The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Look at how shit Scotland is performing while tied in with rule brittania and governed by the principles and policies of a Tory government.

that's not you blaming Westminster....?  PMSL

How 'shit' Scotland is performing is due to how much Scotland spends, and not because it's neglected by Westminster.

As proven by revenue raising in Scotland being about the same as the UK average, and of unemployment and other economic factors being about the same as the UK average.

The only headline figure for Scotland that's wildly out of step with the UK average is Scotland's spend-per-person.

So nothing shit about Westminster. The problem is squarely based in Scotland, and the spending can only be maintained if indy if scotland were to outperform the UK average with revenue raising.

Which you admit is unlikely because of it's geography.

Which means the greater (than now) poverty for Scotland that you want to deny.

[Comfy Bean]

Principles and policies of a Tory government who sit in Westminster.

I'll put it like that in future although I guess you and I will probably still disagree on what the key word is in that statement.

Oh and Congrats on dragging the convo away from the specific points I was attempting to make :-)

 

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Principles and policies of a Tory government who sit in Westminster.

I'll put it like that in future although I guess you and I will probably still disagree on what the key word is in that statement.

Oh and Congrats on dragging the convo away from the specific points I was attempting to make :-)

 

Care to tell me why (say) Ireland isn't as rich as the UK?
(note: 'rich' as in how far the money goes. GDP, etc, are red herrings. Ireland has better GDP but is poorer in spending power)

Is it because it's not run by those nasty horrible tories?

Nope, it can't be that, it must be something else. Perhaps it's something else in Scotland too....?

Blaming the tories is merely another cop-out to deny the fact that iScotland would be poorer.

Much like Scotland itself, the myth factory is working hard but it gets Scotland no richer.

Again, you prove indy is about the money by denying the facts of money.

Edited December 23, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Oh and Congrats on dragging the convo away from the specific points I was attempting to make :-)

you have a point other than repeating myth after myth after myth to deny the facts with....?

 

[LJS]

On 22/12/2016 at 7:34 AM, eFestivals said:

If you became indy tomorrow, there's a £15Bn deficit to be dealt with.

But we won't

On 22/12/2016 at 7:34 AM, eFestivals said:

In just ten years, not dealing with that £15Bn deficit

Why would we not deal with it? I'm certainly not suggesting that - I'm stating the fact that it si already decreasing at £1bn + per year. I would expect any government of an independent Scotland to look to continue that decrease whilst looking for some savings in the money that the UK currently spends on our behalf. 

On 22/12/2016 at 7:34 AM, eFestivals said:

will add - that's *ADD* - 100% of GDP to Scotland's existing debts of around 90% of GDP. No fucker is going to lend a newly independent Scotland that percentage of GDP. 

It's ok because we wouldn't be starting now so, is deficit reduction continues we certainly won't be starting at £15bn and we wouldn't continue to spend money on the same things the UK spends money on. 

On 22/12/2016 at 7:34 AM, eFestivals said:

In fact, no fucker is going to lend it money beyond 100% of GDP, because it has no credit history and a stonking deficit.

We'll just need to keep our deficit under 100% then , won't we? increasing GDP will of course help.

On 22/12/2016 at 7:34 AM, eFestivals said:

So yes, overnight - or three years at very very most - is all you have to get the deficit under 3%.

The huge pain of huge cuts is simply unavoidable.

It's already reducing & you and your mate Kev insist there have been no cuts. Imagine being able to cut the deficit without cutting spending!  And you said it was impossible.

 

Ooops Neil!

 

 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

But we won't

But you might be indy in 2019 and have a deficit of much the same size to be dealt with.

The only fix is massive cuts to public spending. Any conclusion other than that is major denial.

 

Quote

Why would we not deal with it? I'm certainly not suggesting that - I'm stating the fact that it si already decreasing at £1bn + per year. I would expect any government of an independent Scotland to look to continue that decrease whilst looking for some savings in the money that the UK currently spends on our behalf. 

But they wouldn't be able "to continue that decrease".

The decrease would have to be HUGELY faster. It's simply not possible to cover with borrowings, which means MUCH bigger cuts than the tories have made.

Meanwhile it's looking likely right now that the Scottish deficit will be rising within 2 years, too.

 

Quote

It's ok because we wouldn't be starting now so, is deficit reduction continues we certainly won't be starting at £15bn and we wouldn't continue to spend money on the same things the UK spends money on. 

like pensions, and scotland's poor? Yeah, i know.

Your "wouldn't continue to spend money on the same things the UK spends money on" means cuts to public spending - which is Scotland getting poorer.

And If there was the magic richer you imagine, the greedy tories would already be doing it, if your standard take on the tories greed is accurate.

 

Quote

We'll just need to keep our deficit under 100% then , won't we? increasing GDP will of course help.

You mean debt, not deficit.

And keeping it under 100% would put off the MASSIVE cuts for just a year or two.

Increasing GDP will help, but it just can't be increased fast enough to avoid the cuts. Salmond estimated it would take 120 years to make up the difference.

 

Quote

It's already reducing & you and your mate Kev insist there have been no cuts. Imagine being able to cut the deficit without cutting spending!  And you said it was impossible.

There have been cuts in the percentage of the deficit because spending has been flat but GDP has grown.

 

Quote

Ooops Neil!

the oooops it yours alone.

You complain about "austerity" but advocate it as Scotland's salvation.

Do you wear your tartan-tory-on-steroids badge with pride?

Edited December 24, 2016 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

On 12/23/2016 at 10:31 AM, eFestivals said:

 

Blaming the tories is merely another cop-out to deny the fact that iScotland would be poorer.

 

Seasons greetings 

Do you think it`s possible that Scotland, or England if you like, would benefit from different policies and priorities than we currently have under the Tories ?

[eFestivals]

20 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Seasons greetings 

Do you think it`s possible that Scotland, or England if you like, would benefit from different policies and priorities than we currently have under the Tories ?

Quite possibly, but it's not the massive gain you want to believe.

If Scotland could be the 20% more economically productive so that keeping the current spending could be done, everywhere (not just Scotland) would already be doing it meaning there's not that 20% extra to be had.

Any gains that might be had via policies are extremely marginal, at least in the round. For every improvement by policy they'll also be a fuck-up by policy .... unless people living in Scotland are exceptionally good - better than everywhere else in the world - at public administration?

(more likely, given the SNP's record, is that there won't be much fuck-ups, but there won't be much else either. It doesn't get more conservative in govt than from the SNP).

And further, if there's these fantastic gains to be made after indy, why can't Sturgeon or anyone else tell us how they'll be done before indy, outside of using grand but empty rhetoric?

It's all very well wanting a better tomorrow, but thinking that your wildest dreams will be fulfilled when no one at all can tell you how it will be done is one for the morons only.

Have you heard of Krugman, one of 'the left's favourite economists...?

Quote

Let me tell you about a dirty little secret of economics — namely, that we don’t know very much about how to raise the long-run rate of economic growth. Economists do know how to promote recovery from temporary slumps, even if politicians usually refuse to take their advice. But once the economy is near full employment, further growth depends on raising output per worker. And while there are things that might help make that happen, the truth is that nobody knows how to conjure up rapid productivity gains.

So if you believe Scotland can outperform the current levels by a meaningful amount, you know more than the world's best economists.  So just maybe, your hopes are waaaay beyond the possible...? 

Nah, it couldn't be that could it? Scots are exceptional.

Edited December 31, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Happy New Year y'all.

For Neil, here is the latest offering from Common Weal on how to set up a Scottish currency.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10051/new-report-how-make-currency-practical-guide

Usual and sadly necessary disclaimer: I haven't read the report & am not making any claims for it.

 

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

Happy New Year y'all.

For Neil, here is the latest offering from Common Weal on how to set up a Scottish currency.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10051/new-report-how-make-currency-practical-guide

Usual and sadly necessary disclaimer: I haven't read the report & am not making any claims for it.

 

it's one thing to say "let's have our own currency", but what's far more difficult is convincing the Scottish population to give up the pound. There's a reason why it was impossible in 2014 for Salmond to say "they'll be a new Scottish sovereign currency".

Still, the fact that this is being discussed at all is progress for indy, because it's facing up to the truth (which makes a change). An indy campaign that has to lie to itself is as fucked-up as it gets - cos having a sovereign currency and central bank is an absolute requirement for EU membership. 

Of course, attached to that is the absolute requirement to join the Euro too (if joining the EU) - which is yet another factor (like a Scottish currency) which makes indy less attractive and less likely to be won.

Unfortunately, having already read a lot of comment around this in the last day or two, this part is where the snippers fall back to lies. They point at Sweden and say "Sweden hasn't joined the Euro so iScotland won't have to either", but that's a lie. Sweden has different "join the Euro" rules than members since 1999 have, which essentially gives it an opt-out mechanism which won't be available to iScotland.

And further, an iScotland which is saying "we won't join the Euro" is not going to be the new EU member that's committed to 'the EU project' that Scotland claims of itself, and would make the current members wary of accepting Scotland as a member. It will reveal Scotland as little different to the UK which is heading for the exit, as not a committed member. They'll be no fast EU entry for the iScotland which is making clear it has no interest in the Euro.

As for what that plan says, it doesn't recognise the likelihood of 'capital flight' - which is likely to be a big problem, particularly with its suggested 3-year change-over, and where it's a no-brainer that the value of a Scot's savings can be guaranteed by staying with Sterling while exchanging to the new Scottish pound will carry big risks. It gets very difficult to successfully make the currency change when everyone knows its coming so can take action to protect themselves.

(and there's also a huge number of new myths being spread around the edges of this new currency idea too [just go read the comments at the Herald, for example] - tho whether that's merely ignorance and stupidity or because it needs to the lies to sustain the idea isn't yet clear).

As I say, tho, it's progress to face up to the necessity of a new currency. If indy is ever won by Scotland it's much better that it's not won on lies.

[eFestivals]

PS: the elephant in the room with joining the Euro - which as I say is an absolute requirement for new EU members (go read the joining terms of the newer members and compare with Sweden)  - is what comes along with it.

Which is....? No greater financial freedom for the Scottish Govt than it has as part of the UK.

Because by 2025 the EU will set the tax and spending limits for the Eurozone and the Euro members.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/emu/index_en.htm

The further you dive in, the deeper the issues that a successful indy campaign would have to overcome. Good luck with that.

[Comfy Bean]

On 30/12/2016 at 1:46 PM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Do you think it`s possible that Scotland, or England if you like, would benefit from different policies and priorities than we currently have under the Tories ?

 

On 31/12/2016 at 10:08 AM, eFestivals said:

Quite possibly...

Happy New Year.

Agreed 

As I have said before, the Tories have nothing to lose seat wise ( one ) up here so while I might not be happy that Scotland is far from a priority for a Tory Govt sitting in London, I can understand it. The same can probably be said by our friends in the North of England and in Wales. 

Do you also agree that free movement / immigration is vital to the future of Scotland as we look to make full use of tax powers down the road ? Again this is not a Tory priority but this time Scotland has all 32 counts voting to remain but we see a different story with our friends in the North of England, Wales etc.

Again, I`m saying different priorities, not better or worse or exceptional 

So we need a Govt who will see investment and jobs in Scotland as a top priority and will also keep us in the single market and encourage immigration to our shores ( as per how we voted ). What can possibly go wrong.... better together lol !

Nick Clegg Deputy PM :

David Cameron and George Osborne are brilliant tacticians – the general election result in England is evidence of that – but sometimes they can be too cunning for their own good.

Whenever Scotland was on the agenda I saw time and time again how they sought to secure short-term political advantage before the long-term interests of Scotland and the Scottish people.

[Comfy Bean]

On 01/01/2017 at 8:35 PM, LJS said:

Happy New Year y'all.

For Neil, here is the latest offering from Common Weal on how to set up a Scottish currency.

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10051/new-report-how-make-currency-practical-guide

Usual and sadly necessary disclaimer: I haven't read the report & am not making any claims for it.

 

All the best sir !

The EU stuff may well have converted a few " soft " NO`s but for sure, a satisfactory outcome to the currency question would be a game changer. We need to avoid the spectacle of Lord Darling asking a group of pensioners ( again ) if they are going to be spending their pensions in " Groat Land " !

I can already spend pounds, euros, bit coins so would like to see progress in advance of the next vote.

 

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Agreed 

It's all very well you agreeing, but the problem indy has is getting the people of Scotland to agree to being poorer to be indy.

It's never going to happen unless the likes of you firstly face up to that 'poorer'. Everything you post is designed to pretend that part isn't there.

(you might get indy the lie of not owning up to that of course, but that will only mean that the advocates of indy and what they advocate with it will be rejected post indy, to welcome iScotland to the new tory age - the exact opposite of what you want to achieve via indy)

34 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Do you also agree that free movement / immigration is vital to the future of Scotland as we look to make full use of tax powers down the road ?

Nope, I don't agree.

With or without immigration Scotland faces the same problem as the whole-UK does, of (in real terms) reducing average tax revenues per-person against the growing pensions bill. Immigration can off-set a little of that but not by enough when the need for the infrastructure for those new people has to be provided too. It's a short-term plug, not a long-term fix.

What's more vital is facing up to where we are in order to plan a sustainable way forwards - tho that's not going to happen. As far as politicians go, kicking the can down the road is better for their careers than admitting we all (on average*) face reducing incomes in real terms over our lifetimes, because the voters want to believe only in 'better'.

(* this gets masked to a large degree as far as individuals are concerned because of how incomes tend to increase over a person's working life).

 

34 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Again this is not a Tory priority but this time Scotland has all 32 counts voting to remain but we see a different story with our friends in the North of England, Wales etc.

And when 32 counts don't vote indy but indy wins, will you take a different line to this one?

42 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

So we need a Govt who will see investment and jobs in Scotland as a top priority

How about firstly coming up with a better plan of stealing jobs from other territories?

The problem with the indy-ists take is that they talk big but only have the tory-c**tishness of a race to the bottom as the solution, which is no solution and where Scotland would get fucked over by the likes of rUK which could always undercut the unchangably-financially-weaker Scotland (because a rural Scotland can never have the same efficiencies as less rural alternatives).

Scotland can only match rUK's economic output via massively greater public spending - it's inescapable - yet that greater public spending becomes impossible if indy.

You can dream big, but the dreams can never change the facts on the ground.

 

42 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

and will also keep us in the single market and encourage immigration to our shores ( as per how we voted ). What can possibly go wrong.... better together lol !

what could go wrong?

Scotland could try self-funding, and then you'll see how it all goes badly wrong. Poorer is the inescapable of indy.

48 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Whenever Scotland was on the agenda I saw time and time again how they sought to secure short-term political advantage before the long-term interests of Scotland and the Scottish people.

because the SNP don't do this too....? PMSL.

If they don't, why the HUGE lies in the latest budget paper?

Politicians of all shades mug the electorate. Who knew? 

 

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

All the best sir !

The EU stuff may well have converted a few " soft " NO`s but for sure, a satisfactory outcome to the currency question would be a game changer. We need to avoid the spectacle of Lord Darling asking a group of pensioners ( again ) if they are going to be spending their pensions in " Groat Land " !

I can already spend pounds, euros, bit coins so would like to see progress in advance of the next vote.

 

There is no real satisfactory answer to the currency question given the UK cultural circumstances and how they impact on Scottish thinking.

The only possible way for it to work out well will be for an SG to mug the people of Scotland by saying they won't change currency and then doing it anyway without any notice - but even then that's no guarantee of it working out well (and they'd be millions of mightily pissed off Scots to deal with long before anyone found out if it had worked out well).

As soon as leaving the pound and going via a Scottish currency to the Euro gets talked about, support for indy will slump. People will prefer the certainty of sticking with what they have to a leap into the unknown.

[Comfy Bean]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

How about firstly coming up with a better plan of stealing jobs from other territories?

 

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

That's the only plan anyone in Scotland has vocalised.

Saying "we'll grow the economy" is easy to say. Having a plan to do it is something else. get back to me when you can show me a plan.

Meanwhile, here's Krugman's "dirty little secret again, as you seem to have forgotten already...

let me tell you about a dirty little secret of economics — namely, that we don’t know very much about how to raise the long-run rate of economic growth. Economists do know how to promote recovery from temporary slumps, even if politicians usually refuse to take their advice. But once the economy is near full employment, further growth depends on raising output per worker. And while there are things that might help make that happen, the truth is that nobody knows how to conjure up rapid productivity gains.

 

[Comfy Bean]

31 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Politicians of all shades mug the electorate. Who knew? 

 

 

This is a fair point.... but below is what Clegg says he saw from his position as deputy PM. I was using his quote to highlight my point that Scotland is of course way down on the Tories priority list.

Do you think this is a concern or do you not believe Clegg ?

" Whenever Scotland was on the agenda I saw time and time again how they sought to secure short-term political advantage before the long-term interests of Scotland and the Scottish people. "

 

Hopefully you continue with the term " other territories " for rUK. It`s a new one but already a favourite 

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

That's the only plan anyone in Scotland has vocalised.

 

 

Is it ? Are you sure ?

The plan is to steal jobs from other territories ?

Utter drivel !

Define " vocalised ".

Edited January 5, 2017 by comfortablynumb1910

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

This is a fair point.... but below is what Clegg says he saw from his position as deputy PM. I was using his quote to highlight my point that Scotland is of course way down on the Tories priority list.

Do you think this is a concern or do you not believe Clegg ?

" Whenever Scotland was on the agenda I saw time and time again how they sought to secure short-term political advantage before the long-term interests of Scotland and the Scottish people. "

What have you missed about the tories promoting the SNP to undermine Labour?

THAT'S what Clegg is talking about. Enabling the SNP, not for Scotland's advantage but for the tories own advantage.

And you help the tories by going along with it, and burying your head in the sand about the facts of indy and even stuff like the latest HUGE budget lies.

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Is it ? Are you sure ?

The plan is to steal jobs from other territories ?

Utter drivel !

Define " vocalised ".

undercutting the UK's corp-tax rate - it's the *ONLY* plan anyone in Scoltland has suggested. Where the fuck were you? :lol:

Now, why not do what I said, and tell me a real plan.... or can't you do that, because there isn't one?

Oh, there isn't one. Because?

And we're back to Krugman's dirty little secret again.

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Is it ? Are you sure ?

The plan is to steal jobs from other territories ?

Utter drivel !

Define " vocalised ".

 

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

undercutting the UK's corp-tax rate - it's the *ONLY* plan anyone in Scoltland has suggested. Where the fuck were you?

 

I know where I was when the corp tax planned was scrapped 

Do keep up 

We now have the SNP refusing to pass on the latest high earner tax " cut " while increasing the council tax on the higher bands.

Ruth is screaming about getting a sign at the border " Higher taxes here "

Anywayz, can you link to the plan to steal jobs from other territories ( as you put it ) ? I like how you actually believe that is the cunning plan for indy 

 

 

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

What have you missed about the tories promoting the SNP to undermine Labour?

THAT'S what Clegg is talking about. Enabling the SNP, not for Scotland's advantage but for the tories own advantage.

And you help the tories by going along with it, and burying your head in the sand about the facts of indy and even stuff like the latest HUGE budget lies.

 

I`ve quoted what Nick said. I didn`t need to as anyone with half a brain would already realise that Scotland ( 1 seat ) was / is never going to be a Tory investment priority !

I thought that you might have found his view interesting as he is not a dirty snipper etc. 

Let`s just disregard the views of the man who was deputy PM and run with SNP bad instead. Same as it ever was 

With Indy, any party ( SNP or Labour ) who continually put their own interests ahead of the voters who live in Scotland would be out on their ear and replaced.

As part of the union we will have the Tories followed by the Tories no matter how we vote and according to the deputy PM "  Whenever Scotland was on the agenda I saw time and time again how they sought to secure short-term political advantage before the long-term interests of Scotland and the Scottish people "

Save the union at all costs !!!

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

I know where I was when the corp tax planned was scrapped 

Do keep up 

We now have the SNP refusing to pass on the latest high earner tax " cut " while increasing the council tax on the higher bands.

Ruth is screaming about getting a sign at the border " Higher taxes here "

Anywayz, can you link to the plan to steal jobs from other territories ( as you put it ) ? I like how you actually believe that is the cunning plan for indy 

Yes, I know the SNP have said they've given up the corp tax cut, but it's the *ONLY* suggestion anyone's had for growing the Scottish economy in a way that's (in theory) beneficial.
(immigration isn't beneficial to any meaningful extent; the extra tax income is swallowed by the extra spending needed for more people)

The fact that you're unable to say how the economy might be grown to cover the higher spending in Scotland only proves no one has a plan.

And you trying to move the convo onto something else only proves that you know it, too.

 

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I`ve quoted what Nick said. I didn`t need to as anyone with half a brain would already realise that Scotland ( 1 seat ) was / is never going to be a Tory investment priority !

Clegg said some words, but didn't say what he was specifically talking about.

And Scotland *VERY CLEARLY IS* a tory spending priority, because it's not getting the cuts that the rest of the UK is getting.

The one MP part is just your diversion from what the tories have achieved via YOUR vote - their eternal power, for the moment at least.

 

8 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Let`s just disregard the views of the man who was deputy PM and run with SNP bad instead. Same as it ever was 

Let's just make up some bollocks and claim that's what Clegg meant.

Oh, too late, you already have.

 

8 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

With Indy, any party ( SNP or Labour ) who continually put their own interests ahead of the voters who live in Scotland would be out on their ear and replaced.

PMSL.

For things to play out like that you'd firstly need an electorate who understood their interests.

That would be an electorate who didn't blame the tories for the non-existent 'austerity' in Scotland, and instead held the SNP to account for the cuts the SNP and not the tories are making.

 

8 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As part of the union we will have the Tories followed by the Tories no matter how we vote and according to the deputy PM " 

Whenever Scotland was on the agenda I saw time and time again how they sought to secure short-term political advantage before the long-term interests of Scotland and the Scottish people "

Save the union at all costs !!!

You've just made it up, again. :lol:

The tories advantage is maintained by supporting the SNP, exactly as they've been doing.