The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

54 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Correct.

To mention Sturgeon and Trump in the same post is either mischievous, at best, or shows a completely lack of understanding around what NS is about.

Fair enough to disagree with her politics but Neil continues to just make stuff up to back up  his hate fuelled version of what's going on politically in Scotland.

Idiots on both sides etc with some reduced to idiotic insults like poisoned dwarf facist racist etc but the vast vast majority on both sides are engaged in an interesting, ongoing ( see this thread ) debate. 

^this^

Neil appears to believe what people post online on Indy sites& btl on newspapers is representative of Indy supporters. That is like saying #Lad is representative of festival goers.

[lost]

Not all indy supporters hate the English, but I think its safe to assume all the Scots that hate the English are indy supporters 

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, zahidf said:

The SNP has anti-racism procedures in place and as a policy, are pro immigration.

 

The Labour Party has anti-racism procedures in place and as a policy, are pro semites.

I guess Corbyn shouldn't have called out the anti-Semites after all....?

[eFestivals]

21 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Correct.

To mention Sturgeon and Trump in the same post is either mischievous, at best, or shows a completely lack of understanding around what NS is about.

Trump puts America first, at the expense of others in the world.

Sturgeon puts Scotland first, at the expense of others in the world.

Care to tell me what I've nissed there?

They're both about local privileges for local people.

just last week we had LJS posting to say that other members of NATO should pay Scotland's share, so that Scotland can spend it's money on Scotland instead ... while we have Trump saying that all NATO members should pay their fair share so the USA can spebnd its money on Americans.

Of those two, Trump is the more honest - cos at least he's not saying the USA won't pay its share.

 

Quote

Fair enough to disagree with her politics but Neil continues to just make stuff up to back up  his hate fuelled version of what's going on politically in Scotland.

Idiots on both sides etc with some reduced to idiotic insults like poisoned dwarf facist racist etc but the vast vast majority on both sides are engaged in an interesting, ongoing ( see this thread ) debate. 

meanwhile, what about what I actually said - and not what you've just made up....?

Is there any reason you've thrown in squirrels to hide stuff with....?

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by eFestivals

[zahidf]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

The Labour Party has anti-racism procedures in place and as a policy, are pro semites.

I guess Corbyn shouldn't have called out the anti-Semites after all....?

Are you saying that there is a racisms problem in the SNP comparable to the anti semetism problem in Labour? Or accusations of such?

 

 

[zahidf]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Trump puts America first, at the expense of others in the world.

Sturgeon puts Scotland first, at the expense of others in the world.

Care to tell me what I've nissed there?

They're both about local privileges for local people.

just last week we had LJS posting to say that other members of NATO should pay Scotland's share, so that Scotland can spend it's money on Scotland instead ... while we have Trump saying that all NATO members should pay their fair share so the USA can spebnd its money on Americans.

Of those two, Trump is the more honest - cos at least he's not saying the USA won't pay its share.

 

meanwhile, what about what I actually said - and not what you've just made up....?

Is there any reason you've thrown in squirrels to hide stuff with....?

 

Does the SNP blame vulnerable syrian refugees for Scotland not being great again, and suggest building a wall/stopping immigration based on skin colour to solve the problem? are you saying the essence of SNP's policy is isolationist like Trumps?

They may (at a push) want similar things for their country, but they are going about it in very different ways

Edited December 4, 2016 by zahidf

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Are you saying that there is a racisms problem in the SNP comparable to the anti semetism problem in Labour? Or accusations of such?

as someone who follows politics closely - rather than posts morons from twitter - i know with certainty that the problem of racism and xenophobia within SNP supporters is hugely greater than any anti-semetism amongst Labour supporters.

In case it's passing you by, I'm not particularly saying that the SNP has an over-representative collection of morons compared to what you might find in other places.

My comment was in reply to what you posted about Sturgeon calling out racism elsewhere - while pretending none of it surrounds and supports her as it does those others.

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Does the SNP blame vulnerable syrian refugees for Scotland not being great again

Yep, in effect it does.

It says "stop spending money on refugees in the UK and give that money to Scotland instead because Scotland demands more" - and the more is always at the expense of something else.

Scotland already claims itself as the richest part of the UK, so perhaps you might tell me why Scotland deserves more at the expense of others...?

 

8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

, and suggest building a wall/stopping immigration based on skin colour to solve the problem? are you saying the essence of SNP's policy is isolationist like Trumps?

The essence of SNP policy is without doubt isolationist. What don't you understand about how nationalism is *only* about "me first"?

If Scotland didn't want to put itself first, there'd be no need for a party that stands on the platform of putting Scotland first.

Putting yourself first is not carey-sharey, it's about the opposite of that.

 

8 minutes ago, zahidf said:

They may (at a push) want similar things for their country, but they are going about it in very different ways

Putting yourself first is always about putting yourself first. FFS.

[LJS]

20 hours ago, lost said:

Not all indy supporters hate the English, but I think its safe to assume all the Scots that hate the English are indy supporters 

Could you be specific about this racism that is such a problem amongst SNP supporters? who care we racist against that sturgeon is condoning? 

I"m only asking so I'm clear exactly what spurious argument I am demolishing.

[Comfy Bean]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Sturgeon puts Scotland first, at the expense of others in the world.

Care to tell me what I've missed there?

 

Or....Sturgeon thinks that the people who live in Scotland - try and think about that last bit before you start branding the racism/anti English or whoever card, should be able to elect a Government to make decisions for those same people. If the people don't like the decisions or direction taken by that labour or snp government then Sturgeon's view is the people who live in Scotland and are affected by the policies taken by their government should have the power to vote them out.

At the expense of others in the world is slightly contradictory Neil when you often accuse the folks living in Scotland of stealing from the good folks in England, Wales etc.

Do you not think that Indy from rUK would reverse that " stealing " ?

On increasing immigration, I remember we discussed it in this thread before. In summary the SNP response was "GOOD "

My own view is that with more powers coming our way we need to increase numbers and increase tax revenues. Obviously this will also require more jobs but nobody said it would be easy :-)

[LJS]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yep, in effect it does.

Shite.

Quote

It says "stop spending money on refugees in the UK and give that money to Scotland instead because Scotland demands more" - and the more is always at the expense of something else.

It says Scotland should spend Scotland's money. you will find nowhere any indication that it intends to save some of that money by not taking in refugees. 

Quote

Scotland already claims itself as the richest part of the UK, so perhaps you might tell me why Scotland deserves more at the expense of others...?

Make your mind up Neil, we can't be the richest part of the UK just when it suits your argument.

Quote

 

The essence of SNP policy is without doubt isolationist. What don't you understand about how nationalism is *only* about "me first"?

Really? is this a serious point? SNP policy is clearly to be anything other than isolationist unlike the UK Tory party which has now embraced a brexit that will see the UK withdrawing from the EU.

Quote

If Scotland didn't want to put itself first, there'd be no need for a party that stands on the platform of putting Scotland first.

It's a fucking slogan. is there a political party in the world that doesn't make a similar claim. "Putting Belgium Last" is probably not a vote winner.

Quote

Putting yourself first is not carey-sharey, it's about the opposite of that.

See above.

Quote

 

Putting yourself first is always about putting yourself first. FFS.

You have tried to use this slogan to equate the SNP with Mr Trump because it is similar to make America great. the problem is it's not the make America great that we find troubling with Donald. it's the the racism & misogyny.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Or....Sturgeon thinks that the people who live in Scotland - try and think about that last bit before you start branding the racism/anti English or whoever card, should be able to elect a Government to make decisions for those same people.

If that were all it was, you'd be able to wave your flag of morality with honesty.

 

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

If the people don't like the decisions or direction taken by that labour or snp government then Sturgeon's view is the people who live in Scotland and are affected by the policies taken by their government should have the power to vote them out.

At the expense of others in the world is slightly contradictory Neil when you often accuse the folks living in Scotland of stealing from the good folks in England, Wales etc.

Do you not think that Indy from rUK would reverse that " stealing " ?

do you not think that lowering Scottish demands would reverse that "stealing"?

Indy isn't necessary for Scotland to do the right thing. 

 

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

On increasing immigration, I remember we discussed it in this thread before. In summary the SNP response was "GOOD "

I've not said differently.

But ... UKIP says immigration is good too, yet your glorious leader is probably lumping them in with the others. In fact I suspect it was UKIP at the forefront of her mind.

 

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

My own view is that with more powers coming our way we need to increase numbers and increase tax revenues. Obviously this will also require more jobs but nobody said it would be easy :-)

if you want to Increase tax revenues all scotland needs to do is use the powers it has.

That you voted to not use.

Tho you're quite happy to demand more from the UK while Scotland claims itself as the richest part of that UK. 

 

[LJS]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

UKIP says immigration is good

 

I'm sure in some bizarre world of semantics, there is a grain of truth in this statement. I think you would struggle to justify it as a fair & true reflection of UKIP's & their supporters view of immigration.

I look forward to you trying.

Edited December 4, 2016 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

It says Scotland should spend Scotland's money. you will find nowhere any indication that it intends to save some of that money by not taking in refugees. 

true, tho YOU say other countries should help Scotland polish its refugee halo by paying Scotland's NATO contribution so Scotland can spend a bit of money on refugees and a lot more of it on rich Scottish people.

Is that a bit too joined up for you? Sorry about that.

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

Make your mind up Neil, we can't be the richest part of the UK just when it suits your argument.

I'm quoting your glorious leader ads it'#s her who claims it for scotland.

Along with more money from the parts of the UK that are not as rich as Scoltland.

official SNP policy is: putting Scotland first at the expense of others in the UK

You do know that, yes?

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

Really? is this a serious point? SNP policy is clearly to be anything other than isolationist unlike the UK Tory party which has now embraced a brexit that will see the UK withdrawing from the EU.

that's merely about playing politics.

If Scotland is the carey-sharey you claim and not introspective, it would be happy to share and you wouldn't be saying that poorer countries should pay Scotland's NATO dues.

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

It's a fucking slogan. is there a political party in the world that doesn't make a similar claim. "Putting Belgium Last" is probably not a vote winner.

It's a slogan.

It's a slogan Sturgeon acts to.

Otherwise, she wouldn't have demanded that the most-preferential formula was used for the new Barnett calculations while also claiming Scoltand as the richest part of the UK.

She does it, and you back it.

It's a slogan you act to too.

 

 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

I'm sure in some bizarre world of semantics, there is a grain of truth in this statement. I think you would struggle to justify it as a fair & true reflection of UKIP's & their supporters view of immigration.

I look forward to you trying.

it's an absolutely indisputable statement of UKIP's position, just as your statement was the same for the SNP.

We both know that plenty of supporters of both parties have the same issues with those party policies.

[Comfy Bean]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

If that were all it was, you'd be able to wave your flag of morality with honesty.

 

But ... UKIP says immigration is good too, yet your glorious leader is probably lumping them in with the others. In fact I suspect it was UKIP at the forefront of her mind.

 

 

You started with Trump and now your throwing UKIP into the mix.

I accept that you actually think these are what our Indy question is about. The vast majority of folk don't see it as you do.

I see you've also managed to get "flag" in now as well :-)

Do you really think it's all about wrapped in a flag ( as you often put it ) tribalism? - serious question, hoping for a serious answer:-)

[LJS]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

it's an absolutely indisputable statement of UKIP's position, just as your statement was the same for the SNP.

We both know that plenty of supporters of both parties have the same issues with those party policies.

When you are reduced to claiming UKIP are pro-immigration to justify your argument, it's time to admit defeat Neil. I'd accept you admitting that there is no significant racist or xenophobic element within the SNP or it's supporters  as a graceful acceptance that you have been talking absolute mince.

[LJS]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

true, tho YOU say other countries should help Scotland polish its refugee halo by paying Scotland's NATO contribution so Scotland can spend a bit of money on refugees and a lot more of it on rich Scottish people.

 

Excellent Neil, spending money on guns & bombs is so much better than spending it on refugees, isn't it. 

And by the way, who is paying Germany & Italy's NATO contributions for them?

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I accept that you actually think these are what our Indy question is about.

it's about nationalism. Care to tell me how i've got that wrong?

 

[eFestivals]

21 hours ago, LJS said:

Excellent Neil, spending money on guns & bombs is so much better than spending it on refugees, isn't it. 

but it's not about spending it on refugees, it's about spending it on YOU. FFS. :lol:

There's no lie too big, is there?

 

21 hours ago, LJS said:

And by the way, who is paying Germany & Italy's NATO contributions for them?

I'll point out, again, Scotland's unique difference: that it intends to *NEVER* meet NATO terms. 

Because Scotland is so special, ever other club member wants to pay for Scotland...?

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, LJS said:

When you are reduced to claiming UKIP are pro-immigration to justify your argument, it's time to admit defeat Neil.

I'm claiming UKIP are pro-immigration because it's the truth.

You're denying it, I've no idea why. Is it because you think indy can only beat mythical enemies and can't win on the truth?

 

22 hours ago, LJS said:

I'd accept you admitting that there is no significant racist or xenophobic element within the SNP or it's supporters  as a graceful acceptance that you have been talking absolute mince.

Wings Over Scotland has never existed?

You walk around Scotland with your ears shut?

Except we both know that's not true, and you're denying now something you've been happy to admit to in the past.

If you fancy a refresher course you can just read some indy opinions (such as last week where it was flagged up again that Scots are a majority for indy, it's those damn foriegners who are not), where no other indy supporter calls it out. It doesn't get called out for the same reason you're denying it now, and for the same reason Sturgeon doesn't call it out. And that's the same as with UKIP, that the votes of racists and xenophobes are more important than morality.

[eFestivals]

22 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Do you really think it's all about wrapped in a flag ( as you often put it ) tribalism? - serious question, hoping for a serious answer:-)

For plenty it is. You, for example, where you'll deny all inconvenient facts in defence of that flag.

For others it's very definitely about the money, which is why there's still the same hardcore of 30% separatists and indy can't get over the line.

[Comfy Bean]

23 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Do you really think it's all about wrapped in a flag ( as you often put it ) tribalism? - serious question, hoping for a serious answer:-)

 

56 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

For plenty it is. You, for example

Ok.

We've all expressed a load of different views and opinions around the many many changes that Indy will bring to folk living in Scotland.

I kind of expected your answer but hoped you would have taken into account some of the other topics around Indy that we have all discussed on here, sometimes more than once :-)

 Fair enough, you didn't, it's all about opinions.

Once again here, I strongly disagree with yours.

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

Ok.

We've all expressed a load of different views and opinions around the many many changes that Indy will bring to folk living in Scotland.

I kind of expected your answer but hoped you would have taken into account some of the other topics around Indy that we have all discussed on here, sometimes more than once :-)

 Fair enough, you didn't, it's all about opinions.

Once again here, I strongly disagree with yours.

there's other topics, but you won't address them. Which leaves you just wrapped in the flag.

If you don't think that's true, perhaps you'd like to re-address your thing from last week, where you said that indy isn't about the money and that living standards in iScotland shouldn't be compared with living standards in the UK.

As I said in reply, not being compared is fine - but it's the snippers who WANT the comparison, because of all of the claims that Scotland would be as rich as it is now, when there's absolutely no basis in fact to support it (the facts say the opposite).

It's only when snippers like you face up to the facts and accept them and work forwards from that position that indy starts to not be about the money or a flag, and instead becomes about a rational consideration.

For all the while you're hiding behind myths, you're only holding the flag. 

The indy debate will only move on from the economic when the economic stops being of primary importance for an indy victory. It's indy supporters who are holding indy back, no one else.

Of course, we all know why they won't move on from the economic, and that's that indy is a dead duck if Scots would be voting themselves poorer.

Edited December 5, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I'm claiming UKIP are pro-immigration because it's the truth.

You're denying it, I've no idea why. Is it because you think indy can only beat mythical enemies and can't win on the truth?

 

Wings Over Scotland has never existed?

You walk around Scotland with your ears shut?

Except we both know that's not true, and you're denying now something you've been happy to admit to in the past.

If you fancy a refresher course you can just read some indy opinions (such as last week where it was flagged up again that Scots are a majority for indy, it's those damn foriegners who are not), where no other indy supporter calls it out. It doesn't get called out for the same reason you're denying it now, and for the same reason Sturgeon doesn't call it out. And that's the same as with UKIP, that the votes of racists and xenophobes are more important than morality.

Guess we'll have to agree to differ on this one. my view based on a lifetime living working & raising a family is Scotland clearly differs from yours which is  based on some nutters on the internet.