The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

The Chomsky quote's been picked up by the Grauniad.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/25/scottish-referendum-noam-chomsky-yes-bowie-no-independence

"Chomsky is well known for being a passionate critic of nationalism in its many guises. "Nationalism has a way of oppressing others," he once cautioned an audience in Govan back in 1990. So what has changed? Probably nothing, and that's why it's interesting. Chomsky is giving an entirely consistent nod to the anti-nationalist case for Scottish independence, a view that is widely held on the ground but has had almost no expression in the media or among the campaign leaders. Remember that the question before voters is not about nationalism but about independence"

It seems to me that this campaign is a bit different from the ordinary political stuff. On the ground it seems to me to be transcending & even sometimes ignoring the political parties.

Am I slightly mad? Or is that your experience too?

[Buff124]

Yep, but only in the past few weeks,when there was a wave of people who slipped their support for Yes into an otherwise routine conversation, or stuck the Yes logo on their FB page. People one would not expect.

The grassroots campaigning teams set up last autumn are now virtually autonomous and self-sustaining, indeed they are themselves creating more teams.

The whole things on the verge of going viral, if it hasn't already.

[LJS]

It's really quite exciting

[Buff124]

It's really quite exciting

Exciting ? I'm still getting used to it almost overnight becoming socially acceptable in polite company

[LJS]

Exciting ? I'm still getting used to it almost overnight becoming socially acceptable in polite company

you know Neil will not like this sort of talk

p.s. polite company? where you find that?

[kaosmark2]

p.s. polite company? where you find that?

Outside Scotland

[eFestivals]

Remember that the question before voters is not about nationalism but about independence

and yet that independence exists no matter where any border is drawn.

Democracy is about people, not imaginary lines that are drawn or accepted to provide the 'democractic' result that you want.

[eFestivals]

you know Neil will not like this sort of talk

It's only vacuous idiocy I dislike, no matter where it's from.

[LJS]

and yet that independence exists no matter where any border is drawn.

Democracy is about people, not imaginary lines that are drawn or accepted to provide the 'democractic' result that you want.

Correct. But the border between Scotland & England has not been drawn for that purpose, has it?

[eFestivals]

Correct. But the border between Scotland & England has not been drawn for that purpose, has it?

it's being 'resurrected' for that purpose.

[Comfy Bean]

I do genuinely appreciate the amount of time you devote to this thread, otherwise it would just be me, LJS and Comfy endlessly agreeing with each other

Agreed.

[LJS]

I must agree & for all that I disagree with much of what you say, Neil, you have been responsible for making me read a lot more than I had previously.

Have a good Sunday everyone

[LJS]

excellent column in today's Observer by Kevin McKenna..

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/27/scottish-independence-tackle-poverty-snp-distribute-wealth

here is a short extract - pretty much sums up my feelings

As we approach referendum day on 18 September, two categories of questions will dominate the hustings and the media. We should certainly be concerned by both but the degree to which each exercises us probably defines our outlook on life.

One of them concerns the economy and all its related issues: will we be better off in an independent Scotland? Will our jobs be threatened? How much will stuff cost? Will my pension be adversely affected?

The other will mainly be concerned with how independence will affect others and, as such, will tell us if independence is actually worth fighting for.

If Scotland can become one of the 10 most affluent countries in the world, as it is claimed by the SNP, then the biggest challenge independence will bring is redistributing that wealth fairly.

The eradication of poverty, especially child poverty, in a land of plenty must be the top priority in the new, just society that the Scottish Nationalists promise us will follow after independence is gained.

Something will have to change, but if all we are concerned about is how much more money we can each make out of independence, then let's simply forget about it.

…

It's simply not good enough to claim that an independent Scotland would be the sixth most buoyant economy in the world when 250,000 of its children are still starting life three goals down. If this pattern of inequality and unfairness does not change, then the arguments provoked by the independence debate will have been meaningless.

Edited April 27, 2014 by LJS

[Buff124]

and yet that independence exists no matter where any border is drawn.

Democracy is about people, not imaginary lines

Okay, suppose there were no borders. What then ? Where would power be located ? Centrally, regionally or locally ?

The desirability of power to govern being located at its most appropriate level has been mentioned before here. For instance, should Westminster be in charge of cutting the grass in my local park ? No, of course not. That can dealt with at a much more local level.

So , if powers are geographically stratified, then it means that locations have to be defined. Now, what is a good way to define a location ? Tough one, that.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Buff124

[OneLittleFish]

I've been getting involved with the debate on social media a lot and constantly find myself getting personal abuse from a lot of Yes voters. I've been down the pub recently, the referendum has come up in conversation and I've had people shouting in my face telling me how my country is ashamed of me and so forth.

Why is the yes campaign so afraid of reasoned debate?

[Buff124]

I've been getting involved with the debate on social media a lot and constantly find myself getting personal abuse from a lot of Yes voters. I've been down the pub recently, the referendum has come up in conversation and I've had people shouting in my face telling me how my country is ashamed of me and so forth.

Why is the yes campaign so afraid of reasoned debate?

I'm sure Neil and all other contributors would wish you a very warm welcome to this occasionally reasoned debate.

[LJS]

I've been getting involved with the debate on social media a lot and constantly find myself getting personal abuse from a lot of Yes voters. I've been down the pub recently, the referendum has come up in conversation and I've had people shouting in my face telling me how my country is ashamed of me and so forth.

Why is the yes campaign so afraid of reasoned debate?

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. Whilst there are a lot of crazies online - on both sides I might add - although I have already stated on here that there are probably more on the Yes side.

I tend to avoid these kind of debates and indeed on the one occasion I got involved recently it was to try & talk some sense into pro-Yes folk.

As far as your experience in the pub is concerned, I have not experienced this type of reaction on either side.

I am assuming it wasn't a pub full of hearts fans?

If you are mad enough to read through the debate that has been going on here, you will see my view is that you can absolutely be a patriotic Scot & still support the union & I have no time for anyone who suggests otherwise.

The crazy thing is it's totally self defeating. If I were you I would now be even more determined to vote no as a result of the stupidity you encountered today.

Whatever the result in September we will all have to live together to make the best of whatever future we wake up to.

Edited April 27, 2014 by LJS

[OneLittleFish]

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. Whilst they are a lot of crazies online - on both sides I might add - although I have already stated on here that there are probably more on the Yes side.

I tend to avoid these kind of debates and indeed on the one occasion I got involved recently it was to try & talk some sense into pro-Yes folk.

As far as your experience in the pub is concerned, I have not experienced this type of reaction on either side.

I am assuming it wasn't a pub full of hearts fans?

If you are mad enough to read through the debate that has been going on here, you will see my view is that you can absolutely be a patriotic Scot & still support the union & I have no time for anyone who suggests otherwise.

The crazy thing is it's totally self defeating. If I were you I would now be even more determined to vote no as a result of the stupidity you encountered today.

Whatever the result in September we will all have to live together to make the best of whatever future we wake up to.

I'm actually enjoying reading through this thread as it seems a lot more sane.

If I've been discussing the referendum whilst out and about I make it clear early on that both sides are just wanting to see what they believe is best for Scotland to avoid some confrontation about it. However the closer we are getting to the referendum the uglier things are definately getting - I've even received namecalling along the lines of "You can't call yourself a proper Scotsman etc" from someone heavily involved in the Yes campaign (which I will leave there as it just leads away from the proper debate).

I'm quite sure that there's people on the Better Together side who takes things far too far as well.

Think I'l stick to the debate on here for just now, eFestivals thankfully seems to lend itself to rational and reasoned debate (most of the time)!

[LJS]

Welcome aboard.

Poor Neil has been flying the Union flag on his own much of the time. It will be good to have another voice.

[LJS]

I've been getting involved with the debate on social media a lot and constantly find myself getting personal abuse from a lot of Yes voters. I've been down the pub recently, the referendum has come up in conversation and I've had people shouting in my face telling me how my country is ashamed of me and so forth.

Why is the yes campaign so afraid of reasoned debate?

I showed this to my daughter - she is 16 & in 5th year so will be one of the under 18's getting a vote. She is very much a Yes and very much in the minority in her year.

She told me she takes considerable abuse because of her opinion. She didn't seem too fussed about it & just seemed to accept that that was what happened.

Now this is not an attempt to excuse or minimise anyone's behaviour. I just find it all a bit depressing. Particularly the fact she seemed to think it was normal.

If you have read any of this thread you will see that my Yes vote is not about grabbing the oil, or being suddenly better off, It's about making a better & fairer society as much as anything.

I will be disappointed if we gain independence & all the warnings of BT prove to be true & prevent iScotland achieving that.

I will be a million times more disappointed if what prevents iScotland achieving that is internal division & bitterness.

[kaosmark2]

Poor Neil has been flying the Union flag on his own much of the time. It will be good to have another voice.

Well I've been posting, but I'm more against-secession rather than pro-union.

[LJS]

Well I've been posting, but I'm more against-secession rather than pro-union.

No offence intended ( I did say "much of the time")

I'm trying to work out if there's a big difference between anti-secession & pro union...

Does it mean you oppose independence but you think the Union is a bit rubbish?

[kaosmark2]

No offence intended ( I did say "much of the time")

I'm trying to work out if there's a big difference between anti-secession & pro union...

Does it mean you oppose independence but you think the Union is a bit rubbish?

Yup.

[eFestivals]

I must agree & for all that I disagree with much of what you say, Neil, you have been responsible for making me read a lot more than I had previously.

That's a great thing.

I'm not wanting anyone to necessarily change their mind, but I do want people to take the best decision based on good information and not ignorance or bullshit. The best results come from the best information.

There's no point of anyone voting yes because they think Alex is going to put £300k in their personal bank account*. That would just create an independent country full of very pissed off people that didn't want to be independent, and that's no good for anyone.

(* I'm not trying to suggest he's said exactly that, nor that anyone is likely to daft enough to have thought he meant that [tho given the UK electorate, never say never ]. It's for illustration).

Edited April 28, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

excellent column in today's Observer by Kevin McKenna..

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/27/scottish-independence-tackle-poverty-snp-distribute-wealth

here is a short extract - pretty much sums up my feelings

It's lovely & fluffy but a meaningless piece.

For exactly the same reasons why poverty doesn't get tackled in the UK, it won't get tackled in iScotland - just as it hasn't been tackled by the SNP (oh, I forgot, everything about Scottish poverty is Westminster's fault ).

And that's that the majority (or a big enough proportion, anyway) think they already pay more than enough towards those things.

Scotland is not so very different. It's long had an established "none of the above" party in the SNP so the 'UKIP effect' is far less likely to show up there, but UKIP still look like getting over 50% of the support in Scotland as they'll get in England in the Euro Elections.

And the 2015 GE will be amusing to watch in Scotland if everything else were the same, with a massive chuck of "none of the above" voters no longer having much choice for who to vote for. They can't vote for LibDems, because they're now tories.

But because everything in Scotland will not be the same as last time, perhaps that'll get lost beneath the nationalist flag waving ... and those UKIP-ers just love nationalist flag-wavers, even if they don't much like the Scottish ones.