The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

20 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and my point is that that's caused by the cuts from Westminster - and so will end when the Westminster cuts do.

Which isn't likely to be for 4or 5 years at least. By which time Scotland's deficit (according to Gers) is likely to be about half the size it is now.

Quote

The Scottish onshore deficit reduction is happening only because of the UK deficit reduction. The clue is in the fact they're both dropping by about the same percentage each year.

I don't dispute that. I have not attributed credit to anyone in particular. The Scottish government may take some credit but whilst we remain in the UK or is pretty much impossible to unpick that.

Quote

You started off anti-cuts, the very reason you felt indy would be better, and end up celebrating cuts as a way to get you to indy.

I'm still anti cuts & looking at Kevin's expenditure graph expenditure rose slightly last year but (onshore) revenue grew by more demonstrating, as I & others have always said, that you can reduce the deficit without slashing public expenditure. 

Quote

It's another one hundred and eighty, and you're not playing darts.

I would say it's more of a bull's-eye.

Compared to your Bullshit.

[eFestivals]

21 hours ago, LJS said:

Which isn't likely to be for 4or 5 years at least. By which time Scotland's deficit (according to Gers) is likely to be about half the size it is now

Nope. GERS says nor suggests anything like you claim.

The "deficit-gap" part of Scotland's problem is not being cut, only the UK's part of that deficit is.

Why not do the sum I suggested? Making it up from nothing at all is not the intelligent angle.

21 hours ago, LJS said:

demonstrating, as I & others have always said, that you can reduce the deficit without slashing public expenditure. 

PMSL

Spending is being cut, which is why the deficit is falling. FFS. .... Scottish spending grew by a lesser proportional amount than the economic growth and inflation (hence the deficit closing), and Scotland's economic growth was lesser than rUK's.

Scotland fell yet further behind the UK average performance, tho as i've noted above that's very decent anyway given the collapse of the oil sector which is a large part of Scotland's economy.

Edited August 28, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Nope. GERS says nor suggests anything like you claim.

The "deficit-gap" part of Scotland's problem is not being cut, only the UK's part of that deficit is.

The gap is not what matters when talking about the economic viability of an independent Scotland. The absolute deficit is what matters and what matters in the on-shore deficit. And if the trends of the past few years continue, that deficit will continue to reduce. 

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Why not do the sum I suggested? Making it up from nothing at all is not the intelligent angle.

I have "made it up" from Kevin's graphs.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

PMSL

Spending is being cut, which is why the deficit is falling. FFS. .... Scottish spending grew by a lesser proportional amount than the economic growth and inflation (hence the deficit closing), and Scotland's economic growth was lesser than rUK's.

You are partly correct. The figures I have used for Scotland's spending are again taken from one of Kevin's graphs. These are "real terms" figures which I assume means they are adjusted for inflation. Last year expenditure rose slightly - this is the pacific period I referenced so you are wrong about that. Where you are right is that over the past few years it had gone down more than it has up & we are now sitting at about the same level as 2009/10.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Scotland fell yet further behind the UK average performance, tho as i've noted above that's very decent anyway given the collapse of the oil sector which is a large part of Scotland's economy.

Which is why I've taken oil out of the equation. 

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, LJS said:

The gap is not what matters when talking about the economic viability of an independent Scotland. The absolute deficit is what matters and what matters in the on-shore deficit. And if the trends of the past few years continue, that deficit will continue to reduce. 

while the deficit gap is not what matters when talking about the economic viability of an independent Scotland - becauise it's the whole deficit which counts - it's still the case that not a jot of the deficit gap is being tackled.

Which is hardly surprising. That deficit gap is created by the extra money that Scotland has to spend, and the only way it'll be reduced is by returning about £9Bn of that money.

If the trends of the past few years continue, only the UK part of the deficit will reduce, because the trend is the UK deficit reducing and not Scotland's deficit gap.

These are the facts.

You don't do facts.

Edited August 29, 2016 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

A "listening exercise". Did they not hear the result in 2014? Here's a reminder loud and clear: YOU LOST, HEAVILY.

In the most perfect set of circumstances too no less!

Bless their little cotton socks.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/02/snp-nicola-sturgeon-to-hold-away-day-for-all-mps-to-bolster-case-for-independence

 

 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, russycarps said:

A "listening exercise". Did they not hear the result in 2014? Here's a reminder loud and clear: YOU LOST, HEAVILY.

In the most perfect set of circumstances too no less!

Bless their little cotton socks.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/02/snp-nicola-sturgeon-to-hold-away-day-for-all-mps-to-bolster-case-for-independence

 

 

I know Russy, politicians listening! Whatever next?

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, russycarps said:

A "listening exercise". Did they not hear the result in 2014? Here's a reminder loud and clear: YOU LOST, HEAVILY.

In the most perfect set of circumstances too no less!

Bless their little cotton socks.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/02/snp-nicola-sturgeon-to-hold-away-day-for-all-mps-to-bolster-case-for-independence

 

 

Hey Russ - thanks for the loud and clear reminder 

Listening to voters is how the SNP roll and it seems to work ok for them. 

" Patiently and respectfully " hearing the concerns of the NO voters seems a sensible tactic to me but it`s all about opinions.

Have a look at support for indy in the 16 - 35 age bracket......you won`t like it !

The path the SNP are taking seems quite sensible to me. Plus the EU result will sway some previous NO voters.... not to mention the ongoing Tory Govts.

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, LJS said:

I know Russy, politicians listening! Whatever next?

As russy has pointed out, its a politician not listening rather than listening. 

If she was listening she'd have to admit there's no greater desire for Indy than 2 years ago.

As ever, the facts are twisted to fit a preset desire.

[LJS]

The SNP are constantly being criticised for taking their eye off the ball as far as the day to day governance of Scotland is concerned because all they care about is independence, so when Nicola Sturgeon devoted all but 48 of her 4573 word speech today outlining the Scottish Government's plans for the next year to subjects such as education, health, the economy etc with the remaining 48 words devoted to an oblique reference to independence, I assume d this would be widely welcomed.

Imagine my surprise to fine all three "opposition" parties attacking the SNP for their obsession with independence. 

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

The SNP are constantly being criticised for taking their eye off the ball as far as the day to day governance of Scotland is concerned because all they care about is independence, so when Nicola Sturgeon devoted all but 48 of her 4573 word speech today outlining the Scottish Government's plans for the next year to subjects such as education, health, the economy etc with the remaining 48 words devoted to an oblique reference to independence, I assume d this would be widely welcomed.

Imagine my surprise to fine all three "opposition" parties attacking the SNP for their obsession with independence. 

Their obsession with independence is what has caused Sturgeon to have to backtrack. Did you miss that bit?

She's cried wolf one too many times now. That game is over for her.

[Comfy Bean]

Or....the unionist parties have little else to offer and continually bang on about indy ref 2 while Sturgeon looks to take care of business for the 3rd term in a row or whatever they are up to now. Education seems to be at the top of her agenda.

No forthcoming indy ref has meant weeks have now passed without Ruth being pictured on a tank waving a union jack.

 

[Comfy Bean]

The game is over lol.

I'll file that with...Salmond will die a failure. 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

The game is over lol.

I'll file that with...Salmond will die a failure. 

Good to see your attention to detail is as poor as ever.

I didn't say your Indy dream was over, I said Sturgeon's ability to threaten the UK with it was.

I'm guessing that's gonna cost you in four and a half years too, tho that's only a guess. The point now is that the leverage has gone from Nicola's armoury.

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Or....the unionist parties have little else to offer and continually bang on about indy ref 2 while Sturgeon looks to take care of business for the 3rd term in a row or whatever they are up to now. Education seems to be at the top of her agenda.

No forthcoming indy ref has meant weeks have now passed without Ruth being pictured on a tank waving a union jack.

 

The financially competent parties have £10bn a year to offer.

And Scotland sucks it up more than it does Sturgeon.

Never mind, eh?

[eFestivals]

(I stumbled on this when double-checking info from another poll, but having seen this it was too good to ignore )

So, what makes a Scot?

Scottish born and bred or Scottish parents. One Scottish parent only just counts, but living there don't count for shit. So much for civic.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/07/what-makes-person-scottish/

I particularly love the part where 'two Scottish parents' doesn't count for Alastair Campbell,  and that 'grew up in Scotland' apparently makes someone Scottish - unless they're called Tony Blair - and that having once farted north of the border makes Rod Stewart more Scottish than Campbell and Blair.

 

[eFestivals]

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

That's kind of her job.

It is, and I wouldn't (from her perspective) expect anything less of her.

But my point in mentioning it was that she used the words herself the other day about what her/the SNP's reaction to brexit would be.

So if she doesn't follow thru with having an indy vote, that HAS to logically mean that brexit-ing is better for Scotland than indy.

Do keep up.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

you know this?

You know this too?

I'm saying that she seems to know it, by her own change of position.

Her previous statements have said they'll be stronger action from her than the action she's taking towards a new vote.

And, BTW, there's a reason why she's not singing from the rooftops about a warm and cosy future in the EU, can you guess what it is? There's things she knows that she's not saying, and for those not sucked up into a dogmatic position it's pretty easy to know what she knows.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

You really think so?

If she doesn't go forwards with another attempt at indy, then the 'best for Scotland' HAS TO BE brexit in her view.

That will be her endorsement. That will be her owning the decision to brexit and not indyref. Her own political future is tied to the choice she makes about this.

She's boxed herself in to a position where (based on current polling) she loses no matter which way she goes. If she goes with an indy vote and loses that's indy done forever, and if she goes with brexit that's her saying the union is better than indy. Either way you don't get indy.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

I know you have this dream that the SNP will turn against the EU. As far as I can see it is based on guesswork & conjecture.  

Jezza did his flip yesterday. How's your Jezza fandom today?

It's guesswork, yep - but it doesn't take a genius or fantasies, it really doesn't. It just takes thinking thru the realities.

And when the reality is that the EU won't stump up the £10Bn a year Scotland needs and Sturgeon isn't prepared to plunge Scotland into poverty to have the title of the killer-queen of Scotland, there's only one place for her to go from her current pro-EU position.

Cos there's nowhere safer and more cosy for her than blaming others for Scotland's problems.

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Of course their enthusiasm for the EU  doesn't fit in with your belief that Nationalists feed off grievance, and wanting to co-operate with other nations doesn't fit in well with that. But that's because you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the Scottish independence movement. You always have & it would appear you always will. 

That's simply her using the EU as the good cop against the bad cop thing she does against Westminster. Really, don't you know that?

(that nasty nasty Westminster which has just had you celebrate its success in expanding the Scottish economy)

I don't doubt there's genuine attachment to the EU founding principles, but when how those principles work in practice are irreconcilable with the reality of Scotland's position, something is going to have to give.

And as the EU won't be giving Scotland special terms (of the huge size Scotland would need*), where's a girl to go...?

(* I don't doubt the EU would be prepared to make some minor-ish concessions, but they're never going to welcome a country with a 10% deficit or that fundamentally rejects the Euro)

 

10 hours ago, LJS said:

 Sorry, I don't understand this. I was doing so well but you have descended into obscure waffling again. 

She's boxed herself in. She's said she'll do what's best for Scotland, and the two options are indy or brexit.

If she doesn't hold an indy vote, that's her implicitly saying that the union is best and that brexit is best. That puts her in a different place to all other leader-in-power-politicians.

May is not having to say 'brexit is best', she's only having to say "I'll do what you've said you want" and via that she's personally absolved from all consequences of following thru with brexit.

The same will not be true with Sturgeon if she avoids indyref2. She'll have personally endorsed it as the best for Scotland.

[LJS]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

(I stumbled on this when double-checking info from another poll, but having seen this it was too good to ignore )

So, what makes a Scot?

Scottish born and bred or Scottish parents. One Scottish parent only just counts, but living there don't count for shit. So much for civic.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/09/07/what-makes-person-scottish/

I particularly love the part where 'two Scottish parents' doesn't count for Alastair Campbell,  and that 'grew up in Scotland' apparently makes someone Scottish - unless they're called Tony Blair - and that having once farted north of the border makes Rod Stewart more Scottish than Campbell and Blair.

 

 I liked this bit...

Anyway the whole thing is just a bit of fun - my answer to most of the questions would be ... "it depends" e.g. if both your parents are Scottish but you had the terrible misfortune to be brought up in England, as far as I am concerned it is your choice whether you consider yourself Scottish or English. I have pretty much no choice - born & brought up in Scotland as were both my parents & all my grandparents & have lived in Scotland all my life. If I went to live in France, I'm guessing I would still consider myself to be écossais. 

The important thing is the nationality you choose counts for little more than deciding what country to support in the World Cup (if you are old enough!!!) I note that your friend the Bishop of Bath has posted figures from the poll suggesting that Yes voters take a more "relaxed" view of what makes people Scottish.

 

Blood & soil my arse.

[LJS]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

It is, and I wouldn't (from her perspective) expect anything less of her.

But my point in mentioning it was that she used the words herself the other day about what her/the SNP's reaction to brexit would be.

So if she doesn't follow thru with having an indy vote, that HAS to logically mean that brexit-ing is better for Scotland than indy.

Do keep up.

 

I'm saying that she seems to know it, by her own change of position.

Her previous statements have said they'll be stronger action from her than the action she's taking towards a new vote.

And, BTW, there's a reason why she's not singing from the rooftops about a warm and cosy future in the EU, can you guess what it is? There's things she knows that she's not saying, and for those not sucked up into a dogmatic position it's pretty easy to know what she knows.

 

If she doesn't go forwards with another attempt at indy, then the 'best for Scotland' HAS TO BE brexit in her view.

That will be her endorsement. That will be her owning the decision to brexit and not indyref. Her own political future is tied to the choice she makes about this.

She's boxed herself in to a position where (based on current polling) she loses no matter which way she goes. If she goes with an indy vote and loses that's indy done forever, and if she goes with brexit that's her saying the union is better than indy. Either way you don't get indy.

 

Jezza did his flip yesterday. How's your Jezza fandom today?

It's guesswork, yep - but it doesn't take a genius or fantasies, it really doesn't. It just takes thinking thru the realities.

And when the reality is that the EU won't stump up the £10Bn a year Scotland needs and Sturgeon isn't prepared to plunge Scotland into poverty to have the title of the killer-queen of Scotland, there's only one place for her to go from her current pro-EU position.

Cos there's nowhere safer and more cosy for her than blaming others for Scotland's problems.

 

That's simply her using the EU as the good cop against the bad cop thing she does against Westminster. Really, don't you know that?

(that nasty nasty Westminster which has just had you celebrate its success in expanding the Scottish economy)

I don't doubt there's genuine attachment to the EU founding principles, but when how those principles work in practice are irreconcilable with the reality of Scotland's position, something is going to have to give.

And as the EU won't be giving Scotland special terms (of the huge size Scotland would need*), where's a girl to go...?

(* I don't doubt the EU would be prepared to make some minor-ish concessions, but they're never going to welcome a country with a 10% deficit or that fundamentally rejects the Euro)

 

She's boxed herself in. She's said she'll do what's best for Scotland, and the two options are indy or brexit.

If she doesn't hold an indy vote, that's her implicitly saying that the union is best and that brexit is best. That puts her in a different place to all other leader-in-power-politicians.

May is not having to say 'brexit is best', she's only having to say "I'll do what you've said you want" and via that she's personally absolved from all consequences of following thru with brexit.

The same will not be true with Sturgeon if she avoids indyref2. She'll have personally endorsed it as the best for Scotland.

I'm not sure Nicola has distanced herself from a referendum as much as you claim...

 

Quote

 

NICOLA Sturgeon has warned Theresa May she lacks the mandate to take Scotland out of the single market, after the Prime Minister refused to say whether she would try to keep the UK in.

In a statement to the Scottish Parliament, the First Minister also cautioned MSPs against thinking the impact of June’s vote had been much less catastrophic than predicted.

“Those people who are complacently crowing that the sky has not fallen in on the economy would do well to remember that Brexit has not happened yet – it has not even started,” she said.

Sturgeon said the Scottish Government would do what it could to keep the country as a member of the free-trade zone. The SNP leader also reiterated that Scots must be allowed to “consider independence” if it “becomes clear that our interests cannot be protected within the UK”.

 

I think it is certainly true that Sturgeon would prefer not to go for a referendum if the polls continue to reflect a 6-8% lead for "Naw" as the last 2 have done. However, the way things sit just now, it appears that the Brexit vote has had relatively little effect on the economy. If that changes, as I assume you think it will considering all the stuff you said pre-referendum, then there is every chance that could result in an Indy bounce.

Even if it doesn't, there is good reason to think that with a good campaign Sturgeon could win a second referendum. It's a better starting point than yes had in the last Indy ref - or Leave had in the Eu ref. 

I think her main plan is is to be seen to explore every possibility to nullify the "obsessed with Independence" rhetoric. I think she has more chance of winning over no voters by being seen to be trying everything she can to get a deal for Scotland that protects large parts of the benefits of EU membership. Whether there is any chance of achieving anything like that is highly debatable but ultimately politically irrelevant. She has also managed to effectively force Labour & the Libdems in Scotland to offer her some level of support in her efforts, thus lending them legitimacy.

On balance, I think she is playing a very clever game. There are so many variables that it could still all go horribly wrong for her, but I can't see how she could have played it much better. 

[eFestivals]

29 minutes ago, LJS said:

The important thing is the nationality you choose .....

Blood & soil my arse.

It looks to me from those results that the nationality you might choose for yourself doesn't count for shit in the eyes of plenty of others, and your personal arse revolves around that blood and soil more than you're willing to admit under the cover of 'civic'.

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm not sure Nicola has distanced herself from a referendum as much as you claim...

It's changed from 'highly likely' to 'hmmmm, I'll have to think about it some more'.

There's a reason why, and that reason is more than just the polls too.

 

22 minutes ago, LJS said:

I think it is certainly true that Sturgeon would prefer not to go for a referendum if the polls continue to reflect a 6-8% lead for "Naw" as the last 2 have done. However, the way things sit just now, it appears that the Brexit vote has had relatively little effect on the economy. If that changes, as I assume you think it will considering all the stuff you said pre-referendum, then there is every chance that could result in an Indy bounce.

I don't discount that post-full-brexit there might be a hit that changes minds towards indy in Scotland (tho I actually think it would have the opposite effect), but....

Sturgeon's plan was a ref before the a50+2 years full-brexit with Scotland (somehow) 'keeping' the UK's membership as its own or some other fudge that keeps Scotland as-good-as inside the EU at all times.

If having the support for indy takes full-brexit to happen first, that's not the plan as she's said it so far.

I realise that the prize of indy is the same at any time to her so if it panned out like that she'd be feeling chuffed and not having failed in any way, but are you able to recognise that a post-full-brexit ref would be her having slipped from what she's said?

 

22 minutes ago, LJS said:

Even if it doesn't, there is good reason to think that with a good campaign Sturgeon could win a second referendum. It's a better starting point than yes had in the last Indy ref - or Leave had in the Eu ref. 

A good campaign would require good finances, and that's simply beyond what is possible without swinging cuts or massive tax rises.

 

22 minutes ago, LJS said:

I think her main plan is is to be seen to explore every possibility to nullify the "obsessed with Independence" rhetoric. I think she has more chance of winning over no voters by being seen to be trying everything she can to get a deal for Scotland that protects large parts of the benefits of EU membership. Whether there is any chance of achieving anything like that is highly debatable but ultimately politically irrelevant. She has also managed to effectively force Labour & the Libdems in Scotland to offer her some level of support in her efforts, thus lending them legitimacy.

On balance, I think she is playing a very clever game. There are so many variables that it could still all go horribly wrong for her, but I can't see how she could have played it much better. 

She's played a good game, mostly - but she got over-excited in the heat of the moment and made too-grand claims, and now she's fucked up with her 'best for Scotland' thing too, which will be her saying 'brexit is best for scotland'.

She's gotta hope that support for indy will rise, cos she's cried wolf at Westminster for the last time (that they'll bite, anyhow), and that 'brexit is best' will stick too. I guess the good thing from her point of view is that if she's going to be damaged goods she might as well try to have the damage for taking Scotland indy but bankrupt than for other things.

[LJS]

50 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It looks to me from those results that the nationality you might choose for yourself doesn't count for shit in the eyes of plenty of others, and your personal arse revolves around that blood and soil more than you're willing to admit under the cover of 'civic'.

Not interested in blood or soil mate, you got me totally wrong there.What blood & soil Nationalist woudl spend most of his adult life voting against independence? 

You can't accept my position is genuine because it destroys your "they're just the same as Ukip" argument..

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

Not interested in blood or soil mate, you got me totally wrong there.What blood & soil Nationalist woudl spend most of his adult life voting against independence? 

You can't accept my position is genuine because it destroys your "they're just the same as Ukip" argument..

I very deliberately said "revolves", to imply something different for you personally than adherence to 'blood and soil'.

I'm pointing out that whatever your personal feelings, it's a pertinent factor (tho often [even 'mostly'] unspoken) in the indy movement  supporters' motivations (as that polling clearly indicates), and therefore your own attachment to that indy movement is revolving round that 'blood and soil' whether you want to or not.
(we could argue about the extent, but it would be foolish to think it wholely absent)

And there's strong and logical reasons for why it's (vocalised) low level right now and is unlikely to remain that way if an indy vote were won. There's lesser reason currently to assert 'Scottishness' within Scottish politics, as 'Scottishness' is not the over-riding politics (due to Westminster holding sovereignty) ... but much like how the brexit vote has seen an emboldening of racist/xenophobic views, an indy vote is highly likely to see a similar emboldening of 'Scottishness', tho the harsh financial factors that come as a result of indy are likely to make it more-so in Scotland.

After all, when you'll have just won a vote 'for Scotland', the desire will be to improve the lot of Scots ... and with far less money to go round, those Scots who've voted for Scotland won't be keen to see Scotland's shrunk money paying for 'foreigners' at the expense of 'true Scots'.

You might wish to believe that indy people in Scotland think of anyone in Scotland as 'a Scot', yet that poll says that's just not true in the eyes of most Scots.

(and don't forget, it'll be all Scots that pressurise an indy govt, not merely 'indy supporting Scots' - so even if you wish to say that the 'blood and soil Scots' aren't any part of the indy movement so they must be the 'yoons', its still likely to have a strong effect within an indy Scotland).

As I say, I'm not suggesting anything different for Scotland with attitudes than might be the case elsewhere, but I am suggesting that the path you're wishing Scotland to take is one where this side of things will rear its ugly head much more-so than is the case right now.

It would be easy to shrug that off and say 'it ain't gonna happen', but that's the view most would probably have taken towards a rise in racism/xenophobia via a brexit vote.

It's food for thought. More thought about it right now and words and actions in advance to help counter it might be a good idea.

[LJS]

17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I very deliberately said "revolves", to imply something different for you personally than adherence to 'blood and soil'.

I'm pointing out that whatever your personal feelings, it's a pertinent factor (tho often [even 'mostly'] unspoken) in the indy movement  supporters' motivations (as that polling clearly indicates), and therefore your own attachment to that indy movement is revolving round that 'blood and soil' whether you want to or not.
(we could argue about the extent, but it would be foolish to think it wholely absent)

And there's strong and logical reasons for why it's (vocalised) low level right now and is unlikely to remain that way if an indy vote were won. There's lesser reason currently to assert 'Scottishness' within Scottish politics, as 'Scottishness' is not the over-riding politics (due to Westminster holding sovereignty) ... but much like how the brexit vote has seen an emboldening of racist/xenophobic views, an indy vote is highly likely to see a similar emboldening of 'Scottishness', tho the harsh financial factors that come as a result of indy are likely to make it more-so in Scotland.

After all, when you'll have just won a vote 'for Scotland', the desire will be to improve the lot of Scots ... and with far less money to go round, those Scots who've voted for Scotland won't be keen to see Scotland's shrunk money paying for 'foreigners' at the expense of 'true Scots'.

You might wish to believe that indy people in Scotland think of anyone in Scotland as 'a Scot', yet that poll says that's just not true in the eyes of most Scots.

(and don't forget, it'll be all Scots that pressurise an indy govt, not merely 'indy supporting Scots' - so even if you wish to say that the 'blood and soil Scots' aren't any part of the indy movement so they must be the 'yoons', its still likely to have a strong effect within an indy Scotland).

As I say, I'm not suggesting anything different for Scotland with attitudes than might be the case elsewhere, but I am suggesting that the path you're wishing Scotland to take is one where this side of things will rear its ugly head much more-so than is the case right now.

It would be easy to shrug that off and say 'it ain't gonna happen', but that's the view most would probably have taken towards a rise in racism/xenophobia via a brexit vote.

It's food for thought. More thought about it right now and words and actions in advance to help counter it might be a good idea.

Thank you for your wild conjecture.

Enjoy yourself. It's later than you think.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

Thank you for your wild conjecture.

It's not conjecture.

There's the facts of a poll which shows who Scots think are true Scots.

There's also the fact that a victory for nationalism causes stronger actions in 'support' of that demonstrated nationalism.

And your response? Scots are intrinsically better than other people, so it couldn't happen in Scotland.

And you say you're free of blood and soil...?

[LJS]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It's not conjecture.

There's the facts of a poll which shows who Scots think are true Scots.

There's also the fact that a victory for nationalism causes stronger actions in 'support' of that demonstrated nationalism.

And your response? Scots are intrinsically better than other people, so it couldn't happen in Scotland.

A claim I have never made.

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And you say you're free of blood and soil...?

Pretty much, mate. I don't deny that there are some b&s Nats about but they are relics of a bygone era. If they were significant, don't you think we might have seen a bit of a backlash when bastard English settlers robbed us of our Indy a couple of years back?