The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

46 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Neil, I quoted Curtis yesterday as he explains the specific question Sturgeon was asked. This allows her widely reported reply to be kept in context.

Do you think we are heading for a soft brexit that will see us all staying in the single market?

If you don't, then I suspect you agree with Sturgeon.

I doubt we're heading for soft brexit.

Not only would I be agreeing with Sturgeon in saying that, i'd be agreeing with the likes of Farage too.

What relevance do opinions on where we might be heading have to Scottish indy? None at all.

 

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Sturgeon is playing the long game here in my opinion. You underestimate her if you think she has accidentally backed herself into a corner. 

The long game is actually very short, from Sturgeon's own words. Her talk has been (in the past, if not now) that the indyref would be before the UK had finally exited the EU. Salmond has repeated the same within the last month too.

So what you call "the long game" is a game that everyone expects to be done and dusted by March 2019 (if May's timetable is stuck to), not very long at all.

Given that we all know that Sturgeon would have had the ref yesterday if she thought it could be won, your own words about how a 2nd indyref is more likely at a later point than March 2019 is actually your own recognition that Sturgeon HAS backed herself into a corner by saying it would happen sooner.

FFS.

 

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You may be right that part of the reason for the long game is at this moment, she doesn't think she has the numbers. Being perceived as rushing headlong at another ref as soon as possible will almost certainly mean she doesn't have the numbers in my opinion.

So she HAS backed herself into a corner.

She's called it too soon, or at least, she's spoken words about it being before March 2019 when even you don't think that's likely.

(she's fucked up bigly with that, tho i'm happy to agree that her expectations of a bigger public reaction in Scotland to brexit weren't unreasonable - but they've turned out to be wrong all the same. It's going to take something extra to brexit - even hard brexit - to get the support she needs).

 

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Another factor is our local elections being on the horizon I think where the tories will campaign against Indy ref 2.

Stuff i'm reading is currently suggesting that the SNP aren't going to do as well in those as some might be thinking.

Yep, they'll take Glasgow easily by the look of things, but outside of the central belt indy is now seen as the central belt (most particularly Glasgow) wanting to ride off the back of the rest of the country. How strong that it isn't clear to me, but it's something which wasn't there even 6 months ago, and it's a significant change in attitudes.

 

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NS has made her play. We want to stay in the single market. Indy ref is currently off the table. It's over to May and the tories to deliver what we want.

And i'll point out that fewer people in scotland voted to stay in the EU than voted for indy - which was lost, don't forget.

Sturgeon's first play was staying in the EU, but you now want to pretend that part never happened.

May has already made clear they'll be a whole-UK brexit, and not a differentiated one. It's back with Sturgeon already.

She's abandoned her pledge to do what's best for Scotland, because she makes clear that indy is best for Scotland but she's prepared to do something else. Sturgeon's play now is about saving her own career, and fuck all about what's best for Scotland. 

And saving her own career has to be done and dusted by March 2019. If there's been no indyref before we exit the EU, she's the woman who's cried wolf too many times, and it's game over for her as far as influence within the UK goes. She can keep gobbing off, but no one will be listening beyond knowing that she's whining yet again.

Her support in Scotland might be sustained (tho even that is far from certain for a number of good reasons), but I can't see her wanting to remain in office as the joke figure crying wolf will have made her. She'll be nothing more than a local councillor in her effect.

 

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In the meantime, let's take care of business at the local council elections. I suspect after they are done and May takes us down a hard brexit then Indy ref comes back onto the table. Probably with the snp running all our biggest councils including Glasgow.

Calling an indyref is the easy bit. Winning it, not so much.

There's all of the same factors as before - currency, deficit, UK single market. Plus new bad factors too.

With the deficit problem now (compared to 2014) written in red ink, bolded, and underlined because what "better together" said about oil revenues has been proven.

And with Scotland still firmly attached to the pound, not wanting to risk a change with huge expense and even huger risks, but with a change being 100% necessary in order to join the EU (and remember, joining the EU is now the claimed purpose for quitting the UK), and with a further change to the Euro firmly-certain down the line (and not long down the line either).

(Note: don't give me the Sweden currency bollocks. Their EU treaty arrangements have different terms [much like the UK's opt-outs] to all members since 1999. There are EU convergence 'czars' to force new member countries along the path of convergence)

Then there's the fact that from an economic viewpoint, there's no benefit in leaving the UK single market to join the EU single market. It's swapping a hundred quid for twenty quid.

And then finally, there's the EU membership terms, terms that the SNP rejected in the white paper, detailing in black and white that they're no less euro-skeptic than the rest of the UK.

Oh, and there's the fact that there's no fast EU entry either, meaning that Scotland will spend a decade in the trade wilderness (as much as a wilderness as brexit will be, at least) 

And finally ... with the EU now on a firm 'by 2025' path to tax (and more) union (go google it), Scotland doesn't get to choose it's own path if indy, it has to do what Brussells says. It'll be joining a union with few different restrictions to westminster but with Scotland's voice and influence reduced by a factor or 10.

It's clear now, the people of Scotland want to wait and see what brexit brings. While brexit might bring shit, it'll still be less shit onto scotland than Indy would cause, and the brexit process will highlight that too.

And what do socially conservative people do when the shit hits the fan? They pull up the drawbridge, they don't open themselves to more shit.

 

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My view remains that having the next Indy ref after the tories win the next general election would be best. By which time we will be seeing the true effects of brexit.

Other views are available of course :-)

Your view, then, remains one of Sturgeon having boxed herself into a corner that she can't get herself out of. By the next election it'll already be game over for Sturgeon as far as indy is concerned.

She either has to go for it by March 2019, or she's a laughing stock.

Edited January 7, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

PS: and missed from the above is the possibility of May using Sturgeon/SNP as the fall guy.

May will do what May will do - and hopefully you'll already know from my posts in other threads that I don't see staying in the EU as impossible for one of the things she might do.

One of the things which May might do is to stay in the single market, just as Sturgeon wants. If it happens tho, it won't happen because Sturgeon wants it, but because May wants it.

And if May does want that, she'll need to deflect any shit about it from being thrown at her - and so May will say she's done it to keep Scotland happy.

This is the miracle which the tories might give Sturgeon to save Sturgeon's career. Sounds good, eh?

But there's be a punch in the face with it if it happens. If Scotland's getting the blame, Scotland is also going to get consequences - and the consequences will be a new financial settlement for the UK, and the end of Barnett.

I wouldn't expect the end of Barnett to see Scotland get average-UK fuinding. It will continue to receive a premium, but it'll be a much reduced premium. The amount might fall from its current £9bn to something like £4bn-£5Bn.

How that then plays out is Scotland gets to feel about half of the financial pain that indy would cause it. That'll be more than enough for people to realise they don't want indy.

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

PS: and missed from the above is the possibility of May using Sturgeon/SNP as the fall guy.

May will do what May will do - and hopefully you'll already know from my posts in other threads that I don't see staying in the EU as impossible for one of the things she might do.

One of the things which May might do is to stay in the single market, just as Sturgeon wants. If it happens tho, it won't happen because Sturgeon wants it, but because May wants it.

And if May does want that, she'll need to deflect any shit about it from being thrown at her - and so May will say she's done it to keep Scotland happy.

This is the miracle which the tories might give Sturgeon to save Sturgeon's career. Sounds good, eh?

But there's be a punch in the face with it if it happens. If Scotland's getting the blame, Scotland is also going to get consequences - and the consequences will be a new financial settlement for the UK, and the end of Barnett.

I wouldn't expect the end of Barnett to see Scotland get average-UK fuinding. It will continue to receive a premium, but it'll be a much reduced premium. The amount might fall from its current £9bn to something like £4bn-£5Bn.

How that then plays out is Scotland gets to feel about half of the financial pain that indy would cause it. That'll be more than enough for people to realise they don't want indy.

some spectacular guesswork going on here, Neil. I suppose your scenario is possible but I think even you would admit other scenarios are at least as likely - some of which would be much more favourable for Sturgeon.

As for your "backed into a corner" nonsense, there is a short leader comment in the Scotsman which examines the different interpretations of Sturgeon's position a bit more rationally than you.

Sturgeon heaps pressure on May

  http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/leader-comment-sturgeon-heaps-pressure-on-may-1-4333822

 

ON a side note, I'm loving how you constantly berate the SNP for not having plans for currency or the economy when there is not even a date planned for a second referendum whilst giving May a free pass for having no plans for Brexit which apparently starts in about 80 days or so.

For me, Comfy hit the nail on the head with his long game post and as always he did it in a civilised and decent way  without feeling the need to insult anyone's intelligence. 

 

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

some spectacular guesswork going on here, Neil. I suppose your scenario is possible but I think even you would admit other scenarios are at least as likely - some of which would be much more favourable for Sturgeon.

I don't think it's the most likely thing to happen, but staying in the single market is the most favourable thing which can happen as far as Sturgeon is concerned. It's better, even, than staying in the EU.

 

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

As for your "backed into a corner" nonsense, there is a short leader comment in the Scotsman which examines the different interpretations of Sturgeon's position a bit more rationally than you.

Sturgeon heaps pressure on May

  http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/leader-comment-sturgeon-heaps-pressure-on-may-1-4333822

That's only true if May was willing to bend for Scotland or May was scared of indyref2. Neither are true.

 

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

ON a side note, I'm loving how you constantly berate the SNP for not having plans for currency or the economy when there is not even a date planned for a second referendum whilst giving May a free pass for having no plans for Brexit which apparently starts in about 80 days or so.

I'm not giving May a free pass, but this is the indy thread, rememebr?

They're both as shit as each other about this. See my post from last night, where I pointed out they're both trying the same tactics for the same (internal political) reasons, while both know it's an ask of the impossible.

 

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

For me, Comfy hit the nail on the head with his long game post and as always he did it in a civilised and decent way  without feeling the need to insult anyone's intelligence. 

If she's playing a game beyond brexit, why has both she and Salmond said the game is being played up-to exit day and not beyond?

 

[Comfy Bean]

By March 2019 is for sure a possibility. Perhaps NS will call it for just before then. 

Perhaps the Tories will still have a firm grip on the UK and Labour will still be a shambles.

Perhaps we will be in an economic mess and out the single market etc.

Perhaps 2 years is a long time in politics.

Perhaps NS can get the 5ish% swing she needs during the next 2 years. They certainly managed way more than 5% in the 2 years before the last vote. Way, way more.

Support for Indy has remained pretty solid despite the predictions of it falling away. Huge support, around 70% in the 16-40 age bracket.

Perhaps it's a bit early to be writing NS off. I think it is.

[Comfy Bean]

I very much doubt that May will ever announce that we're staying in the single market to keep Scotland happy.

I'll be living in my cave long before May ever utters those words I reckon.

The Tories don't give a shit about what Scotland thinks. Just ask the last deputy PM :-)

[eFestivals]

16 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Perhaps NS can get the 5ish% swing she needs during the next 2 years. They certainly managed way more than 5% in the 2 years before the last vote. Way, way more.

As I've said all along, perhaps she will ... but even Sturgeon doesn't think she will at the mo. It's clear from what she's saying.

As for growing the support, there's nothing new for anyone to consider, everyone already has their views on it, so there's almost no movement to happen. Those who voted against indy last time are the ones who can recognise its cost, a cost they didn't want to pay in 2014 and don't want to pay now. In fact, more people than ever are wising up to the cost.

Cos there's all the negative-certainties - currency, deficit, loss of UK single market, the EU controlling Scottish spending - and there's a whole bunch of negative-unknowns too, such as the costs of establishing a currency (£30Bn is a fair [tho low-side] estimate*), how much capital flight they'll be, and how much business with rUK will be lost (on top of the extra costs of that business).

*In case you don't know, the UK has reserves of around £120Bn, so Scotland's share will be around £10Bn. Denmark [a similar sized economy & population to Scotland] has reserves of 50Bn euros, and it's unlikely a new country & currency could successfully/stabily operate with much less. So that's an extra £30Bn+ iScotland has to magic up from somewhere.

Sturgeon is on Marr this morning, and from a piece I've seen trailered she says "I'm not bluffing". If I were Teresa May I'd start a bill thru Westminster now setting a date for it - soon - and send it north with a note saying "you're not bluffing, get on with it then". Cos the sooner the charade is over the sooner Scotland can have a govt that actually governs rather than does fuck all (not even what it says it will).

16 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Huge support, around 70% in the 16-40 age bracket.

Really? Wanna show me the polling for that?

You love to mention those 32 areas which all voted to remain in the EU ref. I'll point out just 4 of them voted for indy.

There might be that level of support at an aspirational level - as in what people would like to happen in a perfect world - but in the real world 70% of Scots in that age range aren't so fucking stupid as to want to impoverish themselves and their families.

[eFestivals]

16 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

The UK don't give a shit about what Scotland thinks. Just ask the last deputy PM :-)

Corrrected for you.

Because, of course, there is no Scotland in the UK, there are only the people of the UK, where all have to be considered.

Your little fascist dream of 8% ruling over everyone is not on the cards, never has been  and never will be. If you want your fascist dream you have to create it yourself, where you won't accept Shetland telling you what what to do or even factor in its different opinions.

You know, you not give a shit just like a tory.

[eFestivals]

Just watching Marr.

He's got Sturgeon to clarify when a brexit-related indyref would happen - and (essentially) it means before March 2019.

I say 'essentially' because Sturgeon made clear it's a possibly-moveable thing because of the possible timings of events out of her hands (which isn't unreasonable), but she also explicitly gave the March 2019 date based on the presumption of article 50 being triggered in March this year.

The interview itself was a perfect example of grievance mining. There'll have to be an awful lot of that if she's going to win that indyref.

----

I read something earlier, of someone asking who might lead a 'better together' campaign next time round. The idea behind the question was that no one would want it, but if anyone did it would probably be the sort who's likely to increase support for indy rather than for the union. That's perhaps right, too.

But I reckon there won't be a campaign next time. I reckon it'll be a short piece of something like "look at that £9Bn. Go for it if you like" and then Scotland will be left to get on with it.  And personally, I reckon a 'campaign' of nothing is probably worth -5% to indy.

Edited January 8, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Corrrected for you.

Because, of course, there is no Scotland in the UK, there are only the people of the UK, where all have to be considered.

Your little fascist dream of 8% ruling over everyone is not on the cards, never has been  and never will be. If you want your fascist dream you have to create it yourself, where you won't accept Shetland telling you what what to do or even factor in its different opinions.

You know, you not give a shit just like a tory.

 Using fascism in your argument is always a sign of desperation.

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Just watching Marr.

He's got Sturgeon to clarify when a brexit-related indyref would happen - and (essentially) it means before March 2019.

Well sort of but  with plenty of caveats.

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I say 'essentially' because Sturgeon made clear it's a possibly-moveable thing because of the possible timings of events out of her hands (which isn't unreasonable), but she also explicitly gave the March 2019 date based on the presumption of article 50 being triggered in March this year.

Yeah but she pade it pretty clear that she has no idea whether that "presumption" is correct.

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

The interview itself was a perfect example of grievance mining. There'll have to be an awful lot of that if she's going to win that indyref.

You much have watched a different interview.

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

----

I read something earlier, of someone asking who might lead a 'better together' campaign next time round. The idea behind the question was that no one would want it, but if anyone did it would probably be the sort who's likely to increase support for indy rather than for the union. That's perhaps right, too.

But I reckon there won't be a campaign next time. I reckon it'll be a short piece of something like "look at that £9Bn. Go for it if you like" and then Scotland will be left to get on with it.  And personally, I reckon a 'campaign' of nothing is probably worth -5% to indy.

You really shouldn't start drinking so early in the day. There won't be a No campaign? That would be truly bizarre.

The point about who would lead it is valid. The obvious & the current standard bearer for the Anti Indy movement would be Ruth Davidson but the mere fact that she is a Tory makes her too toxic for a large part of the electorate. Its hard to see anyone in the Scottish Labour Party with the stature required unless they resurrect The Gordon for the umpteenth time and you wonder whether he has the energy or the motivation for a full campaign. There is also the issue of "boots on the ground" most of the groundwork last time round was done by Labour supporters and there aren't nearly as many of them as there used to be (& about 20% or so favour independence anyway)  Of course the Better Together campaign last time round was so dismal that it would be hard to imagine them being as bad again so that may mean their lack of leadership & grassroots activists aren't quite as big a handicap as it would otherwise appear. 

[Comfy Bean]

Just watched NS on Marr.

No idea what you were watching Neil. It's rather odd how worked up you get listening to Nicola.

Noticeable that Marr actually lets folk answer his questions unlike Andrew Neil who just seems to interrupt and like the sound of his own voice.

For those that totally disagree with Sturgeon, it must at least be interesting to hear someone actually answer questions. Even if you disagree completely with her opinions on the type of country she wants Scotland to be.

Obviously if you're a union at all costs type she's going to send you into a rage - see Neil's post :-)

Her only grievance seems to be with the direction an increasingly right wing government are taking us in. Against the way Scotland voted of course.

[eFestivals]

20 hours ago, LJS said:

 Using fascism in your argument is always a sign of desperation.

says the man who demands Scotland is 'an equal partner' with rUK. :lol:

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, LJS said:

Yeah but she pade it pretty clear that she has no idea whether that "presumption" is correct.

Yep, but she also made 100% clear that if the presumption is correct the indyref is before March 2019.

The date is important, cos if that date isn't met (but the caveats are) we'll all know she's bottled it. The date is important, cos if that date is met we'll all know she's lost it.

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, LJS said:

You much have watched a different interview.

Really?

Then you'll have to show me where Sturgeon's role in foreign policy is.

Sturgeon's angle here is as sane as my local councillor demanding a role and a specific outcome in brexiting the EU, and threatening to take Easton independent if he's ignored.

Yes, I know she put some irrelevant bollocks that's nothing of her legal competences in the SNP manifesto, but my local councillor might have done the same. And claiming a mandate from it is as relevant as the non-abolition of Scotland's council tax after having an electoral mandate to abolish it.

Watch that interview back and count up the number of false claims. Truly the words of the duplicitous.

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, LJS said:

You really shouldn't start drinking so early in the day. There won't be a No campaign? That would be truly bizarre.

Oh, there'll be a 'no' campaign, but I reckon nothing like previously. I reckon It'll be an almost exclusively Scottish affair.

 

17 hours ago, LJS said:

The point about who would lead it is valid. The obvious & the current standard bearer for the Anti Indy movement would be Ruth Davidson but the mere fact that she is a Tory makes her too toxic for a large part of the electorate. Its hard to see anyone in the Scottish Labour Party with the stature required unless they resurrect The Gordon for the umpteenth time and you wonder whether he has the energy or the motivation for a full campaign. There is also the issue of "boots on the ground" most of the groundwork last time round was done by Labour supporters and there aren't nearly as many of them as there used to be (& about 20% or so favour independence anyway)  Of course the Better Together campaign last time round was so dismal that it would be hard to imagine them being as bad again so that may mean their lack of leadership & grassroots activists aren't quite as big a handicap as it would otherwise appear. 

And you seem to agree. :)

There doesn't need to be an information campaign. Everyone knows the information (tho plenty invent their own conclusions not supported by any evidence), and everyone has already made up their minds.

If Scotland wants to punch itself in the face, scotland is welcome to. It's Scotland that pays the heavy price.

If brexit for the UK is moronic and disastrous to split just a little bit of economic inter-connectivity, then there's the whole thing on steroids for splitting from the UK.... and at least with the UK leaving the EU the trade split is against the EU (tho only just), while the trade split for Scotland is over four times against those unaffordable indy plans.

Plus of course all of the things which ensure Scotland can't join the EU for many years anyway. 

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Just watched NS on Marr.

No idea what you were watching Neil. It's rather odd how worked up you get listening to Nicola.

You didn't see her explicitly state that if a50 is triggered in March the indyref is before March 2019? :blink: :wacko: :lol:

You didn't see her claiming a role for herself that she has no more or less than a parish councillor?

I have a bridge I can sell you. Wanna buy?

 

7 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Noticeable that Marr actually lets folk answer his questions unlike Andrew Neil who just seems to interrupt and like the sound of his own voice.

For those that totally disagree with Sturgeon, it must at least be interesting to hear someone actually answer questions. Even if you disagree completely with her opinions on the type of country she wants Scotland to be.

Obviously if you're a union at all costs type she's going to send you into a rage - see Neil's post :-)

 

The only 'rage' here is at lies and duplicitousness - tho mostly it's just laughter at how you want to shit on your family with lies.

 

 

7 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Her only grievance seems to be with the direction an increasingly right wing government are taking us in. Against the way Scotland voted of course.

Scotland voted against austerity. Scotland has the powers for no austerity. Scotland prefers austerity to higher taxes.

What have you missed comfy? Scotland voted for austerity. It was the SNP's May 2016 manifesto promise, at least as much as the promise of an indyref.

 

[LJS]

34 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

says the man who demands Scotland is 'an equal partner' with rUK.

I don't demand anything. & I would prefer us to be no partner at all with the UK.

[LJS]

27 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Really?

Then you'll have to show me where Sturgeon's role in foreign policy is.

Sturgeon's angle here is as sane as my local councillor demanding a role and a specific outcome in brexiting the EU, and threatening to take Easton independent if he's ignored.

Yes, I know she put some irrelevant bollocks that's nothing of her legal competences in the SNP manifesto, but my local councillor might have done the same. And claiming a mandate from it is as relevant as the non-abolition of Scotland's council tax after having an electoral mandate to abolish it.

Watch that interview back and count up the number of false claims. Truly the words of the duplicitous.

None. & you used to accept she had a mandate. 

[LJS]

16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You didn't see her explicitly state that if a50 is triggered in March the indyref is before March 2019?

You didn't see her claiming a role for herself that she has no more or less than a parish councillor?

I have a bridge I can sell you. Wanna buy?

 

 

The only 'rage' here is at lies and duplicitousness - tho mostly it's just laughter at how you want to shit on your family with lies.

 

 

Scotland voted against austerity. Scotland has the powers for no austerity. Scotland prefers austerity to higher taxes.

What have you missed comfy? Scotland voted for austerity. It was the SNP's May 2016 manifesto promise, at least as much as the promise of an indyref.

 

Austerity usual means a reduction in government spending but as your pal chokka has been at great pains lately to prove Scottish government spending is not decreasing. So no austerity.

[eFestivals]

28 minutes ago, LJS said:

None. & you used to accept she had a mandate. 

I accept it's in the manifesto, but is that what caused peeps to give the SNP their vote? Not in many cases I suspect. Meanwhile, that manifesto thing is for something Sturgeon has no legal role in, which isn't an irrelevance.

I'm very happy for you to pursue that mandate all the same. Yet she seems strangely shy to do that - even changing one set of words into another set of words to avoid it - I wonder why?

If that mandate REALLY applies, the ref would have already been called. What's said in that manifesto - voting out of the EU - has already happened.

 

Edited January 9, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, LJS said:

Austerity usual means a reduction in government spending but as your pal chokka has been at great pains lately to prove Scottish government spending is not decreasing. So no austerity.

perhaps tell the rest of Scotland?

Don't forget to also tell Sturgeon, who just yesterday was saying those nasty tories have been evil to Scotland when it turns out that the shit of 'austerity' Scotland is only down to the SNP, in fact the person who says it's all someone else's fault. 

Why's there no special Scottish taxes? Cos Scotland is as tory-in-action as anywhere else on this island.

[eFestivals]

I've just seen that Bella Caledonia is to close - or at least, it might well do. I can't actually get on it at the mo, so perhaps it's currently overloaded by people giving it money to keep it open.

I personally know just how tough it is for websites right now, so nothing of this post is taking the piss over it maybe closing, just to make that clear.

And i think it would be a dreadful shame if it did close, for at least all the while that the w*nker in Bath is still leading his unquestioning idiot army of brain-deads.

And I think that's probably got a bit of relevance towards Bella, too. I've never ever seen anything on WoS that's been even mildly disparaging towards the 'official' (but the idiot version) of indy according to the SNP and associated snippers, while BC was prepared to question or reject that mindless line.

Sort yerself out Scotland. You'll be really REALLY fucked if it's WoS that takes you over the line.

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I've just seen that Bella Caledonia is to close - or at least, it might well do. I can't actually get on it at the mo, so perhaps it's currently overloaded by people giving it money to keep it open.

I personally know just how tough it is for websites right now, so nothing of this post is taking the piss over it maybe closing, just to make that clear.

And i think it would be a dreadful shame if it did close, for at least all the while that the w*nker in Bath is still leading his unquestioning idiot army of brain-deads.

And I think that's probably got a bit of relevance towards Bella, too. I've never ever seen anything on WoS that's been even mildly disparaging towards the 'official' (but the idiot version) of indy according to the SNP and associated snippers, while BC was prepared to question or reject that mindless line.

Sort yerself out Scotland. You'll be really REALLY fucked if it's WoS that takes you over the line.

for once I agree with you (about Bella, not Wings) 

It is one of the very few Indy things I have contributed money to. It can be a bit artsy & pretentious at times but as you point out, it isn't scared to confront orthodoxies of all sides.

It looks like there is a rescue attempt in progress. Unfortunately, the Bishop of Bath doesn't get on with Bella because one word from him would pretty much guarantee the success of its fundraising. 

[Comfy Bean]

On 1/8/2017 at 8:18 AM, eFestivals said:

If I were Teresa May I'd start a bill thru Westminster now setting a date for it - soon - and send it north with a note saying "you're not bluffing, get on with it then". Cos the sooner the charade is over the sooner Scotland can have a govt that actually governs rather than does fuck all (not even what it says it will).

Turns out the charade was only in your head . No need to send your " note " North at the moment. NS has other business to be getting on with for now.

This from earlier today.... the Tories will be back to an empty campaign drawing board for the local elections !

Ms Sturgeon said: "There is not going to be an independence referendum in 2017, I don't think there is anybody who thinks that is the case."