The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Rubbish. I`ll not bother evidencing her views dating back 30 years ( again ). You know this is not true but you have your tiresome narrative of this all being about hatred of the English to keep up.

the main argument about the nukes in Scotland is always about how they're too close to Glasgow and how "the English" would never allow something like that near their cites.

Which only proves how poor the knowledge in Scotland is, and how it's about a false feeling of being shat on.

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

The Conservatives denounced the Budget for lurching to the left and making Scotland the highest taxed part of the UK, while Labour argued that the tax changes were not radical enough to mitigate the cuts coming to public ­services.

During a fiery debate, the Conservative finance spokesman Murdo Fraser attacked Mr Mackay for working with the Greens to produce a “hard left”, “anti-growth” and “anti-business” agenda.

“What a pity, what a tragedy for Scotland that he [Mackay] chose to throw in his lot with the lentil-munching, sandal wearing watermelons on that side of the chamber,” Mr Fraser said.

once upon a time I knew some indy supporters who'd have gone with Labour's angle on this more than they would the SNP's angle.

I wonder what happened to those people? I guess they turned into wanna-be tories.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

You'll forgive me for not pointing out yet again all the flaws in you tartan Tories robbing the poor nonsense.

the gap grows, and the SNP do nothing about it despite having the powers to.

They even claim they've got less money to spend when they really have more, and claim the cuts they're implementing onto the poorest are because they have less money when they don't.

These are the truth.

You pretend it's not.

[LJS]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

the main argument about the nukes in Scotland is always about how they're too close to Glasgow and how "the English" would never allow something like that near their cites.

Which only proves how poor the knowledge in Scotland is, and how it's about a false feeling of being shat on.

Not for me it ain't. I've always been opposed to all nukes on UK soil (or in the water on UK subs 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

Not for me it ain't. I've always been opposed to all nukes on UK soil (or in the water on UK subs 

That's lovely, but how's your want of NATO's other nukes...?

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Here's a nice wee story

 

[eFestivals]

35 minutes ago, LJS said:

Here's a nice wee story

 

does it say what currency you'll use, and how it will be financed and supported?

does it say how the £15Bn deficit will be managed?

Does it say what borders they'll be with rUK?

Just wondering if it actually addresses the bigger issues, or if it's just fluffy guff that pretends there's no massive problems that will make an iScotland turn out VERY differently to all the hopes.

 

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

does it say what currency you'll use, and how it will be financed and supported?

No

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

does it say how the £15Bn deficit will be managed?

No

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Does it say what borders they'll be with rUK?

NO

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Just wondering if it actually addresses the bigger issues, or if it's just fluffy guff that pretends there's no massive problems that will make an iScotland turn out VERY differently to all the hopes.

 

Just one man's point of view, Neil. As valid as your or mine, I would suggest.

[eFestivals]

34 minutes ago, LJS said:

No

No

NO

Just one man's point of view, Neil. As valid as your or mine, I would suggest.

Nope. Not all opinions are the same. Some are good opinions and some aren't.

You might as well say that voting for brexit has the same outcome as voting for leave, or that voting for indy has the same outcome as voting against indy

The UK only gets a positive benefit from brexit if there's a positive benefit from that choice. Exactly the same applies with indy.

And I remember someone who used to believe in indy because he thought it would help Scotland's poorest, but who today says he doesn't give a shit about helping them and votes to ensure there's no extra money to help them with.

Indy will be much much worse for Scotland's poor than even the do-fuck-all-for-them that that once-caring bloke now supports.

[Comfy Bean]

31 minutes ago, LJS said:

No

No

NO

Just one man's point of view, Neil. As valid as your or mine, I would suggest.

Clearly an English hating racist moron. Most probably greedy and selfish with possible facist tendencies.

Why else would he want to break away from the direction the Tories are taking us down. If he wants to shit on his children and live in a cave let him. Bloody European lover, stealing our jobs etc

Rule Brittania. We must protect the Union and our place on the world stage hand in hand with the Donald.

Back in your box jockman.

[LJS]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Nope. Not all opinions are the same. Some are good opinions and some aren't.

I didn't say "good." I said valid.

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You might as well say that voting for brexit has the same outcome as voting for leave, or that voting for indy has the same outcome as voting against indy

I didn't say all opinions have the same outcome. I said that one man's opinion is as valid as your or mine.

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The UK only gets a positive benefit from brexit if there's a positive benefit from that choice. Exactly the same applies with indy.

Your opinion is valid of course but so is mine and the gentleman in the video.

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And I remember someone who used to believe in indy because he thought it would help Scotland's poorest, but who today says he doesn't give a shit about helping them and votes to ensure there's no extra money to help them with.

And I know someone who persistently tells lies about this

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Indy will be much much worse for Scotland's poor than even the do-fuck-all-for-them that that once-caring bloke now supports.

I note your opinion which you are of course entitled to. 

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Why else would he want to break away from the direction the Tories are taking us down.

The tories might be taking Scotland to a shit place, but that doesn't get to mean that it couldn't be shitter than the tories might cause it to be.

The main reason why people like you say the tories are doing dreadful things is because they're cutting spending.

When Scotland - indy or as part of the UK - is spending £15Bn more than it's raising in revenues (and which is currently being covered by UK), what does that say about what needs to happen if indy?

Are you able to tell me?

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

I didn't say "good." I said valid.

valid as in a noise from his gob. 

It doesn't validate anything that comes from his gob. Validation is done against the facts.

 

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

I didn't say all opinions have the same outcome. I said that one man's opinion is as valid as your or mine.

An opinion is an opinion, and for the noise of expressing that opinion they're all equal.

That's where the similarity of opinions ends. Some opinions - those most-based on the facts - are the better ones.

 

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

Your opinion is valid of course but so is mine and the gentleman in the video.

Equally valid as a noise.

Not equally valid in consequences.

 

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

And I know someone who persistently tells lies about this

and i know someone who claims addition and subtraction work differently in a independent country.

I'd offer you bet that they don't, but given your lack of factual maths you'd claim you'd paid up when you hadn't.

 

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

I note your opinion which you are of course entitled to. 

I note you have no worthwhile opinion at all on currency, deficit and borders.

Is that because you embrace the facts or because they scare you?

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 and i know someone who claims addition and subtraction work differently in a independent country.

I'd offer you bet that they don't, but given your lack of factual maths you'd claim you'd paid up when you hadn't.

The last time we had the chat, you were unable to point out any arithmetical or mathematical error with my figures

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

I note you have no worthwhile opinion at all on currency, deficit and borders.

Is that because you embrace the facts or because they scare you?

I believe we have covered these in some depth in the past. 

By the wasy You Neighbour in Bath has commissioned some polling which he has published over the past couple of day, nothing wildly startling I'd suggest but you may want to take a look (if you haven't already)

 

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

The last time we had the chat, you were unable to point out any arithmetical or mathematical error with my figures

Oh good.

So please do tell me what cuts are being made to get the deficit down to 3%.

That'll require cuts that are bigger than all Scottish education. Will it be savage cuts to pensions, the NHS, or education? Or 20% cuts to all of them? Do tell, i've been asking you this for 4 years now.

 

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

I believe we have covered these in some depth in the past. 

No, you've refused in-depth, because you refuse the relevant facts.

 

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

By the wasy You Neighbour in Bath has commissioned some polling which he has published over the past couple of day, nothing wildly startling I'd suggest but you may want to take a look (if you haven't already)

He's been doing polling in Bath about Scotland?

Nope, can't find it, perhaps you can link?

[LJS]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Oh good.

So please do tell me what cuts are being made to get the deficit down to 3%.

I already have - without cuts

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

That'll require cuts that are bigger than all Scottish education. Will it be savage cuts to pensions, the NHS, or education? Or 20% cuts to all of them? Do tell, i've been asking you this for 4 years now.

I've already covered this. Do I need to wheel your mate's graphs out yet again?

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No, you've refused in-depth, because you refuse the relevant facts.

I disagree with you. That's allowed.

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

He's been doing polling in Bath about Scotland?

Nope, can't find it, perhaps you can link?

He's commissioned pollsters to do polling in Scotland.

Please note that I am only linking because you asked me to. You know very very well that I don't link to this site. 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/kicking-down-the-doors/

http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/

 He usually dribbles these things out over a few days so there may be more to come. I did hear tell of some unusual questions being asked about how much we love or hate the English or similar - I can imagine the Rev asking that sort of stuff. Of course if you are right and we all detest you guys, he is unlikely to publish the results so we may never know.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

I already have - without cuts

no, you've extrapolated one thing to make it something else.

No logic and no intelligence applied, just wacky fact-free hopes.

 

Quote

I've already covered this. Do I need to wheel your mate's graphs out yet again?

Those graphs that show a reduction due to tory cuts? Those graphs?

And where your prediction only comes true if the SNP cut like tories on steroids, by much more than the tories plan to cut by?

Or are you still pretending that the deficit reduction that's happening isn't driven by tory cuts? Cos if so, that means the tories are managing the scottish economy to your satisfaction.

 

Quote

I disagree with you. That's allowed.

You disagree with facts. It's allowed.

But only makes you stupid.

 

Quote

He's commissioned pollsters to do polling in Scotland.

Please note that I am only linking because you asked me to.

I asked you only because you said it could tell me something interesting towards your hopes of indie .... which it appears you're now running away from. :lol:

 

Quote

You know very very well that I don't link to this site. 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/kicking-down-the-doors/

http://wingsoverscotland.com/all-the-damn-vampires/

 He usually dribbles these things out over a few days so there may be more to come. I did hear tell of some unusual questions being asked about how much we love or hate the English or similar - I can imagine the Rev asking that sort of stuff. Of course if you are right and we all detest you guys, he is unlikely to publish the results so we may never know.

... and which says nothing useful at all towards indy.

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

no, you've extrapolated one thing to make it something else.

No logic and no intelligence applied, just wacky fact-free hopes.

 

Those graphs that show a reduction due to tory cuts? Those graphs?

And where your prediction only comes true if the SNP cut like tories on steroids, by much more than the tories plan to cut by?

Or are you still pretending that the deficit reduction that's happening isn't driven by tory cuts? Cos if so, that means the tories are managing the scottish economy to your satisfaction.

 

You disagree with facts. It's allowed.

But only makes you stupid.

I've spent countless hours supplying you with a case based entirely your favourite facts. You deny it. I have absolutely no intention of repeating that futile process. As the general news thread is currently demonstrating, you will not countenance views other than your own even when you have personally made them up.

Knowing you, you will interpret this as a great victory for you superior intellect.

Do enjoy your victory.

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

I asked you only because you said it could tell me something interesting towards your hopes of indie .... which it appears you're now running away from.

Did I?

I said

"By the way your Neighbour in Bath has commissioned some polling which he has published over the past couple of day, nothing wildly startling I'd suggest but you may want to take a look (if you haven't already) "

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

... and which says nothing useful at all towards indy.

Which is why I didn't claim it did. I know you struggle with the notion but I do sometimes post stuff just for info and not to make any particular point. I'm kind that way  

 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

I've spent countless hours supplying you with a case based entirely your favourite facts. You deny it. I have absolutely no intention of repeating that futile process. As the general news thread is currently demonstrating, you will not countenance views other than your own even when you have personally made them up.

 

You've gone from hating tory cuts to saying how they're they're Scotland's salvation.

Yep, I know.

While I've pointed out the pain they cause that you used to complain about.

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

The tories might be taking Scotland to a shit place, but that doesn't get to mean that it couldn't be shitter than the tories might cause it to be.

The main reason why people like you say the tories are doing dreadful things is because they're cutting spending.

When Scotland - indy or as part of the UK - is spending £15Bn more than it's raising in revenues (and which is currently being covered by UK), what does that say about what needs to happen if indy?

Are you able to tell me?

I may have mentioned it before but I believe that with independence Scotland can chose a different path and work to different priorities under a Labour or Snp government. I am almost certain that a move away from Tory spending priorities will not see my kids starve or us moving into a cave.

I fully respect the rights of more than half of you folks voting Tory or ukip these days and wish you well with that. Like with the Eu we have to go with your decisions.

 I think Scotland should be ran from Holyrood by a government who can be removed by people living in Scotland. Like what generally happens in England and which will always happen in England when we leave.

I have already accepted that you think that I am telling lies and that you have concluded that I believe Scotland could / should be Indy due to my hatred of England.

I also understand that you don't regard Scotland as a Country.

Lets agree to disagree :-)

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I may have mentioned it before but I believe that with independence Scotland can chose a different path and work to different priorities

It can. It means exactly that.

But those "different priorities" are different choices - spending money on one thing and not another.

And when you stop spending money (or as much money) on something, doing that has a phrase to describe it. It's called "spending cuts".

Do remember to bear in mind that there's currently 20% more spent than is raised - which means a 20% cut to everything, or much bigger cuts to particular things (to allow other things to remain uncut).

For example, you could choose to close all Scottish schools, colleges and universities, and that would cut most of the excess spending - tho not all of it. Other things would still need to be cut too.

and that's because the scale of cuts needed are bigger than Greece has needed. And how is Greece doing?

So can you tell me what would be cut?

Edited February 15, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It can. It means exactly that.

But those "different priorities" are different choices - spending money on one thing and not another.

And when you stop spending money (or as much money) on something, doing that has a phrase to describe it. It's called "spending cuts".

Do remember to bear in mind that there's currently 20% more spent than is raised - which means a 20% cut to everything, or much bigger cuts to particular things (to allow other things to remain uncut).

For example, you could choose to close all Scottish schools, colleges and universities, and that would cut most of the excess spending - tho not all of it. Other things would still need to be cut too.

and that's because the scale of cuts needed are bigger than Greece has needed. And how is Greece doing?

So can you tell me what would be cut?

yeah that's how you deal with deficits. You take the size of the deficit and just lop it off public spending don't you? Even George Osborne at his  most demented didn't try making that claim.

Neil, you are Dale Winton &  your economic theory is based on Supermarket Sweep.

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

yeah that's how you deal with deficits. You take the size of the deficit and just lop it off public spending don't you? Even George Osborne at his  most demented didn't try making that claim.

Neil, you are Dale Winton &  your economic theory is based on Supermarket Sweep.

I could point out that that's the exact method of the world's only big lender with 100% repayment rate - the IMF.

Likewise, i could point out that spending a quid and getting only 40p back takes things further away from deficit resolution, and not closer to it.

I could also mention, again, the words of the left-winger's favourite economist about the economists 'dirty little secret' of no one knowing how to sustainably over-inflate an economy.

I could ask just here, too, why you think an already mature economy that's already one of the most successful in the world has, within just a few years, the capacity to grow by 20% more than the economy just next door - that's extra growth, beyond what rUK does - that has many 'natural' economic efficiencies that Scotland does not and cannot have (geography, population density, nearness to markets, etc).

I could also point at Greece as a real-world demonstration that trying to over-inflate the 'natural' level of an economy doesn't work to what you wrongly and ignorantly claim as economic theory.

And I could also ask who you might think would be the lender to a state with no credit history and which is committed to NOT reducing its deficit as swiftly as is possible (think Ireland, or Portugal, etc - neither of which could find commercial lenders so had to beg, and then had to cut hard and deep, far worse than any tory).

And I could ask you to point me at the list of things which will be done differently - something which no fucker has a clue about, including the SNP, and you.

So all in all, you're talking twaddle. The only choice is cuts, fucking massive cuts.

[LJS]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I could point out that that's the exact method of the world's only big lender with 100% repayment rate - the IMF.

Likewise, i could point out that spending a quid and getting only 40p back takes things further away from deficit resolution, and not closer to it.

I could also mention, again, the words of the left-winger's favourite economist about the economists 'dirty little secret' of no one knowing how to sustainably over-inflate an economy.

I could ask just here, too, why you think an already mature economy that's already one of the most successful in the world has, within just a few years, the capacity to grow by 20% more than the economy just next door - that's extra growth, beyond what rUK does - that has many 'natural' economic efficiencies that Scotland does not and cannot have (geography, population density, nearness to markets, etc).

I could also point at Greece as a real-world demonstration that trying to over-inflate the 'natural' level of an economy doesn't work to what you wrongly and ignorantly claim as economic theory.

And I could also ask who you might think would be the lender to a state with no credit history and which is committed to NOT reducing its deficit as swiftly as is possible (think Ireland, or Portugal, etc - neither of which could find commercial lenders so had to beg, and then had to cut hard and deep, far worse than any tory).

You could point to all of those things but since you have pointed to them all before & we have discussed them all before & we have disagreed and since by your rules "anyone who disagrees with Neil is wrong, a liar and a moron( or a twat)" I don't really feel inclined to waste my time. Thanks though.

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And I could ask you to point me at the list of things which will be done differently - something which no fucker has a clue about, including the SNP, and you.

That kind of depends on who we elect to govern us doesn't it? I'm cautiously optimistic we will have better governments than our friends behind the Tartan Curtain.

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So all in all, you're talking twaddle. The only choice is cuts, fucking massive cuts.

Of course Neil, of course.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

You could point to all of those things but since you have pointed to them all before & we have discussed them all before & we have disagreed and since by your rules "anyone who disagrees with Neil is wrong, a liar and a moron( or a twat)" I don't really feel inclined to waste my time. Thanks though.

PMSL

The facts don't agree with you, so you refuse to address the facts.

And this is what you and every other snipper think will cause people to change their minds and support indy. It ain't gonna work. 

At least the racist brexiters had a reason for voting stupid, you're not even that smart. 

 

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

That kind of depends on who we elect to govern us doesn't it? I'm cautiously optimistic we will have better governments than our friends behind the Tartan Curtain.

Whoever you elect to govern you cannot magic money from thin air.

And for someone who normally bangs on about how politicians are liars and frauds, you're suddenly very trusting of the coming of these mythical future perfect politicians, even tho not one of the current lot can give you hint of how they might deliver perfection in the future.

Might they be perfection personified just because they're Scottish? And that would explain why they don't yet exist, because there's not yet a sovereign Scotland? Will they rise out of Scotland's hallowed ground on indy day, or something?

 

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

Of course Neil, of course.

Why did Ireland make massive cuts in 2009(ish), LJS? 

Is it because they're secret tories?

Or might it be for other reasons, reasons that would apply to an iScotland no less than they did Ireland?