The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Fuck sake, you're the most ridiculous human being ever. Trump looks sane alongside you.

You say the sweetest things, Neil.

I love you too.

xxx

 

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, LJS said:

You say the sweetest things, Neil.

I love you too.

xxx

 

look, I accept that you're all-in for indy.

But that gets to mean you're not actually able to make intelligent comment on stuff that requires intelligence.

Just like Sturgeon, you've given up intelligence for emotion. Indy is always the answer.

[LJS]

57 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

look, I accept that you're all-in for indy.

But that gets to mean you're not actually able to make intelligent comment on stuff that requires intelligence.

Just like Sturgeon, you've given up intelligence for emotion. Indy is always the answer.

and I accept you're all in for the union but unlike you that doesn't mean I don't think you can say anything intelligent. I just wish it happened more often.

[eFestivals]

42 minutes ago, LJS said:

and I accept you're all in for the union but unlike you that doesn't mean I don't think you can say anything intelligent. I just wish it happened more often.

But i'm not "all for the union", you even have to lie about that, that's how weak your own arguments are.

"Everyone that might use their brain is against me". It doesn't get more pathetic.

I'm pointing out the simple fact - you know, from the same experts that said brexit would be a massive fuck-up - that indy will make Scotland poorer and so unable to achieve the very reasons some want indy.

You know, that's the outcome for Scotland you said had "reluctantly" caused you to support indy, but which isn't achievable. You cannot look after Scotland's poor in a better way with less money, it will instead drop them even deeper into the shit you say (or at least, said) you're against.

You've become the full kipper, even rejecting your own views to instead well-up on baseless emotion.

If/when you're prepared to campaign for indy on the honest truth - vote indy, vote yourself poorer - your intelligence comes into play.

Not before.

Edited October 25, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

7 hours ago, eFestivals said:

But i'm not "all for the union", you even have to lie about that, that's how weak your own arguments are.

You've never argued against it. You are as much all for the union as I am all for Indy. I would guess we both take the view that we support the best outcome for our country. Unlike you I do not constantly feel the need to insult the intelligence & morality of those who disagree with me. 

(Although I sometimes make a special exception for you due to your patronising arrogance & infantile debating methods)

Quote

"Everyone that might use their brain is against me". It doesn't get more pathetic.

As opposed to "everyone who is against me doesn't use their brain!" How pathetic is that?

Quote

I'm pointing out the simple fact - you know, from the same experts that said brexit would be a massive fuck-up - that indy will make Scotland poorer and so unable to achieve the very reasons some want indy.

The same experts who have already been proved wrong on some of the impacts of brexit and are widely accepted to have exaggerated the disaster we are allegedly facing.

Quote

You know, that's the outcome for Scotland you said had "reluctantly" caused you to support indy, but which isn't achievable. You cannot look after Scotland's poor in a better way with less money, it will instead drop them even deeper into the shit you say (or at least, said) you're against.

I believe Scotland's poor will have a better future under a government that gives a shit about them.

Quote

You've become the full kipper, even rejecting your own views to instead well-up on baseless emotion.

As ever, personal insult forms the backbone of your argument. Your entire argument is based on money money money. I find that rather sad.

Quote

If/when you're prepared to campaign for indy on the honest truth - vote indy, vote yourself poorer - your intelligence comes into play.

Not before.

And so we come full circle. If you disagree with Neil you must be stupid.

Thanks Einstein. 

I have made a complex case for Indy that addresses your deficit and makes a case for the many benefits, financial and otherwise to be gained from independence. I have always accepted there may be some choppy water particularly in the early years. I have also accepted that the SNP will need to make a better case on the economy this time round. All indications are that Nicola agrees with me.

And all you talk about is money.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

You've never argued against it.

One unified govt on a small island makes a lot of sense, from a number of very good angles. For the very same reasons I'm all for a united Ireland, should the people want it.

What the structure of such a govt might be as perfection is a different argument, tho it's unlikely to a system where individuals in one group have ten times the power of individuals in another group as is often heard suggested these days.

 

1 minute ago, LJS said:

You are as much all for the union as I am all for Indy.

From one angle I agree with, and yet ....

I have the facts on my side.

You only have denial of those facts on yours.

You're like Nigel's best mate.

 

1 minute ago, LJS said:

I would guess we both take the view that we support the best outcome for our country.

Agreed.

You used to say the best outcome was a society that looked after its poor. Now you celebrate their increasing poverty as a step nearer to indy.

You've forgotten what got you where you are, and swapped it for pure emotion.

 

1 minute ago, LJS said:

Unlike you I do not constantly feel the need to insult the intelligence & morality of those who disagree with me. 

If you want admiration for your intelligence, you have to be worthy of it. Just as i'd be happy to express that admiration, I'm happy to point out flaws. Get over it or smarten up.

It's much more laughter than intention to insult. If I hear something funny, I'll laugh. Just because my humour might operate on a different wavelength doesn't make it like you imagine it to be.

 

1 minute ago, LJS said:

(Although I sometimes make a special exception for you due to your patronising arrogance & infantile debating methods)

Thing is, every time i try adult you end up doing the childish thing when you get an awkward question. Normally it involves a video.

And having a adult debate on the facts is hard when you won't accept any facts, because they're all a bit too awkward.

But if you've given up the kipper thing of rejecting the experts, we can always try again...?

 

 

[LJS]

38 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

I have the facts on my side.

You have some facts, some interpretations of these facts, some wild extrapolations from these facts, some estimates and some guesses 

Quote

You only have denial of those facts on yours.

We had an interesting exchange recently where, for the sake of simplicity, I used the GERS figures as a basis to show how Scotland could reduce its deficit to a sustainable level. This was based entirely on your favourite sources of facts , GERS & kev Hague. You twisted & turned & obfuscated to try & wriggle out of the inconvenient truth. It wasn't long before you were reduced to nonsense of claiming that I was supporting Tory cuts.

Quote

You're like Nigel's best mate.

Oh look a gratuitous insult.

Quote

 

Agreed.

You used to say the best outcome was a society that looked after its poor. Now you celebrate their increasing poverty as a step nearer to indy.

A classic Neil technique. I "celebrate increasing poverty"

The only poverty I celebrate is your poverty of ideas.

Quote

You've forgotten what got you where you are, and swapped it for pure emotion.

I really don't know where you get this from. I am not instinctively or emotionally in favour of Indy. My support is based on practical considerations.

Quote

 

If you want admiration for your intelligence, you have to be worthy of it. Just as i'd be happy to express that admiration, I'm happy to point out flaws. Get over it or smarten up.

Have a read at that paragraph:

 

Is it    

a) arrogant

patronising

c)just a little bit sad

d) all of the above.

         

Quote

It's much more laughter than intention to insult. If I hear something funny, I'll laugh. Just because my humour might operate on a different wavelength doesn't make it like you imagine it to be.

Nor does it make it funny. 

Frankly whether you are insulting me or laughing at me makes little difference. It's just a bit annoying in the context of a debate & conveniently enables you to dodge any inconvenient points.

Quote

 

Thing is, every time i try adult you end up doing the childish thing when you get an awkward question. Normally it involves a video.

When I first joined this thread, my hope was we could all have a nice chat about independence, make our points, have bit of banter without being too deadly serious. Maybe even having a wee chuckle now & then, to which end I sometimes ended my posts with a wee video.

It soon became clear that you weren't really into the banter & you didn't like the videos.

Which is why I kept posting them.

Quote

And having a adult debate on the facts is hard when you won't accept any facts, because they're all a bit too awkward.

Well, as I have often shown, you sometimes have rather odd ideas of what constitutes facts which leads to more arrogant & patronising comments like the one above.

Quote

But if you've given up the kipper thing of rejecting the experts, we can always try again...?

I hardly think it's worth it. You only like your own experts. No matter how much experience or qualifications  someone has, if they don't support your view they are an idiot.

[LJS]

Sign up here guys  ...

 

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/english-referendum-on-scotlands-removal-from-union?time=1472018776

 

[eFestivals]

I'll ignore the rest of your denialist untruthful guff - I'm well practised at it - and just comment on this piece....

13 hours ago, LJS said:

 

I hardly think it's worth it. You only like your own experts. No matter how much experience or qualifications  someone has, if they don't support your view they are an idiot.

 

...where you don't have any independent experts on your side - not a single one - tho you do have the the indy-supporting arguing-against-what-they-used-to-say biased Cuthberts, who only have fame in the first place because of the need of snippers to grasp at absolutely anything.

(Oh, you also have that Scottish economics professor who doesn't even understand what the oil revenues are as his fantastic letter to the FT made clear)

While you support a woman who says that brexit would be an economic disaster - I don't disagree - but refuses to demonstrate that her own economic plans are less of an economic disaster.

in fact, while she pronounces on the economic disaster of brexit, she doesn't have an alternative plan at all, she doesn't have an economic plan at all, and so is unable to suggest anything better.

The only gun in her armoury is to shout loudly that Scotland was against brexit as tho it means something tangible, while the reality is that it only means something tangible to a sovereign entity - which Scotland is not because the people of Scotland decided to not be a sovereign entity.

So you're left grasping ridiculousness.and a flag.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

Sign up here guys  ...

 

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/english-referendum-on-scotlands-removal-from-union?time=1472018776

 

that's just increased the vote against indy.

 

[LJS]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'll ignore the rest of your denialist untruthful guff - I'm well practised at it - and just comment on this piece....

...where you don't have any independent experts on your side - not a single one - tho you do have the the indy-supporting arguing-against-what-they-used-to-say biased Cuthberts, who only have fame in the first place because of the need of snippers to grasp at absolutely anything.

(Oh, you also have that Scottish economics professor who doesn't even understand what the oil revenues are as his fantastic letter to the FT made clear)

While you support a woman who says that brexit would be an economic disaster - I don't disagree - but refuses to demonstrate that her own economic plans are less of an economic disaster.

in fact, while she pronounces on the economic disaster of brexit, she doesn't have an alternative plan at all, she doesn't have an economic plan at all, and so is unable to suggest anything better.

The only gun in her armoury is to shout loudly that Scotland was against brexit as tho it means something tangible, while the reality is that it only means something tangible to a sovereign entity - which Scotland is not because the people of Scotland decided to not be a sovereign entity.

So you're left grasping ridiculousness.and a flag.

I love it when you prove my point perfectly.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

I love it when you prove my point perfectly.

I'm rightfully dismissing the proven arguing-against-themselves Cuthberts and that economics professer who knows less about one part than you or I.

So your list of experts that I'm wrongfully dismissing are.....?

Cos otherwise it's you proving my point.

Edited October 26, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

so there's no independent experts that say indy is the better economic prospect. I'm glad that's been cleared up.

The debate with the facts continues .... unless your name is Alex (or LJS)..

Quote

Alex Salmond has warned the UK Government against further "blatant abuse" of financial statistics during a potential second Scottish independence referendum.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14827652.Alex_Salmond_warns_UK_Government_against__project_fear__during_second_independence_referendum/

... because Alex is well known for his adherence to the facts with his own campaign, eh....?

He's still to explain how come he believed one good year of oil revenues guaranteed that amount in every year - because no one else had those financial statistics.

in fact, no one knows where he got those numbers from, apart from the file he keeps marked "the big lies that Scots are daft enough to fall for".

He didn't publish the two letters to the Scottish Govt from the EU that said "you're having a laugh".

And we're still waiting for an answer to the currency question, too.

With such upright honest people representing indy, he might as well move south and call himself Boris or Nigel.

 

Edited October 27, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

and while i'm doing the Scottish newspapers....

Quote

But speaking during questions to the Leader of the House, the SNP’s Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) said: “Yesterday the Leader of the House announced a review of last year’s change to standing orders, which implemented the absurd Evel, English Votes for English Laws, process, which disenfranchises non-English MPs.

“Will the leader restore equality for MPs by removing the over convoluted and shamefully partisan Evel procedure from standing orders, and make sure all MPs in this House are equal?”

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/snp-english-votes-for-english-laws-absurd-1-4270774

.... which implemented the absurd Svsl, Scottish Votes for Scottish Laws, process, which disenfranchises both Scottish and non-Scottish MPs.

“Will the leader restore equality for MPs by removing the over convoluted and shamefully partisan Svsl procedure from standing orders, and make sure all MPs in this House are equal?”

You got what you asked for, which disenfranchised all Scottish and other MPs at Westminster, and Scotland cheered, it didn't complain.

If the SNP now thinks all MPs at Westminster should be equal with their votes and their remit, it's within their control to do. Just shut down the Scottish Parliament, and then every MP can happily vote on everything.

Edited October 27, 2016 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Just shut down the Scottish Parliament, and then every MP can happily vote on everything.

Not sure why any Country would want to shut down it's own Parliament?

Do you think the scottish parliament should never have been built Neil? 

Perhaps they would.... and then they could  join, almost in union, with a bigger neighbouring country who could go on to ignore the democratic choices of the smaller country and just go with a more right wing government for all.

They could even chose to abandon another union with lots of surrounding Countries even though the smaller Country's residents voted overwhelmingly to remain with their friends in the wider group. 

Who could possibly see anything wrong with this scenario. 

Yeah close it down. Back in your box Scotland. Your getting a Tory government from now on. Get used to it and you can forget your choice to stay in Europe. 

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Not sure why any Country would want to shut down it's own Parliament?

You might similarly ask why a country wants it's MPs in two different parliaments, particularly when it's complaining that it's own parliament weakens its power in the other one.

And while i know what your solution to that would be, there's also an alternative one parliament solution, and by the logic of the geezer quoted's own argument, it would be Holyrood that closed.

 

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Do you think the scottish parliament should never have been built Neil? 

I didn't have a view either way at the time it came into existence, but the way it's worked out has led me to that conclusion, yup. It's not like it's made people in Scotland and happier politically, in fact it's had the opposite effect as demonstrated by the growing loudness of the moans.

There's fuck all wrong with the idea of powers being concentrated in one place to ensure political consistency. It's not like that's not the SNP's own plan for Scotland, and so the only difference is around where we each choose to draw imaginary lines ... oh, except mine isn't imagined, it's indisputably there, and meaningful in its impact.

[LJS]

19 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I didn't have a view either way at the time it came into existence, but the way it's worked out has led me to that conclusion, yup. It's not like it's made people in Scotland and happier politically, in fact it's had the opposite effect as demonstrated by the growing loudness of the moans.

Apparently not 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11885564/Northern-Ireland-and-Scotland-enjoy-highest-life-satisfaction-but-Londoners-suffer-from-inequality.html

[eFestivals]

25 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Perhaps they would.... and then they could  join, almost in union, with a bigger neighbouring country who could go on to ignore the democratic choices of the smaller country and just go with a more right wing government for all.

There's more than one ignoring democratic choice.

There's the democratic choice to write a white paper full of lies.

There's the democratic choice of Scotland to not be sovereign, and so to not have a (purely) Scottish voice in UK decisions.

Followed by the choice to demand an undemocratic veto.

There's the democratic choice of the UK to want a referendum - something clear from polls from a long time.

There's the democratic choice to have lesser immigration - something clear from polls from a long time, with very little difference in response when the same question ids asked in Scotland.

There's the democratic choice to accept a democratic result, or not to.

There's a democratic choice to threaten a referendum if there's brexit and then bottle it.
Some people are better democrats than others.

 

25 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Who could possibly see anything wrong with this scenario. 

Everyone who is in fantasyland imagining a status that doesn't exist, and where it's bad to not have a plan unless the ones without TWO plans are the SNP.

 

25 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Yeah close it down. Back in your box Scotland. Your getting a Tory government from now on. Get used to it and you can forget your choice to stay in Europe. 

Yup, back in yer box, or fuck off. That's it in a nutshell.

Now you need to ask yourselrf why no one actually seems that keen to fuck off, particularly the one who keeps on saying she wants to fuck off.

She can't even stick to her word of fucking off if there's brexit. It's now only that she'll fuck off if it's hard brexit. Next week it'll be she'll only fuck off if there's another Better Together campaign, but that if England tells her to fuck off that's it, she's just not having that, so you'll be staying.

I've had a tory govt most of my life, and you'll have one post-indy and be stuck with them just as much, just you wait and see. What do the socially conservative do when they can't pay the bills, comfy?

 

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

so there's no independent experts that say indy is the better economic prospect. I'm glad that's been cleared up.

That's not my claim. You have moved the goalposts yet again. I guess they must be travel sick. I merely pointed out that the only experts whose opinions you value are the ones who agree with you. The rest (astonishingly) are all idiots. Qualifications & experience count for nothing. I have quoted numerous opinions from numerous experts better qualified than you or me, all of which have been dismissed as being fools by your esteemed self. Sadly I did not keep a file with all their names & cv's and I feel under no obligation to trawl through hundreds of posts to find them.

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

The debate with the facts continues .... unless your name is Alex (or LJS)..

I remember "factgate"

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

... because Alex is well known for his adherence to the facts with his own campaign, eh....?

He's still to explain how come he believed one good year of oil revenues guaranteed that amount in every year - because no one else had those financial statistics.

in fact, no one knows where he got those numbers from, apart from the file he keeps marked "the big lies that Scots are daft enough to fall for".

He didn't publish the two letters to the Scottish Govt from the EU that said "you're having a laugh".

And we're still waiting for an answer to the currency question, too.

With such upright honest people representing indy, he might as well move south and call himself Boris or Nigel.

What year is it?

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

Apparently not 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11885564/Northern-Ireland-and-Scotland-enjoy-highest-life-satisfaction-but-Londoners-suffer-from-inequality.html

I was talking about political satisfaction.

From where i'm sat Scotland sounds more politically frustrated than it's ever been.

Unless you'll tell me that SNP matey was talking tosh about the loss of equal powers on matters to do with Scotland to MPs at Westminster?

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

That's not my claim. You have moved the goalposts yet again. I guess they must be travel sick. I merely pointed out that the only experts whose opinions you value are the ones who agree with you.

PMSL.

No, LJS, it's me actually listening to what independent experts say, just as I listened to them about brexit.

I'd quite like to listen to an 'expert' with an opposing view BASED ON THE FACTS (rather than based on dismissing the facts), but I can't find any. Can you?

Presumably, if you're not listening to the experts then you don't have to worry about the consequences of brexit and there's then no need for Scotland to be indy.

Given up the experts, have you, or just the ones who don't agree with you?

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

What year is it?

the year that Alex said would have no deficit but which in fact has £15Bn of deficit.

Is that "Project Fear"? I'm sure it is.

And your great democratic movement's father reckons that the Scottish people can't handle the truth.

Is that because you're delicate little flowers or he wants to take you for mugs?

Edited October 27, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

25 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

PMSL.

No, LJS, it's me actually listening to what independent experts say, just as I listened to them about brexit.

More good post brexit economic news today I see on growth & Nissan. Do you thinks some of the "experts" might have over egged their puddings somewhat? Might they have done the same in their post Indy nightmare scenarios?

25 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'd quite like to listen to an 'expert' with an opposing view BASED ON THE FACTS (rather than based on dismissing the facts), but I can't find any. Can you?

What you fail to grasp is that there can be legitimate differences of opinion amongst experts. When projecting the future there is no certainty.

25 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Presumably, if you're not listening to the experts then you don't have to worry about the consequences of brexit and there's then no need for Scotland to be indy.

I don't want Scottish independence because of brexit. It is merely one of many straws breaking the Scottish camel's back. And I don't believe the brexperts are entirely wrong. Just prone to exaggeration.

25 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Given up the experts, have you, or just the ones who don't agree with you?

Irony is alive & well & living in Bristol.

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

More good post brexit economic news today I see on growth & Nissan. Do you thinks some of the "experts" might have over egged their puddings somewhat? Might they have done the same in their post Indy nightmare scenarios?

so you have gone the full kipper....?

I think you might have missed all of the UK becoming 18% poorer, just perhaps, where the arse has falklen out of the UK and made that much poorer compared to the rest of the world.

Just as the arse will fall out of an independent Scotland compared to the UK at that time, and leave iScotland poorer than the UK, poorer than it was.

Only the brain dead need an expert to grasp why Scotland will be poorer. You can't remain as rich when you'll have £9Bn a year less money.

 

12 hours ago, LJS said:

What you fail to grasp is that there can be legitimate differences of opinion amongst experts. When projecting the future there is no certainty.

There can be legitmate differences amongst experts, yep

But unfortunately for you there is no difference in what all of the experts say, that iScotland will be poorer.

Because you can't remain as rich when you'll have £9Bn less, and it doesn't need an expert to recognise that truth.

 

12 hours ago, LJS said:

I don't want Scottish independence because of brexit.

And neither does Sturgeon.

As I've already mentioned, brexit is the idiot excuse she's invented to pursue what she wanted anyway. Brexit is meaningless to her and your view on Scottish indy.

She's being such a moron she's already decided she has a better plan than May before she's even got a plan. It doesn't get clearer than that.

 

12 hours ago, LJS said:

It is merely one of many straws breaking the Scottish camel's back.

I'm pretty sure you said that last time, and the camel remains standing.

Get back to me if it ever gets that broken back when we can talk about iScotland's broken back instead.

 

12 hours ago, LJS said:

And I don't believe the brexperts are entirely wrong. Just prone to exaggeration.

Irony is alive & well & living in Bristol.

I'm guessing yo9u're now a brexpets as you're prone to exaggeration that's better decribed as denial of facts and pure lies.

Meanwhile, thanks again for proving that there's the experts only say "poorer" about iScotland.