The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

I see you dodged the bit about the falling deficit. 

Total Public Sector Revenue 2014-15
Scottish onshore revenue was estimated as £51.6 billion (8.0 per cent of UK onshore revenue). This represents £9,600 per person, £400 less than the UK average;
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/03/3692

Total Public Sector Revenue 2015-16
Scotland’s public sector revenue is equivalent to £10,000 per person, £400 less than the UK average, regardless of the inclusion of North Sea revenue. [that's cos there wasn't any]
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/08/2132

Scotland doesn't even reach the UK average-level of contributions, and that part has stayed static in money terms, and the improvement is merely the rate of inflation over that year (which is less than 1%).

Meanwhile, spending fell in real terms - you know, because of that lesser pocket money nasty Westminster has given you (tho still £1,200 per person greater than the UK average) - and increased by just £200M in cash terms.

Which makes the improvement barely there at all, and particularly from a party and supporters who demand that mummy gives them more.

But never mind eh?

Edited September 13, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

9 hours ago, retromoz said:

jeez.....this discussion is STILL happening?!? Its like a Richard Herring podcast about snooker. The first frame was funny! Frame 10 was mildly diverting. By frame 40 you are wondering why you are still listening. Frame 55 it gets funny again. But, now? By frame 79? You are just listening out of habit....

This thread is the forum version of my relationship with this podcast. 

https://www.comedy.co.uk/podcasts/richard_herring_snooker/

Keeping watching .. i'm about to snooker him behind the (Gordon) Brown

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

Keeping watching .. i'm about to snooker him behind the (Gordon) Brown

Really? I'll look forwards to it.

 

[LJS]

6 hours ago, eFestivals said:

which is exactly the point.

Remind me what it is that Sturgeon says that is your own personal mantra too. Might it be "all off Scotland's problems are caused by Westminster, and every positive thing in Scotland is a purely Scottish success"?

Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, independence, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, independence - Ad infinitum.

How's about something else she might say?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-37321639

http://www.thenational.scot/news/nicola-sturgeon-calls-on-uk-government-to-end-uncertainty-about-wave-and-tidal-power-subsidies.22267

http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/165728/sturgeon-unveils-atlantis-resources-world-first-large-scale-tidal-stream-farm-in-scotland-165728.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37276935

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-37295825

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/nicola-sturgeon-welcomes-200m-boost-to-rural-economy-35044158.html

http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/nicola-sturgeon-backs-plans-for-access-to-school-counsellors-1-4225384

http://www.scotsman.com/news/nicola-sturgeon-launches-new-children-s-reading-challenge-1-4207708

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/279273/nicola-sturgeon-put-education-centre-programme-government/

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-to-unveil-plans-to-kickstart-scotland-s-economy-1-4220536

http://www.planningresource.co.uk/article/1408106/sturgeon-puts-planning-housing-infrastructure-heart-programme-government

http://www.thenational.scot/news/housing-associations-welcome-the-end-of-thatchers-right-to-buy-policy-in-scotland.20615
 

6 hours ago, eFestivals said:

You don't like the other stuff, such as "Scotland is more expensive to run and that's why it has a deficit" (so not Westminster's fault after all) and "we'd have to make huge cuts just like Westminster did".

You pretend she never says those awkward things, and instead prefer to stick to the brainless "Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, independence, Scotland, Scotland, Scotland, independence" instead.

see above

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-37321639

http://www.thenational.scot/news/nicola-sturgeon-calls-on-uk-government-to-end-uncertainty-about-wave-and-tidal-power-subsidies.22267

http://www.proactiveinvestors.co.uk/companies/news/165728/sturgeon-unveils-atlantis-resources-world-first-large-scale-tidal-stream-farm-in-scotland-165728.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37276935

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-37295825

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/nicola-sturgeon-welcomes-200m-boost-to-rural-economy-35044158.html

http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/nicola-sturgeon-backs-plans-for-access-to-school-counsellors-1-4225384

http://www.scotsman.com/news/nicola-sturgeon-launches-new-children-s-reading-challenge-1-4207708

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/279273/nicola-sturgeon-put-education-centre-programme-government/

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon-to-unveil-plans-to-kickstart-scotland-s-economy-1-4220536

http://www.planningresource.co.uk/article/1408106/sturgeon-puts-planning-housing-infrastructure-heart-programme-government

http://www.thenational.scot/news/housing-associations-welcome-the-end-of-thatchers-right-to-buy-policy-in-scotland.20615
 

see above

Wow, Scotland has a new toy.

Do you imagine that nowhere else is also getting new toys all the time, as their own economies move forward too (tho perhaps in different ways)?

Did you miss this bit....?

The Scottish government hopes that further growth in the industry will create jobs for people moving from the oil and gas sector.

So not actually an employment positive as such, just the hope it might replace what you're losing.

It's not the first btw, tho i guess it's bigger than the two existing deployments in the bristol channel and a loch(sp?) in NI. The Bristol channel one is a research operation, and in the best location in the world - better for tides than any location Scotland has. The NI one is, I think, commercial.

(with a background in electricity, it's something i follow a little)

If it proves significantly viable - it isn't at the moment, don't forget, it's surviving on subsidies - I guess Scotland will be proud to claim it was at the forefront of what England will deploy around its own coasts, much nearer to where it's needed and so cheaper, and with some of it (Bristol channel) far better suited than anywhere Scotland has.
 

[LJS]

So two outstanding issues from today

1: Blood & soil

you have consistently claimed that a poll that reveals how many people think having one Scottish parent makes you scottish demonstrates the   " indisputable blood and soil attitude from that poll towards Scottishness" Despite constant challenge you have failed to explain this merely relying on assertion rather than argument. 

You've also claimed that all nationalist movements end up being violent when they win- I gave you the Baltic states as an example - you disagree - I can't find any examples (other than the Russians being violent - which hardly counts - can you help me?

 

2: Deficit Reduction

still no proper response to these posts from me.

Quote

 

I would prefer not to base my claims on one year - i took the last 5  years & I took my figures from the guru himself - 

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/gers-story-told-through-graphs.html

Kevin includes 2 detailed graphs  - one of onshore revenue

Now, as i understand it, the deficit is the difference between income & expenditure

which goes like this

year  deficit (£Bn)

11-12      19.5

12-13      19.9

13-14       17.2

14-15       16.1

15-16        14.9

 

Has Kevin got his numbers wrong?  Surely not?

 

 

 

& one of Scottish public spending 

Now, as i understand it, the deficit is the difference between income & expenditure

which goes like this

year  deficit (£Bn)

11-12      19.5

12-13      19.9

13-14       17.2

14-15       16.1

15-16        14.9

 

 

 

Quote

 

As it is deficit as% of GDP that matters, Kevin has a graph for that. The green line is onshore.

 

Clearly showing that if the trend of the past few years continues Scotland's onshore deficit (which is presently pretty much identical to Scotland's total deficit) will take way less than the 70 years you claim to disappear.

You squirrel away at deficit gaps  - the deficit gap matters not a whit to an independent Scotland. The absolute deficit does. 

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, LJS said:

So two outstanding issues from today

1: Blood & soil

you have consistently claimed that a poll that reveals how many people think having one Scottish parent makes you scottish demonstrates the   " indisputable blood and soil attitude from that poll towards Scottishness" Despite constant challenge you have failed to explain this merely relying on assertion rather than argument. 

The questions are - literally, "literally"!!! - about blood and soil and Scotland.

They also show a level of unacceptence as Scottish of those who don't meet the blood and soil criteria.

When 'Scottish' gets to mean power as it will after indy, the idea of what is Scottish is going to be a huuuuge political play.

And it's all very well thinking about the good times and saying it couldn't happen, but life doesn't only have good times. Scapegoating is very standard in human nature in times of pressure.

I am doing nothing more than trying to get you to wake up to yourself. Your very reaction of brushing it off as 'couldn't happen here' is the thing that makes it so dangerous.

 

Quote

You've also claimed that all nationalist movements end up being violent when they win- I gave you the Baltic states as an example - you disagree - I can't find any examples (other than the Russians being violent - which hardly counts - can you help me?

 

2: Deficit Reduction

still no proper response to these posts from me.

 

 

Clearly showing that if the trend of the past few years continues Scotland's onshore deficit (which is presently pretty much identical to Scotland's total deficit) will take way less than the 70 years you claim to disappear.

You squirrel away at deficit gaps  - the deficit gap matters not a whit to an independent Scotland. The absolute deficit does. 

clearly showing that you'll get to about 6%, and stop. I've told you this before.

The reduction in the Scottish deficit is the result of the tory austerity that you say is a failure, and that you object to happening. The fall in the Scottish deficit is nothing more than that and just that.

At the end of UK deficit reduction (if to gidiot's plan, when the UK deficit will be zero) the Scottish deficit will remain at about the amount of supplement that comes to Scotland via Barnett.

You haven't even started on reducing that part of the deficit - the deficit gap - until you're able to match UK revenue raising, where you failed by £400 per-person too-little for both of the last two years.

Edited September 13, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, LJS said:

You've also claimed that all nationalist movements end up being violent when they win- I gave you the Baltic states as an example - you disagree - I can't find any examples (other than the Russians being violent - which hardly counts - can you help me?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia

just for starters.

You're being a deliberate idiot.

[LJS]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia

just for starters.

You're being a deliberate idiot.

Thanks for the link. Could you help this idiot to find the " Huge violence in ... Latvia" that you claimed happened . I can't find any such thing ... but then I am an idiot.

"All I can find is " Additionally, there have been reports of police abuse of detainees and arrestees, poor prison conditions and overcrowding, judicial corruption, discrimination against women, incidents of violence against ethnic minorities, and societal violence and incidents of government discrimination against homosexuals. "

Now none of these things are good but but only one: "incidents of violence against ethnic minorities" comes within a million miles of meeting your description and I'm quite sure even you wouldn't describe it as conclusive proof of   " Huge violence in ... Latvia" or that that whatever violence there was was in any way linked to a nationalist victory.

[LJS]

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The questions are - literally, "literally"!!! - about blood and soil and Scotland.

No they are not. to demonstrate that your fantasy carried a grain of truth we woudl need to know the significance people placed on their Scottishness. That poll tells us diddly squat about that. Indeed the fact that some people profess themselves to be "Scottish not British" but still voted against independence suggests that things are maybe just a wee bit more complex in the real world than in  your rather dense head.

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

They also show a level of unacceptence as Scottish of those who don't meet the blood and soil criteria.

Again, this would only be relevant if there was any evidence that anyone at all though being Scottish was better than beinf say Welsh or English. This poll tells us nothing about that at all. In case its too complex a concept for you, here's an example. I am Scottish  - as I've explained before in every measure used by the poll i am 100% Scottish - no escape> i could claim to be Peruvian or Zambian but that would just be silly. Alternatively I used to work with a girl who was born in France to one French & one Vietnamese parent.  She lives in Scotland, is married to a Scots chap & has a fine son who was born in Scotland. As far as I am concerned he son can reasonably call himself Scottish, British, French or even Vietnamese. I couldn't care less what nationality he chooses because none of them are any better than any other.

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

When 'Scottish' gets to mean power as it will after indy, the idea of what is Scottish is going to be a huuuuge political play.

So you keep saying. You hvae no evidence to back this up. I live here & I don't believe it based on the experience of my huuuuuuuuuge life, 

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And it's all very well thinking about the good times and saying it couldn't happen, but life doesn't only have good times. Scapegoating is very standard in human nature in times of pressure.

It is. Fortunately it tends to predominantly practised by the political right which I am glad to say has little traction in Scotland. Is that guaranteed to last for ever?... of course not & we will certainly have to be wary of it.

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I am doing nothing more than trying to get you to wake up to yourself. Your very reaction of brushing it off as 'couldn't happen here' is the thing that makes it so dangerous.

Sorry just answered that before you asked it. 

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

clearly showing that you'll get to about 6%, and stop. I've told you this before.

Clearly showing no such thing. You have given a scenario where it stops when it gets to 6% based on the UK government ramping up expenditure. If we are independent we will make our own decisions on revenue and expenditure so will not be bound by the actions of the rUK government. (if you think that means I am now supporting austerity, you are , by the way, wrong. )

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The reduction in the Scottish deficit is the result of the tory austerity that you say is a failure, and that you object to happening. The fall in the Scottish deficit is nothing more than that and just that.

See above. The deficit would have started coming down slower had we had sensible economic policies but would by now be falling much quicker. This is of course my opinion. just as the bit above is your opinion.

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

At the end of UK deficit reduction (if to gidiot's plan, when the UK deficit will be zero) the Scottish deficit will remain at about the amount of supplement that comes to Scotland via Barnett.

We have a deficit gap to Germany i would imagine. it doesn't matter because we are not part of Germany.

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You haven't even started on reducing that part of the deficit - the deficit gap - until you're able to match UK revenue raising, where you failed by £400 per-person too-little for both of the last two years.

The deficit is the deficit  I'll repeat yet again the deficit gap is irrelevant to an independent Scotland. The absolute deficit is. And do please remember to check how many of the past 50 years the UK as a whole has not run a deficit.

 You like facts : I'll reduce the argument to 2 facts.

Fact 1: The Scottish onshore deficit ove rthe past 5 years has been falling by around £1bn per year

Fact 2: If this trend continues the deficit will disappear within about 12 years. it will reach manageable proportions much sooner than that .

 

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

Thanks for the link. Could you help this idiot to find the " Huge violence in ... Latvia" that you claimed happened . I can't find any such thing ... but then I am an idiot.

"All I can find is " Additionally, there have been reports of police abuse of detainees and arrestees, poor prison conditions and overcrowding, judicial corruption, discrimination against women, incidents of violence against ethnic minorities, and societal violence and incidents of government discrimination against homosexuals. "

Now none of these things are good but but only one: "incidents of violence against ethnic minorities" comes within a million miles of meeting your description and I'm quite sure even you wouldn't describe it as conclusive proof of   " Huge violence in ... Latvia" or that that whatever violence there was was in any way linked to a nationalist victory.

What don't you recognise about that?

It's much like the upsurge around brexit, as i'm warning about in Scotland, that you say can't happen.

I'm not talking about civil war, but it seems you think i am.

[LJS]

27 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

What don't you recognise about that?

It's much like the upsurge around brexit, as i'm warning about in Scotland, that you say can't happen.

I'm not talking about civil war, but it seems you think i am.

I don't recognise "huge violence in Latvia." Could you perhaps have been exaggerating?

Edited September 14, 2016 by LJS

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

No they are not. to demonstrate that your fantasy carried a grain of truth we woudl need to know the significance people placed on their Scottishness. That poll tells us diddly squat about that.

The poll asks if blood &/or soil makes a Scot. A large proportion of people in Scotland say it does.

Go on, tell me again there's nothing of blood and soil there.

 

11 hours ago, LJS said:

Indeed the fact that some people profess themselves to be "Scottish not British" but still voted against independence suggests that things are maybe just a wee bit more complex in the real world than in  your rather dense head.

The one claiming it's simple is you, who says it just can't happen. Nothing gets as simple as a simple dismissal.

I'm not pretending it's not a complex thing, I'm simply referencing the output from that thing. You know, like brexit has seen an upsurge in violence.

Meanwhile, in the Corbyn debate, plenty of those who backed remain are now standing side by side with Corbyn's brexit, showing how people move with the circumstances. It won't be any different in Scotland with indy, where some no-voting Scots will accept an indy victory while trying to shape it to their wants, just as the Corbynista-new-brexiters want to shape brexit to theirs.

If Scotland could vote indy and nothing changes, what's the point of indy? Indy is about power, power transferred to Scotland. People will want to exercise that power to their benefit, and with newly-constricted resources (from the missing £10Bn) they're not going to be happy to see 'their' resources given to 'foreigners'.

How deeply that unhappiness spreads I'm making no particular attempt at guessing (tho see below*), but it's no guess to reference the upsurge in nationalist violence that's happened in all other places.

(* I am suggesting that a 50% upsurge in hate crimes doesn't seem unreasonable, given that's been the brexit effect, which just like your dismissal is something that no one much expected).

 

11 hours ago, LJS said:

So you keep saying. You hvae no evidence to back this up. I live here & I don't believe it based on the experience of my huuuuuuuuuge life, 

Without wishing to make a big deal of it, I have personal evidence from my brief visits to Scotland. I know with absolute certainty it's there, and also that it takes nothing at all for it to rear it's head (unless you count 'excuse me' as provocative?)

I'm in no way trying to suggest it's anything typical. I'm merely suggesting there will be an effect.

As for what you say of your experiences, I believe you've previously acknowledged that there are those in Scotland with that anti-English chip loaded with violence that I've encountered. Just because you (and me) regard them as morons doesn't  make them have no effect.

 

11 hours ago, LJS said:

It is. Fortunately it tends to predominantly practised by the political right which I am glad to say has little traction in Scotland. Is that guaranteed to last for ever?... of course not & we will certainly have to be wary of it.

It needs more than saying we'll tackle it after it's happened.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

I don't recognise "huge violence in Latvia." Could you perhaps have been exaggerating?

there was huge violence in Latvia. You said it didn't count.

So I went with your denial and pointed at something that did count in your eyes.

But rather than you admit that what I said was there is there, you're now looking for a diversion to avoid admitting my point stands, that a victory for nationalism causes an increase in nationalist violence.

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

there was huge violence in Latvia. You said it didn't count.

So I went with your denial and pointed at something that did count in your eyes.

But rather than you admit that what I said was there is there, you're now looking for a diversion to avoid admitting my point stands, that a victory for nationalism causes an increase in nationalist violence.

OK, Neil,if you believe you have supplied evidence to support your claim of "huge violence" we obviously differ on the meaning of words in the English language.

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

Clearly showing no such thing. You have given a scenario where it stops when it gets to 6% based on the UK government ramping up expenditure. If we are independent we will make our own decisions on revenue and expenditure so will not be bound by the actions of the rUK government. (if you think that means I am now supporting austerity, you are , by the way, wrong. )

The current SG expenditure is set via the 'block grant' sent to the SG.

Unless the SG are going to start sending some of that money back, it's very definitely Westminster which controls Scottish spending.

And given that (in the eyes of a many Scots) one of the most-heinous crimes committed by SLAB was sending money back, I can't see it happening while the SNP remain in power. Can you?

That Barnett money accounts for about 6% extra spending in Scotland. That extra spending - the deficit gap - only changes without Barnett.

 

12 hours ago, LJS said:

See above. The deficit would have started coming down slower had we had sensible economic policies but would by now be falling much quicker. This is of course my opinion. just as the bit above is your opinion.

PMSL.

 

12 hours ago, LJS said:

We have a deficit gap to Germany i would imagine. it doesn't matter because we are not part of Germany.

OMG.

It would be simpler if you walked around with "idiot" written on your forehead with marker pen.

 

12 hours ago, LJS said:

The deficit is the deficit  I'll repeat yet again the deficit gap is irrelevant to an independent Scotland. The absolute deficit is. And do please remember to check how many of the past 50 years the UK as a whole has not run a deficit.

You're a simple-minded soul, aren't you? Most people have debts, but not all debts mean bankruptcy is imminent.

You want Scotland to join the EU. The EU says member deficits need to be less than 3%.

Yes, they allow that rule to be broken in exceptional circumstances - but where there's a plan to tackle the excessive deficit, via spending cuts.

Meanwhile, nothing of Scotland's deficit is 'exceptional circumstances'. It's endemic via the extra money Scotland demands for itself.

One of Scotland's 'demands' is going to have to be given up, either the EU or the Barnett money. Take your pick.

 

12 hours ago, LJS said:

Fact 1: The Scottish onshore deficit ove rthe past 5 years has been falling by around £1bn per year

Fact 1: the Scottish block grant has (in real terms) been falling by about the same.

 

12 hours ago, LJS said:

Fact 2: If this trend continues the deficit will disappear within about 12 years. it will reach manageable proportions much sooner than that .

Fact 2: The trend is cuts from Westminster that you object to.

There is no Scottish trend except a demand for "can we have some more please sir?"

That trend will come to and end with the Scottish deficit stuck at about 6%.

PS: here's some more cuts from Westminster, with cuts to services for the poorest amplified by the SNP.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/13/scotland-facing-billions-of-pounds-of-budget-cuts-say-economists

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, LJS said:

OK, Neil,if you believe you have supplied evidence to support your claim of "huge violence" we obviously differ on the meaning of words in the English language.

I'm not bothered on arguing a side-point to the point I wished to make, which was nothing about 'huge violence' in Scotland.

Meanwhile, do you have any comment for what I actually said about Scotland? Or do you only wish to lick this squirrels arse and hope no one has noticed?

[LJS]

23 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Wow, Scotland has a new toy.

Do you imagine that nowhere else is also getting new toys all the time, as their own economies move forward too (tho perhaps in different ways)?

Did you miss this bit....?

 

 

So not actually an employment positive as such, just the hope it might replace what you're losing.

It's not the first btw, tho i guess it's bigger than the two existing deployments in the bristol channel and a loch(sp?) in NI. The Bristol channel one is a research operation, and in the best location in the world - better for tides than any location Scotland has. The NI one is, I think, commercial.

(with a background in electricity, it's something i follow a little)

If it proves significantly viable - it isn't at the moment, don't forget, it's surviving on subsidies - I guess Scotland will be proud to claim it was at the forefront of what England will deploy around its own coasts, much nearer to where it's needed and so cheaper, and with some of it (Bristol channel) far better suited than anywhere Scotland has.
 

You've focused on tidal power which was only one of the many subjects I linked to. 

I'll take your Bristol Channel & raise you the Pentland Firth.

[LJS]

Since you have failed to provide any evidence to support your claims of blood & soil nonsense or the inevitability of a nationalist backlash, I think we'll just have to agree to differ on that one.

Similarly, your inability to recognise that if a trend of deficit reduction continues the deficit will eventually disappear, means we'll just have to agree to differ on that too. 

 

[Comfy Bean]

3 hours ago, LJS said:

Since you have failed to provide any evidence to support your claims of blood & soil nonsense...........

 

Brian Docherty, Chairman of the Scottish Police Federation, has now dismissed suggestions there will be unrest on either side, and expects the referendum to be "robust but overwhelmingly good-natured." He said: "It was inevitable that the closer we came to 18 September, passions would increase but that does not justify the exaggerated rhetoric that is being deployed with increased frequency. Any neutral observer could be led to believe Scotland is on the verge of societal disintegration yet nothing could be further from the truth.

"Scotland's citizens are overwhelmingly law abiding and tolerant and it is preposterous to imply that by placing a cross in a box, our citizens will suddenly abandon the personal virtues and values held dear to them all.

"At this time it is more important than ever that individuals, be they politicians, journalists or whoever, should carefully consider their words, maintain level heads and act with respect.

"Respect is not demonstrated by suggesting a minority of mindless idiots are representative of anything."

Docherty said his officers must steer clear of rhetoric "better suited to the playground than the political stump [campaign trail]" and assured they have better things to do than respond to "baseless speculation" about the potential for violence.

 

[Comfy Bean]

On 9/9/2016 at 9:48 AM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

There are of course eejits who support indy but nothing like the % that you seem to believe. Just like there are eejits who don`t support indy and compare the SNP to nazi`s etc. Again, they are a tiny minority. During the campaign someone threw an egg at the saviour, 2 blokes shouted at Ed Izzard and some union jack wavers chucked a couple of bottles in George sq. You seem to believe that Scotland was turned into a battle ground. It`s just not like that in reality. Last I read, the SNP are listening quietly and respectfully to the NO voters as we move forward. Why does this approach wind you up ?

 

 

Any neutral observer could be led to believe Scotland is on the verge of societal disintegration yet nothing could be further from the truth .......

Not sure I would regard you as a neutral observer Neil but looks to me like you should reflect on the words like baseless and speculation.

Edited September 14, 2016 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

3 hours ago, LJS said:

Since you have failed to provide any evidence to support your claims of blood & soil nonsense,,,,,,,

 

 

Katie Ghose, chief executive of the society, said: “This report shows without a shadow of a doubt just how dire the EU referendum debate really was.

“There were glaring democratic deficiencies in the run-up to the vote, with the public feeling totally ill-informed.

“Both sides were viewed as highly negative by voters, while the top-down, personality-based nature of the debate failed to address major policies and issues, leaving the public in the dark.

“It offered a stark contrast to the vibrant, well-informed, grass roots conversation of the Scottish independence vote - a referendum that left a lasting legacy of ongoing public participation in politics and public life.”

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, LJS said:

You've focused on tidal power which was only one of the many subjects I linked to. 

As far as I could see from the link titles, all that linked to was the same story. I didn't bother clicking on them all, tho I did click on a number of them.

 

13 hours ago, LJS said:

I'll take your Bristol Channel & raise you the Pentland Firth.

Ahhh, flawed tidal knowledge to add to your utterly crap maths skills.

With attributes like that it's no wonder you find the case for indy convincing. 

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, LJS said:

Since you have failed to provide any evidence to support your claims of blood & soil nonsense or the inevitability of a nationalist backlash, I think we'll just have to agree to differ on that one.

A poll based on bloodf and soil is proof of blood and soil.

You sticking your head up your arse does not make you see the shit that you talk, which is a shame.

 

13 hours ago, LJS said:

Similarly, your inability to recognise that if a trend of deficit reduction continues the deficit will eventually disappear, means we'll just have to agree to differ on that too.

Yep, in 70 years.

Do you think even the tories plan 70 years of austerity?

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Brian Docherty, Chairman of the Scottish Police Federation, has now dismissed suggestions there will be unrest on either side, and expects the referendum to be "robust but overwhelmingly good-natured." He said: "It was inevitable that the closer we came to 18 September, passions would increase but that does not justify the exaggerated rhetoric that is being deployed with increased frequency. Any neutral observer could be led to believe Scotland is on the verge of societal disintegration yet nothing could be further from the truth.

"Scotland's citizens are overwhelmingly law abiding and tolerant and it is preposterous to imply that by placing a cross in a box, our citizens will suddenly abandon the personal virtues and values held dear to them all.

"At this time it is more important than ever that individuals, be they politicians, journalists or whoever, should carefully consider their words, maintain level heads and act with respect.

"Respect is not demonstrated by suggesting a minority of mindless idiots are representative of anything."

Docherty said his officers must steer clear of rhetoric "better suited to the playground than the political stump [campaign trail]" and assured they have better things to do than respond to "baseless speculation" about the potential for violence.

 

Quotes about (just) the referendum - the actual voting - are not quotes about what might happen following a nationalist victory in that referendum.

If anyone had thought indy might have won, his thoughts might have moved past the actual vote to consider the consequences of a victory. But he didn't have to, so it didn't enter his thoughts. and there's no comment made of it.

I see he notes that Scotland's citizens are overwhelmingly law abiding. Presumably you're able to say the same about England?

I could note - but note i haven't till now - that Scotland has higher levels of hate crimes than England.

Whatever, there's been an amount - a small amount, tho of course that's no comfort to those affected - post-brexit violence. And I could put in front of you several tens of words from posts by Nats made in the last 24 hours which is clear anti-english and anti-'foriegner' racism. And I could point out that there's about the same proportion of publicly expressed racism by Nats in n4ewspaper comments as there's ever been by kippers.

(and please note: I used the word 'Nats' and not 'snippers'. I'm even dis-associating them from the SNP for you ... tho no one can disassociate them from Scotland or Scottish nationalism, not even your [ex] top-copper, because...)

He goes on to admit Scotland having "a minority of mindless idiots". If Scotland is different to England, presumably you're saying that England has a majority of mindless idiots, and that's why England has had nationalist violence and nothing similar could happen in nationalist Scotland post-indy?

The potential for violence is clear. That attitudes that drive it are clear. That Scotland has the necessary nutters is clear.

But it couldn't happen there, because Scotland is different.