The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Do I have to go off and find her words, to type them into your face here?

Yes.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Or are you able to recognise the fact that she claimed a greater right to indy by Scotland based on history?

 

No.

[eFestivals]

 

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

Yes.

Done. see above.

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

No.

Then what greater "right" to independence was she claiming Scotland to have that London does not?

She was clearly claiming a greater right based on something.

 

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

Done. see above.

Then what greater "right" to independence was she claiming Scotland to have that London does not?

She was clearly claiming a greater right based on something.

 

Thanks for your efforts which, sadly for you, prove me 100% correct.

Nicola made no claim, insinuation, reference, or mention of ethnicity or history. 

Which is why you had to follow her words with some convoluted nonsense to try & back up your delusional claim.

[eFestivals]

27 minutes ago, LJS said:

Thanks for your efforts which, sadly for you, prove me 100% correct.

Nicola made no claim, insinuation, reference, or mention of ethnicity or history. 

Which is why you had to follow her words with some convoluted nonsense to try & back up your delusional claim.

 

So please, prove yourself right ...

Please explain to me what the greater right to independence she was claiming is based on...?

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

So please, prove yourself right ...

Please explain to me what the greater right to independence she was claiming is based on...?

My interpretation of her words would be that Scotland is now, presently, at this moment in time, a nation made up of all who choose to live here regardless of race, gender, religion , sexuality etc etc.

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by LJS

[Comfy Bean]

6 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

Done. see above.

Then what greater "right" to independence was she claiming Scotland to have that London does not?

She was clearly claiming a greater right based on something.

 

I thought I'd helped out yesterday by reminding you of the question we are discussing. The one about the country and whether or not it should be independent :-)

If it helps, replace your word London with Inverness and hopefully you might realise how daft you sound.

I don't know why you are using London,  we'll I do, in place of any other scottish town or city but if nicola sturgeon was claiming Stirling or kent shouldn't be dragged out of the eu I would assume she was on the wind up.

You tried this a while back when you refused to accept Scotland was even a country.

It is, Inverness is a city within Scotland. Hopefully this helps :-)

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

My interpretation of her words would be that Scotland is now, presently, at this moment in time, a nation made up of all choose who choose to live here regardless of race, gender, religion , sexuality etc etc.

how does how you choose to think of yourself give the people of Scotland a greater right to independence than other people?

[eFestivals]

 

23 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

If it helps, replace your word London with Inverness and hopefully you might realise how daft you sound.

So do you want to provide me with the approved list of who is allowed to self-determine their future and who isn't, and what the criteria is you've used for that list?

Or, if it helps, replace the word Inverness with San Marino, or Liechtenstein, or even Luxembourg.

The choice of civic independence is a choice of people, comfy. All that is necessary are people.

 

23 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I don't know why you are using London

because that was the comparison Sturgeon used.

 

23 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

You tried this a while back when you refused to accept Scotland was even a country.

It's just a label, a word.

And in all practical terms it's just not. It's a glorified county council. But how you choose to regard your region is up to you.

But it gives you no extra "right". Sturgeon claimed an extra right.

How you choose to regard your region is up to you, no differently to how others might regard theirs. And if people in another region regard their future as indy that puts them in exactly the same place as you.

And you still don't have a greater right.

The right is Westminster's to give or not, to Scotland, to London, or to Clacton-on-Sea if that's what Westminster wishes to allow. The only "right" is Westminster's.

Meanwhile, Sturgeon is claiming a greater right for Scottish people than for other people, because Scottish people are special and deserve more than other people, just because...?

In the civic world everyone is equal with their rights.

When extra rights are claimed and nation is proclaimed, it's blood and soil.

 

[LJS]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

how does how you choose to think of yourself give the people of Scotland a greater right to independence than other people?

Personally, if the people of Liverpool wish to pursue independence, I have no issue with that. However, it does not have an elected parliament with a mandate to seek a second independence referendum in the situation we currently find ourselves in.

Ultimately, the smaller the unit, the more silly claims for independence become, as you yourself have demonstrated a number of times by inviting us into your bedroom.

[LJS]

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

When extra rights are claimed and nation is proclaimed, it's blood and soil.

 

Neil, You are now being an arse.

 

I suggest you stop being an arse before you bring the Austrian chap with the wee moustache into it.  

 

Although I must admire your powers of deduction, getting all this from St. Nic stating that Scotland id a nation not a region.

Astonishing

[eFestivals]

28 minutes ago, LJS said:

Personally, if the people of Liverpool wish to pursue independence, I have no issue with that. However, it does not have an elected parliament with a mandate to seek a second independence referendum in the situation we currently find ourselves in.

That 'mandate' is simply permission for them to pursue that objective. Nothing about that mandate gives a greater right to the fulfilment of that objective.

So personally, you recognise any civic grouping's equal right to self-determine. That's good. It supports your claim of being a civic nationalist.

But perhaps you can tell me why Nicola is thinking Scots have a greater right than other people do? Not better supporting reasons than others might provide such as the mandate, but something that is a "right"? And how that might be civic?

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, LJS said:

Neil, You are now being an arse.

 

I suggest you stop being an arse before you bring the Austrian chap with the wee moustache into it.  

 

Although I must admire your powers of deduction, getting all this from St. Nic stating that Scotland id a nation not a region.

Astonishing

she stated it was a nation and that being a nation inferred greater rights.

But it doesn't, not in the civic world. In the civic world, a right you grant yourself your grant all others, equally.

So she's left the civic world, to refer to Scotland's historic and ethnic past as a nation, and claim a greater right via it.

My line above that you quoted is perfect.

 

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

she stated it was a nation

She did and most residents of Scotland would agree with her along with a great many residents of England I should imagine

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and that being a nation inferred greater rights.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. But the relevant point is that Nations are generally self governing and cities are generally not. They are generally perceived differently. There are of course exception (like Scotland & San Marino) 

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

But it doesn't, not in the civic world. In the civic world, a right you grant yourself your grant all others, equally.

The greater right that Scotland has is in the mandate from the electorate of Scotland. And frankly its an almost irrelevant poit because there is no one (or virtually no one) proclaiming the "right" of Liverpool or London to be Independent. 

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So she's left the civic world,

No she hasn't.

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

to refer to Scotland's historic and ethnic past as a nation,

quote me one reference to Scotland's historic past - or Scotland's ethnic past.

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and claim a greater right via it.

The right is through a democratic mandate.

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

My line above that you quoted is perfect.

 

 Blood & soil?

Pish & havers mair like it!

[eFestivals]

26 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. But the relevant point is that Nations are generally self governing and cities are generally not. They are generally perceived differently. There are of course exception (like Scotland & San Marino) 

Sturgeon's whole take was that Scotland had a greater right.

Yep, nations are generally self-governing. Scotland is a nation that isn't, so can't be compared to the normal in the way that you've done.

Ultimately, it's just a region where some people would like to be indy. That's fair enough. I'm happy for you to have that right of self-determination no more or less than I am any other group with the same urge.

Sturgeon is not. She believes Scotland's people has a right to self-determination above others. That was clear from what she said.

She's welcome to claim that "right" if she likes, but there's not a jot of anything civic about it.

 

[LJS]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Sturgeon's whole take was that Scotland had a greater right.

The only right she talked about was "the "right of Scotland to consider the option of Independence" do you dispute that right?  By allowing the 2014 referendum Westminster has already accepted  that right.  

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yep, nations are generally self-governing. Scotland is a nation that isn't, so can't be compared to the normal in the way that you've done.

Yes it can. And as above our right to "consider the option of independence" has already been conceded.

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Ultimately, it's just a region where some people would like to be indy. That's fair enough. I'm happy for you to have that right of self-determination no more or less than I am any other group with the same urge.

That's fine. I agree.

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Sturgeon is not. She believes Scotland's people has a right to self-determination above others. That was clear from what she said.

No it wasn't.  

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

She's welcome to claim that "right" if she likes, but there's not a jot of anything civic about it.

 

I agree that there was no claim in this particular interview to civic nationalism just as there was absolutely nothing said to suggest any sort of ethnic nationalism. This was not a discussion about the sort off Nation Scotland should be or on what it should be founded. However, what we do know from elsewhere is that the SNP's claim for Independence is based on winning the support of the majority of all people, Scottish or not, who make up modern Scotland.

You have fabricated your blood & soil nonsense from a web of precisely nothing.  

[Comfy Bean]

We could be heading for a new low here, and that's saying something :-)

I wanted to add that I think Wales is a country as is England plus Canada to name but a few.

We are also all jock tamsons bairns at the end of the day.

In a bizarre twist nicola sturgeon is arguing for us to be part of the wider European family after the separatists voted for us to leave.

Lest we forget that all 32 council regions in Scotland voted to remain in Europe. Our parliament then handed her a mandate to fight on although Ruth abstained even though she has campaigned in favour of Scotland being in the eu all her life. Noticeably she is on record as saying her country should vote to remain in the UK to guarantee our continuing membership of the eu. From what I can gather she then abstained with a straight face while probably posing on a tank waving the 'jack.

No amount of neils squirrel chat here will change that fact :-(

I have yet to meet anyone anywhere who doesn't regard Scotland as a country. I think the relevant clue here was in the indy question.

[LJS]

 

 

[kaosmark2]

Bristol is more equipped for independence from GB than Scotland.

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

She did and most residents of Scotland would agree with her along with a great many residents of England I should imagine

Yep, I can't disagree.

But it's an idea that in the civic world carries no greater rights over any other civic grouping.

 

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

And as above our right to "consider the option of independence" has already been conceded.

Nope. Not a "right".

A single opportunity where Scotland was permitted to consider the option was granted by Westminster.

When you have to lie, you know you're wrong.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

That's fine. I agree.

Then you disagree with Sturgeon.

So please tell me what's wrong about her claim of nation and greater right. 

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

I agree that there was no claim in this particular interview to civic nationalism just as there was absolutely nothing said to suggest any sort of ethnic nationalism.

She claimed a greater right to indy for Scotland than (say) London.

There is nothing civic about claiming greater rights for yourself than you'll grant others. Mostly it's called fascism.

She claimed a greater right to indy, and claimed that was because Scotland is 'a nation' - a historical-ethnic fact, and not it's current status.

Blood and soil.

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

She claimed a greater right to indy for Scotland than (say) London.

There is nothing civic about claiming greater rights for yourself than you'll grant others. Mostly it's called fascism.

She claimed a greater right to indy, and claimed that was because Scotland is 'a nation' - a historical-ethnic fact, and not it's current status.

Blood and soil.

Fascism now, Hitler on his way. I'll leave you with your delusions. Enjoy your day. 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

We could be heading for a new low here, and that's saying something :-)

I wanted to add that I think Wales is a country as is England plus Canada to name but a few.

We are also all jock tamsons bairns at the end of the day.

In a bizarre twist nicola sturgeon is arguing for us to be part of the wider European family after the separatists voted for us to leave.

Lest we forget that all 32 council regions in Scotland voted to remain in Europe. Our parliament then handed her a mandate to fight on although Ruth abstained even though she has campaigned in favour of Scotland being in the eu all her life. Noticeably she is on record as saying her country should vote to remain in the UK to guarantee our continuing membership of the eu. From what I can gather she then abstained with a straight face while probably posing on a tank waving the 'jack.

No amount of neils squirrel chat here will change that fact :-(

I have yet to meet anyone anywhere who doesn't regard Scotland as a country. I think the relevant clue here was in the indy question.

Lest we forget, the SNP have so far only proclaimed their deep love of the EU with "we're better than other Europeans" conditions attached.

Funnily enough, they claim extra rights there too, just as i've been talking about. The SNP love the EU only if they have special rights and privileges above what other members have. It was all documented in the white paper.

Meanwhile, whether or not anyone regards Scotland as a country isn't the point, it's Sturgeon's claim that how Scotland is regarded gives extra rights. There's fuck all that's civic in claiming yourself more special than others.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

 

 

it's where we go together with the extra rights we claim over other humans.

Yeah, we love equality.