The Dirty Independence Question

[russycarps]

by the look of his reply, I'd say you wasted your time.

He only wants something to ridicule if it's different to what he thinks, there's nothing the facts can teach him.

I would like to see alex salmond try to threaten OPEC in the same way he's trying to threaten the EU and England. I wonder how bright the scottish economy would look if oil prices fell to $80 a barrel? or $70, or $60? All saudi arabia has to do is open up the spigots.

[eFestivals]

I would like to see alex salmond try to threaten OPEC in the same way he's trying to threaten the EU and England. I wonder how bright the scottish economy would look if oil prices fell to $80 a barrel? or $70, or $60? All saudi arabia has to do is open up the spigots.

To be fair, Scotland is far more likely to get screwed by a high price of oil than a low one - despite that sounding counter-intuitive.

[LJS]

To be fair, Scotland is far more likely to get screwed by a high price of oil than a low one - despite that sounding counter-intuitive.

Heads,we lose

Tails, we lose

[eFestivals]

Heads,we lose

Tails, we lose

Facts always remain facts, and changes in one place always have an effect in another.

You're voting for change, remember? That means that things change.

And you're not voting for the sham white paper version, where everything stays the same but better. At some point down the line iScotland is going to have to accept this, either before or after the vote.

[russycarps]

Heads,we lose

Tails, we lose

The point is you are at the mercy of something you have absolutely no control over. You cant even decide yourselves how much oil you extract.

[eFestivals]

The point is you are at the mercy of something you have absolutely no control over.

exactly that.

While it's the same within the UK, what happens with the price of oil (either up or down) has far less impact onto the UK's economy, because oil is a lesser part of the UK's economy than it would be for iScotland.

This is one of the advantages of a big state compared to a small state.

It's much harder for a big and economically diverse state to be screwed by affairs in the wider world than is the case with a small state - and particularly a small state where a substantial part of its economy is within just one industry.

But worse still for Scotland is that a substantial part of its economy is within just two industries, where both are hugely dependent on outside factors and where ones of those (banking) carries with it a risk that iScotland couldn't satisfactorily* cover.

(* in the opinion of the money markets, not mine, or any anti-iScotland campaign).

Scotland can choose to lose its risky financial sector of course, but that also loses it (on average) VERY significant tax revenue which then make the white paper sums very wrong and the financial position of an iScotland nothing like Alex suggests.

[LJS]

The point is you are at the mercy of something you have absolutely no control over. You cant even decide yourselves how much oil you extract.

That pesky future's kind of uncertain too.

[LJS]

and yet it's the same unanswerable question (in reality if not in theory) for an iScotland. Why is that passing you by?

Dave Moron might be a tory c**t, but that doesn't get to mean that he's not genuine in his belief that the policies he's pursuing are to bring about a better future society.

There should be a bit of food for thought there, but I'm not sure your brain is hungry.

I frankly couldn't care what DC's motivations or whether he thinks he's making the UK a better place.

I think he isn't & I can't see a realistic prospect of any of the UK parties doing so.

I know you disagree, but I have given my reasons why I think there is a chance things might be different in iScotland.

[russycarps]

That pesky future's kind of uncertain too.

Tell that to the Yes campaign then. They seem VERY certain about scotland's future prospects.

See that laughable poster up the page for further details.

[eFestivals]

I frankly couldn't care what DC's motivations or whether he thinks he's making the UK a better place.

I think he isn't & I can't see a realistic prospect of any of the UK parties doing so.

I know you disagree, but I have given my reasons why I think there is a chance things might be different in iScotland.

And yet the motivations of those Scottish politicians will be identical (of wanting to do what they think is good) so there's no better guarantee of success, particularly when you join up the dots to realise they'll all be cultured in UK political culture.

And when you're far enough removed from it all that none of it matters back on you, it's plain to see that there's an identical political culture of victory thru lies.

[eFestivals]

Tell that to the Yes campaign then. They seem VERY certain about scotland's future prospects.

See that laughable poster up the page for further details.

but ... but ... but ...

Scotland - presumably only Scotland, else why mention it? - has "industrious and creative people".

Gawd dammit. How am I gonna get my car fixed after iDay? Will I have to drive 300+ miles north?

[Comfy Bean]

Tell that to the Yes campaign then. They seem VERY certain about scotland's future prospects.

See that laughable poster up the page for further details.

I`m giving you the benefit of the doubt here but you do realise that the poster was posted in jest right ? It was posted in the context of the conversation at that time around politicians from both sides !!!! who will pick up on some bullshit and make it fit with their side of the argument often ignoring the facts. I think I said something about the voters using their bullshitometer to try and rise above it and make the " right " decision as they see it. I think I originally posted a poster advising that we would be taken over by aliens if we voted No. For the benefit of the doubt I was also joking there and I didn`t even include a with that one or say in the post after it that it was tongue in cheek but again I`m pretty sure you knew that..........

Edited April 29, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

Here it is.... posted a couple of pages back and just for the record it I`m not expecting it to be true, or am I

Edited April 29, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

but ... but ... but ...

Scotland - presumably only Scotland, else why mention it? - has "industrious and creative people".

Gawd dammit. How am I gonna get my car fixed after iDay? Will I have to drive 300+ miles north?

Unlikely mate. Not unless your car can drive through a mile high drystane dyke

[eFestivals]

Here it is.... posted a couple of pages back and just for the record it I`m not expecting it to be true, or am I

Someone should do the funnier one, of a sovereign nation state which is against all nuclear weapons but is damned determined to be protected by nuclear weapons.

[Comfy Bean]

Someone should do the funnier one, of a sovereign nation state which is against all nuclear weapons but is damned determined to be protected by nuclear weapons.

It won`t be me sir. I`ve posted my last poster ! Waaaay too much grief

[Buff124]

Here it is.... posted a couple of pages back and just for the record it I`m not expecting it to be true, or am I

Spooky that you mentioned the aliens thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxzdkaaafms

[eFestivals]

Spooky that you mentioned the aliens thing

what has the most realistic and intelligent extra-terrestial weapons vision?

Aliens, Hammond, or iScotland?

The answer is: anyone before iScotland.

"We're against nuclear weapons, but if you don't save us from attack with those nuclear weapons, we'll cry and then call you English tories who went to Eton... even if you're the yanks".

[LJS]

Spooky that you mentioned the aliens thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxzdkaaafms

lovely

[LJS]

And yet the motivations of those Scottish politicians will be identical (of wanting to do what they think is good) so there's no better guarantee of success, particularly when you join up the dots to realise they'll all be cultured in UK political culture.

And when you're far enough removed from it all that none of it matters back on you, it's plain to see that there's an identical political culture of victory thru lies.

This is a ludicrous argument

I guess Margaret Thatcher wanted to do what she thought was good. I'm pretty sure Mahatma Ghandi did too.

I would suggest one achieved more good than the other.

So just because 2 lots of politicians want to do good does not mean the outcome will be the same.

the outcome will depend on what they believe to be good & how good they are at acheiving that

Other than that pretty spurious point you are not saying anything you have not said before.

We disagree on this.

I have given my reasons. you have given yours.

We still disagree.

You repeating the same argument ad nauseum will not alter this.

[kaosmark2]

Actually, I don't agree that all politicians want to do what they think is best for the country. Gideon doesn't give a shit about anyone else, he just wants to cut inheritance taxes before his parents cop it so he can get more moolah. He wants to sell off the country's assets not because he thinks it's best served by being corporate, but because those services can net a hefty chunk of profit for his mates.

I don't know whether Cameron does actually mean well and just has no grasp on reality or sense, or is another self-absorbed c**t out to leech from society for his own benefit. Both seem fairly plausible.

[Buff124]

"We're against nuclear weapons, but if you don't save us from attack with those nuclear weapons, ".

Any sane person would conclude that nuclear weapons are a bloody stupid idea. It wasn't called the M.A.D. doctrine for nuthin.

Who are iScotland's likely attackers ? Can't think of anyone.

Okay, as part of NATO then. Russia ? Former NATO chief Lord Robertson recently said that Russia should be a NATO member. China ? The West owes them so much money they would take ownership rather than destroy the real estate.

Its pretty obvious that nuclear weapons should be illegal.

[LJS]

I kind of like the Bullshitometer analogy

Pretty much whichever area of the independence debate you look at it you can find convincing cases being made on each side, by people who appear to be qualified.

The problem for the voter is who to believe. Now I have stated again & again that I am not an expert on economics, geology, International petro-politics, jam making etc etc. Sometimes I get ridiculed a bit for this ( although I note that those who ridicule me have not shared where their areas of expertise lie)

What I have great experience in is judging when to trust & when not to trust politicians and more importantly the "evidence" produced to support their positions.

This will be the 4th referendum in which I have voted and God knows how many elections I have voted in, So although I may not be an expert: I am experienced.

If there is one thing that experience has taught me it is that you can safely disregard the more extreme claims on either side of the argument. To me that is just common sense. It's also common sense to be wary of pronouncements from people or organisations with a clear vested interest in the result. It should also be treated with caution. It is also reasonable to factor in the inbuilt conservatism (small C) of the British Establishment - tell me about a time they have welcomed change with open arms)

Now all of the above judgements will be highly subjective but since in my opinion there are no indisputable facts here, its pretty hard to avoid that.

And what are my findings after my highly personal & subjective "research?"

In the short term we might be a bit better off (in the broadest sense - not the jammy sense) or we might be a bit worse off. probably a mix of the two - better off in some ways worse off in others.

Hardly sounds like a battle cry for independence!

Why bother, I hear you say?

Well firstly, this is not a decision which should be made because of the difference it will make in a year or two or even 5 years or 10 years. As Neil has pointed out iScotland is for life not just for Xmas. (which incidentally makes all the argy bargy about a couple of pence off corporation tax, or is Alex Salmond great or rubbish - no more than a distraction to the real question)

And its not a revolution we are having, so it would be unrealistic to expect massive change overnight.

I have already spoken at length about my hopes for a fairer, more equal society and why I believe there is more chance of that being achieved in iScotland than in the present UK - I won't repeat myself on that subject but it is one important reason why I shall be voting yes.

The other main reason is kind of common sense, I think. Neil likes to pretend that I claim there has been some massive anti-Scottish conspiracy by variously, the Tories, Westminster & the English in general. I have refuted this before. Its not that there is a conspiracy against Scotland, its just that we are not the first priority of a London government - & neither should we be - a London government should make decision based on the best interests of the entire population of the UK. (how well it actually does that & whether it favours London & the South East is a different debate).

It just seems common sense that a government based in Edinburgh whose priority is to make decisions which are in the interests of the 5 million people in Scotland will result in better government & ultimately a better future.

And you know what, in 20 years or more, we might even see a little bit of jam.

[Buff124]

Edited April 29, 2014 by Buff124

[LJS]

I don't know whether Cameron does actually mean well and just has no grasp on reality or sense, or is another self-absorbed c**t out to leech from society for his own benefit. Both seem fairly plausible.

I suspect the truth, as in so much, lies somewhere in between.

and of course one person's idea of what is "good" will be very different from another's.

Anyway i'll stop before it turns into the "dirty philosophy question"

By the way ... I'n no expert in philosophy...

Edited April 29, 2014 by LJS