The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

(me calling her a fascist in my exchanges with LJS about that was an insult of his intelligence and not a labelling of her).

 

You have brightened up my Saturday with this hilarious claim.

Edited February 18, 2017 by LJS

[LJS]

2 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Why all this free pass nonsense.

You think she will bottle it I think she'll call it in 2018.

Neither of us actually know Neil. Time will tell and one of us will be wrong and not for the first time.

Appreciate your view on the turnout. What you thinking ljs, or anyone else ?

Seems we are in agreement so far that it will be down. Neil may well be right that this could favour the unionists. So much uncertainty as it is could also be a problem for yes. 

Its hard to imagine the turnout will be as high next time but then, you never know. A lower turnout would likely favour the No's as the old & the rich are much more conscientious voters than the poor & the young. There were considerable efforts particularly by the Radical Independence Campaign to get traditional non voters on to the electoral register and out to the polling stations. They had great success with the first part, less so with the second. If the can crack that next time around, Yes is surely in with a chance. It is a huge IF though. I think free Buckfast at the polling stations is the answer.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

that would require you to fully recognise the facts, which you won't.

Will it be all of education (and more) that gets cut, or all of the Scottish NHS (and more)?

Christ Neil, its the return of Tesconomics. 

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Or a 20% of everything?

or 100% of Neil repeating the same old bollocks again.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

In the words of Big Brother: you decide.

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

And when you have, do remember to tell the Scottish people what you'd like them to suffer when they don't have to.

Yeah Comfy get out your cave & tell the Scottish people which of their limbs you will cut off because of your moronic Fascist selfishness

[LJS]

& just to annoy Neil, another thoughtful English resident of Scotland talking about why she has changed from No to Yes. Blood & Soil my arse

 

[Comfy Bean]

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

As NATO is in the news today, a question for comfy and ljs. Would you want an independent Scotland to be part of NATO? If so would you want them to join the 4 who meet the 2% spending commitment or the 20 odd who don't?

Just to reply to this pt. Ljs has covered it I see and I'm also not fussed either way. 

I certainly didn't want us to renew Trident and don't remember NATO being a biggie for either side of the Indy debate. 

I think Scotland would slip away from any world police type roll with Indy. We are kind of roped into the wave ruling stuff at the moment.

As an aside, I came up close to a Trident sub yesterday. A sinister looking beast. We were coming back from a couple of days in Arran and the ferry was way closer to it then i thought would have been allowed. The ferry man was telling my weans that they see it all the time in that stretch of water. 

Hopefully our enemies don't scan Efest for intel :-)

[eFestivals]

3 hours ago, LJS said:

"Civic or territorial nationalists define the nation as an association of people with equal and shared political rights, and an allegiance to similar political procedures. The nation is a political entity, inclusive and liberal. Anyone can, so to speak, join through becoming a citizen.

Ethnic nationalists define the nation in terms of a shared heritage, which usually includes a common language, faith, and ancestry. They base membership on descent or heredity. It is clearly a more restrictive form of nationalism."

If you think Scottish Nationalism  fits the second definition better than the first, there is truly no point in carrying on this debate because you don't understand modern Scotland.

Go on, tell me how Sturgeon saying "Scotland is a country" fits the first one, and tell me how it doesn't fit the 2nd one.

They are precisely what I've been getting at.

Thank you for proving yourself wrong about this.

 

[eFestivals]

3 hours ago, LJS said:

 

Just because someone believes it will be difficult does not mean they have to accept your view of what that "fucking hard" looks like.

I've used impeccable maths (which you have been unable to fault) to demonstrate otherwise. You are the one who is subverting mathematics.

the maths is right, it's just the cause that you've got horrendously wrong.

Tory cuts!

That you now welcome.

Edited February 18, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

49 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

don't remember NATO being a biggie for either side of the Indy debate. 

it was a big enough factor for the SNP to suddenly switch their position to being pro-NATO.

Did that pass you by?

 

[eFestivals]

50 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I think Scotland would slip away from any world police type roll with Indy. We are kind of roped into the wave ruling stuff at the moment.

As an aside, I came up close to a Trident sub yesterday. A sinister looking beast. We were coming back from a couple of days in Arran and the ferry was way closer to it then i thought would have been allowed. The ferry man was telling my weans that they see it all the time in that stretch of water. 

Hopefully our enemies don't scan Efest for intel :-)

I think you're right about Scotland becoming insular and shirking away from shared international obligations, as a consequence of both the attitudes of indy and what finances will force onto an iScotland.

But even if all of the military spending were cut (and it wouldn't be), that still only saves £3Bn. There's still loads more to be found.

[Comfy Bean]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

it was a big enough factor for the SNP to suddenly switch their position to being pro-NATO.

Did that pass you by?

 

Perhaps millions based their vote on the NATO question.

Perhaps not a single vote hung on this. 

Im sticking with what I said about it not being a biggie for anyone on either side.

Was it a biggie under daily mail articles ? I'm happy to stand corrected.

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Perhaps millions based their vote on the NATO question.

Perhaps not a single vote hung on this. 

Im sticking with what I said about it not being a biggie for anyone on either side.

Was it a biggie under daily mail articles ? I'm happy to stand corrected.

we'll never know how much of a biggie it might be unless they switch it back again to anti.

I just pointed out the true fact that the SNP switched their position because they felt indy without NATO was an unviable proposition for the people of Scotland. It was only about a decade ago, basically in preparation for making that big indy proposition.

I presume that was based on polling, tho i don't know.

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Im sticking with what I said about it not being a biggie for anyone on either side.

that I disagree with.

Something like that wouldn't (necessarily) be a biggie for me, but for some people that 'strong military' thing is an absolute requirement of any govt they might support. 

I suspect the vast majority of those types are on the no side already, but there's probably a noticeable chunk of yes-ers that would be lost if indy was also rejecting NATO.

[LJS]

29 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Go on, tell me how Sturgeon saying "Scotland is a country" fits the first one, and tell me how it doesn't fit the 2nd one.

They are precisely what I've been getting at.

Thank you for proving yourself wrong about this.

 

Because when Sturgeon says "Scotland is a country" she is saying it is "an association of people with equal and shared political rights, and an allegiance to similar political procedures. The nation is a political entity, inclusive and liberal."

Thank you.

27 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

the maths is right, it's just the cause that you've got horrendously wrong.

Tory cuts!

That you now welcome.

Ah these Tory cuts that you took great pleasure in pointing out has not reduced Scotland's revenue. Some cuts. Some maths.

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I think you're right about Scotland becoming insular and shirking away from shared international obligations, as a consequence of both the attitudes of indy and what finances will force onto an iScotland.

But even if all of the military spending were cut (and it wouldn't be), that still only saves £3Bn. There's still loads more to be found.

What a spectacular misinterpretation of what Comfy said. i bet you though t you were being dead clever.

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

we'll never know how much of a biggie it might be unless they switch it back again to anti.

I just pointed out the true fact that the SNP switched their position because they felt indy without NATO was an unviable proposition for the people of Scotland. It was only about a decade ago, basically in preparation for making that big indy proposition.

I presume that was based on polling, tho i don't know.

The Yes campaign last time round was largely about trying to reassure people that not much would change  - same currency , same Queen, still in the EU, still in NATO - in other words - nothing to worry about, it's no big deal. Whether that was smart or not, we will never know. I would hope the YES campaign will be more radical next time around.

You know the sort of thing... no hospitals, caves for all guaranteed membership of Netflix for all & free buckfast on the NHS (stolen from the poor of course)

[LJS]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

that I disagree with.

Something like that wouldn't (necessarily) be a biggie for me, but for some people that 'strong military' thing is an absolute requirement of any govt they might support. 

I suspect the vast majority of those types are on the no side already, but there's probably a noticeable chunk of yes-ers that would be lost if indy was also rejecting NATO.

Who knows? Personally I think your first bit about the majority of folk that would give a shit are voting no anyway is about right

We'll never know..

For me I'm happy being in the club so long as we don't have to obey the rules

 

 

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

Because when Sturgeon says "Scotland is a country" she is saying it is "an association of people with equal and shared political rights, and an allegiance to similar political procedures. The nation is a political entity, inclusive and liberal."

Thank you.

No.

When she says "Scotland is a country" she's claiming a greater right than others to nationhood. She's used in that exact way when it's been suggested to her that London or Yorkshire might also be independent.

She is making that claim from ancient history, and not anything that might be inclusive and modern.

 

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

Ah these Tory cuts that you took great pleasure in pointing out has not reduced Scotland's revenue. Some cuts. Some maths.

have not reduced the SG's spending, despite cuts.

The right words are important for the truth.

 

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

What a spectacular misinterpretation of what Comfy said. i bet you though t you were being dead clever.

But that's exactly what it is. Ireland is thought less important than it might otherwise be on the world stage precisely because it has an insular attitude towards defense much as comfy was suggesting for Scotland.

 

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

The Yes campaign last time round was largely about trying to reassure people that not much would change  - same currency , same Queen, still in the EU, still in NATO - in other words - nothing to worry about, it's no big deal. Whether that was smart or not, we will never know. I would hope the YES campaign will be more radical next time around.

People's concern is change, because not all change is good.

So I doubt radical would have the effect you hope.

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

Who knows? Personally I think your first bit about the majority of folk that would give a shit are voting no anyway is about right

We'll never know..

For me I'm happy being in the club so long as we don't have to obey the rules

well, we might know if comfy's suggestion is pursued by indy2.

As we've already discussed, it's getting tougher to avoid playing to nato's rules.

 

[LJS]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No.

When she says "Scotland is a country" she's claiming a greater right than others to nationhood. She's used in that exact way when it's been suggested to her that London or Yorkshire might also be independent.

She is making that claim from ancient history, and not anything that might be inclusive and modern.

 

Look mate, we are clearly never going to agree on this so I suggest we both stop wasting our time on it. 

And every time you bring up this nonsense, I shall respond with this.

[eFestivals]

18 minutes ago, LJS said:

Look mate, I'm never going to accept even my own evidence. Nicola has a free pass for ever and for everything

And every time you bring up this nonsense, I will be too busy blowing her kisses.

 

corrected for you.

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I think you're right about Scotland becoming insular and shirking away from shared international obligations, as a consequence of both the attitudes of indy and what finances will force onto an iScotland.

Lol. As Im pretty hopeful you already know, that is not what I think at all. 

I think Scotland will continue to be an outward looking kinda place.

On the military front I was thinking about our lack of support for various wars and our lack of desire for the nukes.

I think you might be right about the world police types being unionists. There is a reason that Ruth is continuously pictured riding a tank while wrapped in the union flag. I'm glad we agree on something :-)

[LJS]

38 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I am a fanny.

Corrected for you.

[pink_triangle]

6 hours ago, LJS said:

Personally, I'm not fussed either way. Scotland is too wee to matter in terms of military contribution. We may have some strategic value because of where we sit but I know Neil doesn't agree with that. I am no expert on the subject and I wonder how important these things are in the modern world.

As for the 2% thing, I am absolutely opposed to Scotland wasting money on anything like the scale the UK currently does. (I also believe current UK defence spending is far too high)  If that means NATO doesn't let us in, I am quite relaxed about that.

Before asking the question I had to check the snp position and didn't realise that they had changed party line fairly recently. So from the sounds of it, this was more of a political decision than Salmond/sturgeon being particularly pro NATO?

[LJS]

39 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Before asking the question I had to check the snp position and didn't realise that they had changed party line fairly recently. So from the sounds of it, this was more of a political decision than Salmond/sturgeon being particularly pro NATO?

The honest answer is, I don't know why they changed, but as I've said before, I think it was part of a strategy to make Independence appear to change as little as possible. There is some logic in this position. Why get embroiled in a big NATO in or out argument when in reality the decision would be for future Scottish Governments. 

As I say, I don't think it makes much difference to either Scotland or NATO if we are in or out as long as we don't have to spend the obscene amounts of money on attack spending that NATO pretends we have to.

[Comfy Bean]

On 2/17/2017 at 5:43 PM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Tribal ?

Are you aware of any significant differences around the rules of who could vote in the Indy ref and the Eu ref ?

I have long ago accepted that you genuinely concluded that our Indy ref was all about hatred of the other / Englander or whoever. It's always about the hate.

Your opinion is alien to me but I also regard it as quite revealing about how you see things.

You seem upset that our exit will end the union. Few care about it as much as you appear to. Fair play to you, you fight hard for its survival. As I said earlier, what type of Country we live in seems way more important to me.

 

 

On 2/17/2017 at 6:30 PM, eFestivals said:

 

Not at all. It's about a misplaced sense of grievance.

 

 

On 3/18/2016 at 7:33 AM, eFestivals said:

 

I can only see "let's show England how much we hate them".

 

 

On 3/18/2016 at 0:42 PM, eFestivals said:

I can only conclude that it's hatred of anything English or grasping an empty flag but you're too ashamed to put it in writing, but you're welcome to provide some words to show you have a different reason.

 

On 3/20/2016 at 8:57 AM, eFestivals said:

O#m then left to draw my own conclusions, and as the best evidence says that none of the 'better Scoptland' that was the start of the dream is achiveable, hatred of 'the other' (bog standard nationalism, you are supporting a nationalist party, after all - and plenty of this can be seen from its supporters) and grasping an empty flag are the only things I can see that remain.

 

 

On 3/20/2016 at 9:31 AM, eFestivals said:

the reasons you've both previously given have evaporated in a puff of vacuous smoke.

I've said the only things things I can see remaining as beneficial are a hatred of the English or grasping an empty flag.

 

 

On 3/20/2016 at 9:49 AM, eFestivals said:

 

I've said that the only remain9ing reasons I can see is hatred of England and grasping an empty flag.

 

 

I suspect you entered this indy debate with your conclusions already drawn. I accept that you see it this way. Many other folks on both sides don`t feel the level of hate that you seem to and none I`ve met are reduced to posts like you`ve made above or the stuff around blood and soil. I think we both know why you regularly choose that form of words when talking about the SNP.

[LJS]

31 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I suspect you entered this indy debate with your conclusions already drawn. I accept that you see it this way. Many other folks on both sides don`t feel the level of hate that you seem to and none I`ve met are reduced to posts like you`ve made above or the stuff around blood and soil. I think we both know why you regularly choose that form of words when talking about the SNP.

and while I was looking for this I found you Comfy

Hey Comfy Geeza Poem.

 

Then I found Neil

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2017 by LJS

[LJS]

And before I depart for the night, here are the latest numbers

 

When 44% of no voters believe none or most of the Better together campaign's promises have been broken, there might just be a glimmer of hope that folk will exercise a bit more scepticism next time round when they say voting yes will take us out of the EU (Oops, they can't say that) well voting yes will destroy shipbuilding jobs (oops...in today's news looks like they're going) OK then voting  yes will mean we lose inland revenue jobs (Oh they've gone already have they?) 

And so on

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Lol. As Im pretty hopeful you already know, that is not what I think at all. 

I think Scotland will continue to be an outward looking kinda place.

expecting others to give your country its defence is not that, nor it will it be looked on as that by other countries.

After all, the thoughts around not being in nato isn't to do with some sort of principled objection to it (as Ireland has with its permanent official stance as neutral), but purely because you're looking to save money, and realise you can get nato's defence for free, and other mugs - yep, it would be calling other countries mugs - to foot the bill for you.

The SNP fucked themselves up on that one, when the glint of power was much more attractive than principles. Can't be undone, indyref1 was held with a nato commitment. The only way a future iScotland might claim neutrality as a principle now would be if indy were achieved by a party other than the SNP.

 

12 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

On the military front I was thinking about our lack of support for various wars and our lack of desire for the nukes.

Ah yeah, I forgot you're special snowflakes about Iraq, and all Scots and only Scots objected at the time. There's no revision of history going on here, oh no.

And even with regard to nukes, a very large part of the objection is not the nukes themselves, but the fact that they're 'here' and not 'there', or that 'they're sited 25m from a city. England wouldn't do that' (wrong), or even 'that's money that could be spent on Scotland' ... and even then there's barely a majority against.

But yes, like you i fully expect an indy Scotland to throw off those costs, so there's only another £6Bn* of cuts to specify. Next?

(* to cover 'the deficit gap', not the whole deficit).

12 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I think you might be right about the world police types being unionists. There is a reason that Ruth is continuously pictured riding a tank while wrapped in the union flag. I'm glad we agree on something :-)

It's an attitude that's quite central to traditional toryism, but there's also always been a strong 'militaristic' bloc within Labour too - and the snippers are the same people. They didn't necessarily drop those things when switching allegiance to the SNP.

Just as 40% of SNP voters showed themselves aligned with kippers over brexit.

People like you want to pretend that all indy supporters are some sort of special human, with none of the traits you dislike. It's simply not true. They're imperfect people, just as you're being by thinking they're all so 'perfect'.