The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

The people of Scotland have effectively decided by electing an SNP government with a mandate for an injured if we get dragged out of Europe kicking & screaming , and then voting to remain in Europe

I think something of auto-corrrection has got in your words there, as it doesn't make sense and I can't even work out what it is you were trying to say. 'injured' seems very out of place.

Want to try again?

Edited October 14, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

ahh, got it, I think. 'injured' = indyref?

Yep, the SNP have that mandate, but that's not "the people of Scotland will decide if/when we have another vote", particularly when only around 30% want another vote.

And Dave Sturgeon said yesterday - very specifically - that *SHE* would decide if you get one, and not the people of Scotland.

Edited October 14, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I think something of auto-corrrection has got in your words there, as it doesn't make sense and I can't even work out what it is you were trying to say. 'injured' seems very out of place.

Want to try again?

Indyref.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, LJS said:

Indyref.

see just above - I'd worked it out and gave a reply.

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

ahh, got it, I think. 'injured' = indyref?

Yep, the SNP have that mandate, but that's not "the people of Scotland will decide if/when we have another vote", particularly when only around 30% want another vote.

55% if there is a hard brexit.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

And Dave Sturgeon said yesterday - very specifically - that *SHE* would decide if you get one, and not the people of Scotland.

OK, Bob, I think the funny name stuff is wearing thin. 

My point is that the people have given her permission to decide.

[eFestivals]

28 minutes ago, LJS said:

55% if there is a hard brexit.

OK, Bob, I think the funny name stuff is wearing thin. 

My point is that the people have given her permission to decide.

The name stuff is actually very appropriate.

Just like Dave, she said she'd have a referendum in particular circumstances, but only because she thought those circumstances would never come about.

And now she's dead scared that not only will she have to follow thru on what she promised, but that Scotland will also be as mindlessly stupid as the UK has been, and you'll be living thru Project Fact (of scoxit) on top of Project Fact (of brexit).

And the only possible solution anyone can think of for post-indy economic salvation is for Scotland to become a bigger tax haven than Ireland so that even more millionaires can pay fuck all tax.

Yup, looks like the better path you said Scotland should have.

Edited October 14, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

In all seriousness, does anyone have a good idea how the following can be be sold to anyone as a good thing, that they should do....?

"Brexit is such an awful dreadful thing - just look at how the economy is plummetting - that we should should add some extra plummetting just for Scotland on top of that".

That's what Sturgeon needs to find buyers for. Do you think they'll be queuing up...?

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

The name stuff is actually very appropriate.

Just like Dave, she said she'd have a referendum in particular circumstances, but only because she thought those circumstances would never come about.

And now she's dead scared that not only will she have to follow thru on what she promised, but that Scotland will also be as mindlessly stupid as the UK has been, and you'll be living thru Project Fact (of scoxit) on top of Project Fact (of brexit).

And the only possible solution anyone can think of for post-indy economic salvation is for Scotland to become a bigger tax haven than Ireland so that even more millionaires can pay fuck all tax.

Yup, looks like the better path you said Scotland should have.

Thanks for your wild speculation, Donald, it's always entertaining.

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

Thanks for your wild speculation, Donald, it's always entertaining.

Sturgeon didn't say she'd hold a referendum in specific circumstances?

Sturgeon isn't reluctant to actually do it?

Sturgeon always thought brexit would win?

The pound has plummetted. Why do you think Scotland isn't equally affected by that to other parts of the UK? Are you thinking that Scotland miraculously springs back to the old position if cut free from rUK? If so, care to say why?

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Sturgeon didn't say she'd hold a referendum in specific circumstances?

I think she reserved the right to maybe think about holding a referendum.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Sturgeon isn't reluctant to actually do it?

Unlike you, Derrin, I am unable to read Nicola's mind. I could give you my best guess which is that she is being cautious partly because that is her nature & partly because it makes sound political sense not to rush headlong into a referendum, but that is only my guess. Other guesses are available.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Sturgeon always thought brexit would win?

Like most of us, I'd imagine she assumed remain would win.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

The pound has plummetted. Why do you think Scotland isn't equally affected by that to other parts of the UK?

I don't.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Are you thinking that Scotland miraculously springs back to the old position if cut free from rUK? If so, care to say why?

I'm not sure what the "old position" is but I have never claimed anything will happen "miraculously" as a result of I'd escaping the evil clutches of Westminster.

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, LJS said:

I think she reserved the right to maybe think about holding a referendum.

Oh, c'mon ... we all know she'd hold it tomorrow if she thought she'd win.

And we also always know that her opinion on what is best for Scotland in any and all situations is independence, meaning that her recommendation of what to do about brexit ain't worth shit anyway.

 

31 minutes ago, LJS said:

Unlike you, Derrin, I am unable to read Nicola's mind. I could give you my best guess which is that she is being cautious partly because that is her nature & partly because it makes sound political sense not to rush headlong into a referendum, but that is only my guess. Other guesses are available.

Like rushing into it without first having a plan, that sort of thing? Just like the brexiters?

Yet she knows that indy is best for Scotland, and she's started the paperwork to make Scotland indy ... but she doesn't have a plan .... and so she also doesn't know what's best for Scotland.

Or is it a super-special plan, that no one can know about, because...? There is no reason for people to not know.

So there is no plan.

No wonder there's no headlong rush. I wonder how long the plan will take, and what it might say next time....?

31 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm not sure what the "old position" is but I have never claimed anything will happen "miraculously" as a result of I'd escaping the evil clutches of Westminster.

So that's the damage of indy's Project Fact on top of the damage from brexit's Project Fact.

Project Fact 3 will of course be exactly the same as Project Fact 1, because almost all of the same things apply.

And I look forwards to the miracle where 15% is a better thing than 65%. It's going to be special.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

What's that? It's madness to brexit and put a border thru Ireland? I agree.

So why's it a good thing to put thru Great Britain?

Just wondering, like.

 

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

What's that? It's madness to brexit and put a border thru Ireland? I agree.

So why's it a good thing to put thru Great Britain?

Just wondering, like.

 

I think we covered this in extraordinary detail a couple of years back.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

I think we covered this in extraordinary detail a couple of years back.

Yeah, tho that was before you were on a 'borders are bad' trip.

 

[LJS]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yeah, tho that was before you were on a 'borders are bad' trip.

There would be no border created that doesn't already exist. We even have an part of Scotland we refer to as the Borders. I have always stated that I would prefer a post independence arrangement that does not require border checks.

However if that is the price we have to pay for remaining in the EU, retaining the human rights act & escaping an increasingly right wing & anti -immigration UK, it may be a price worth paying. 

I see David Davies refused to answer a question about an increase in homophobic attacks because it was asked by an SNP MP.

You appear blind to what is going on in this country.

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

There would be no border created that doesn't already exist.

Not true.

If we take rUK as being out of the EU on WTO terms and iScotland within the EU, then iScotland would be required to create a customs border with rUK by fact of its EU membership.

In the opposite direction, if iScotland were to not agree a common travel area with rUK and ireland then rUK would impose a people border. That might sound extreme, tho Salmond if not Sturgeon has previously suggested that Scotland would have a very different immigration regime to the one that currently exists (and that issue will only get worse, I guess).

If iScotland were required to join Schengan as part of its EU membership, that guarantees a people border with rUK. Scotland would be required by the EU to have one as a border state of Schengan, and rUK would put its own up too.

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

You appear blind to what is going on in this country.

What do you think I'm blind to?

I've not been blind to the fact that Sturgeon is everything Davis is. All rhetoric and no plan and no solution, and not caring about the many victims their dogma-over-sense will cause.

If you've not seen the same, it's your vision with the problems.

Edited October 14, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Not true.

If we take rUK as being out of the EU on WTO terms and iScotland within the EU, then iScotland would be required to create a customs border with rUK by fact of its EU membership.

In the opposite direction, if iScotland were to not agree a common travel area with rUK and ireland then rUK would impose a people border. That might sound extreme, tho Salmond if not Sturgeon has previously suggested that Scotland would have a very different immigration regime to the one that currently exists (and that issue will only get worse, I guess).

If iScotland were required to join Schengan as part of its EU membership, that guarantees a people border with rUK. Scotland would be required by the EU to have one as a border state of Schengan, and rUK would put its own up too.

What do you think I'm blind to?

I've not been blind to the fact that Sturgeon is everything Davis is. All rhetoric and no plan and no solution, and not caring about the many victims their dogma-over-sense will cause.

If you've not seen the same, it's your vision with the problems.

Beautiful filleting of my post as per usual, cap'n Birdseye to hide the fact that I'd already covered many of your points.

Good work, lots of nice iffs in your reply as well.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

Beautiful filleting of my post as per usual, cap'n Birdseye to hide the fact that I'd already covered many of your points.

Good work, lots of nice iffs in your reply as well.

There's lots of if's, but there's one certainty: the border situation that exists now is the best it gets, and moving away from the certainty of that best is to somewhere worse. It's one of the many things where indy is is clearly a worse thing.

Of course, to someone of your faith there's no considerations to make because just like with Nicola indy is always better including if living in a cave, but that's not all Scots.

England has its kippers and Scotland has its snippers, and the rest use a more rational process. The only question that really matters is whether Scotland is as insane as England's been.

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

There's lots of if's, but there's one certainty: the border situation that exists now is the best it gets, and moving away from the certainty of that best is to somewhere worse. It's one of the many things where indy is is clearly a worse thing.

Of course, to someone of your faith there's no considerations to make because just like with Nicola indy is always better including if living in a cave, but that's not all Scots.

England has its kippers and Scotland has its snippers, and the rest use a more rational process. The only question that really matters is whether Scotland is as insane as England's been.

Aye, laddie, but at least it'll be a Bonnie Scots cave wi nane o yon nasty sassenachs in it.

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, LJS said:

Aye, laddie, but at least it'll be a Bonnie Scots cave wi nane o yon nasty sassenachs in it.

you think that's a joke, and yet it's the greatest rationale for indy in so many Scots minds.

Those sassenachs are such idiots voting for brexit,  and in response all good Scots should do something even more mad. That'll show them how much better Scotland is.

 

 

[LJS]

Popped out of my cave for a moment to find that the blessed Nicola, our beloved leader has tweeted a link to this article which is perhaps a little surprising.

https://medium.com/@chrisdeerin/when-youre-ready-to-talk-nicola-we-re-ready-to-listen-3cfad2ed76b#.nlzon9aco

Her comment is...

"I don't agree with every word of this...but it is a very fair challenge to those of us who advocate independence. "

[eFestivals]

19 hours ago, LJS said:

Popped out of my cave for a moment to find that the blessed Nicola, our beloved leader has tweeted a link to this article which is perhaps a little surprising.

https://medium.com/@chrisdeerin/when-youre-ready-to-talk-nicola-we-re-ready-to-listen-3cfad2ed76b#.nlzon9aco

Her comment is...

"I don't agree with every word of this...but it is a very fair challenge to those of us who advocate independence. "

"the Brexit campaign has presented Scotland’s separatists with an object lesson in how to do it" PMSL.

Tis the other way around. Brexit realised just how much lies sell to the stupid from the SNP.

 

 

[eFestivals]

I see the SNP have been taking money from Heathrow Airport to put Scotland first, because Scotland is put first by having Scotland as England's backwater.

Because it's very important that the SNP have a policy on English airports.

Meanwhile, SNP delegates were instructed they couldn't support Oxfam on the conference sidelines.

Yep, it's a different politics.

Edited October 16, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

29 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I see the SNP have been taking money from Heathrow Airport to put Scotland first, because Scotland is put first by having Scotland as England's backwater.

Because it's very important that the SNP have a policy on English airports.

Meanwhile, SNP delegates were instructed they couldn't support Oxfam on the conference sidelines.

Yep, it's a different politics.

I'm not sure where you got facts from and whether it was you or your source that twisted them to suit your case. 

For what it's worth, I share concerns about the way the SNP has dealt with its conference fringe. I don't know enough about Heathrow to have a strong opinion. 

I don't much disagree with anything on these matters in the following article.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/15/snp-conference-nicola-sturgeon-idea-space

 

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm not sure where you got facts from and whether it was you or your source that twisted them to suit your case. 

For what it's worth, I share concerns about the way the SNP has dealt with its conference fringe. I don't know enough about Heathrow to have a strong opinion. 

I don't much disagree with anything on these matters in the following article.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/15/snp-conference-nicola-sturgeon-idea-space

 

you're not sure where i've got my facts from, and then link to the article that I got my facts from.

It's probably wise to actually read more than the headline. I think I've said this to you before.