The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

I refer  you to my earlier answer where I exposed the threadbare nature of your argument.

"Scotland is a nation (I'm sure you used to say country) is a simple statement. You may agree or disagree. As a statement it has nothing either civic or ethnic about it. Just as saying "this is a bowl of soup"  doesn't tell you if it's tomato or lentil. 

You have to ask "what sort of soup?" Or "what sort of nation?"

The answer to the second question contains no blood & no soil."

and I refer you to what even comfy referenced, Sturgeon's use of that phrase to claim a greater right to independence.

lookie....

On 2/19/2017 at 1:45 PM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As far as I'm aware, Sturgeon has to state the obvious.....Scotland is a Country.....because people keep putting it to her that some city in England also voted remain.

If it's not blood and soil, you'll have to tell me how the status of any place defines it's civic right to independence.

I keep on asking, and you keep on not answering with deflective bollocks like this.

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

Unless you can tell me with an answer that stands up, the blood and soil stands as true.

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

and I refer you to what even comfy referenced, Sturgeon's use of that phrase to claim a greater right to independence.

If it's not blood and soil, you'll have to tell me how the status of any place defines it's civic right to independence.

I keep on asking, and you keep on not answering with deflective bollocks like this.

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

Unless you can tell me with an answer that stands up, the blood and soil stands as true.

 

I refer  you to my earlier answer where I exposed the threadbare nature of your argument.

"Scotland is a nation (I'm sure you used to say country) is a simple statement. You may agree or disagree. As a statement it has nothing either civic or ethnic about it. Just as saying "this is a bowl of soup"  doesn't tell you if it's tomato or lentil. 

You have to ask "what sort of soup?" Or "what sort of nation?"

The answer to the second question contains no blood & no soil."

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

I refer  you to my earlier answer where I exposed the threadbare nature of your argument.

you're ignoring the context in which Sturgeon always says those words.

As even Comfy referenced:-

On 2/19/2017 at 1:45 PM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As far as I'm aware, Sturgeon has to state the obvious.....Scotland is a Country.....because people keep putting it to her that some city in England also voted remain.

Do I have to post that cringeworthy interview with Andrew Neil where she used it *exactly* as I'm saying....?

It wasn't said as a statement of fact, it was said as a statement to try to claim a greater right to independence.

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

Unless you can tell me with an answer that stands up, the blood and soil stands as true.

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

you're ignoring the context in which Sturgeon always says those words.

As even Comfy referenced:-

Do I have to post that cringeworthy interview with Andrew Neil where she used it *exactly* as I'm saying....?

It wasn't said as a statement of fact, it was said as a statement to try to claim a greater right to independence.

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

Unless you can tell me with an answer that stands up, the blood and soil stands as true.

I refer  you to my earlier answer where I exposed the threadbare nature of your argument.

"Scotland is a nation (I'm sure you used to say country) is a simple statement. You may agree or disagree. As a statement it has nothing either civic or ethnic about it. Just as saying "this is a bowl of soup"  doesn't tell you if it's tomato or lentil. 

You have to ask "what sort of soup?" Or "what sort of nation?"

The answer to the second question contains no blood & no soil."

[eFestivals]

36 minutes ago, LJS said:

I refer  you to my earlier answer where I exposed the threadbare nature of your argument.

"Scotland is a nation (I'm sure you used to say country) is a simple statement. You may agree or disagree. As a statement it has nothing either civic or ethnic about it. Just as saying "this is a bowl of soup"  doesn't tell you if it's tomato or lentil. 

You have to ask "what sort of soup?" Or "what sort of nation?"

The answer to the second question contains no blood & no soil."

PMSL

You know i'm right, because you have to lie about how Sturgeon uses that phrase. 

 

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

PMSL

You know i'm right, because you have to lie about how Sturgeon uses that phrase. 

 

I refer  you to my earlier answer where I exposed the threadbare nature of your argument.

"Scotland is a nation (I'm sure you used to say country) is a simple statement. You may agree or disagree. As a statement it has nothing either civic or ethnic about it. Just as saying "this is a bowl of soup"  doesn't tell you if it's tomato or lentil. 

You have to ask "what sort of soup?" Or "what sort of nation?"

The answer to the second question contains no blood & no soil."

[eFestivals]

PMSL 

You know i'm right, because you have to lie about how Sturgeon uses that phrase.

Sturgeon uses that phrase to claim a greater right to independence. Even comfy admitted to that.

Tell me the 'civic' in that, or show you know it's true with more deflection from it.

 

[Comfy Bean]

On 2/19/2017 at 1:45 PM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As far as I'm aware, Sturgeon has to state the obvious.....Scotland is a Country.....because people keep putting it to her that some city in England also voted remain.

 

 

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Demanding a greater right of indy because "Scotland is a country" has fuck all to do with anything of that, apart from its past as a blood and soil nation.

So why does Sturgeon claim that it does, unless the blood and soil of the part gives a greater right to now?

 

 

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Meanwhile, Sturgeon invokes blood and soil each time she says "Scotland is a country" to claim a greater right to nationhood than just a civic decision.

 

Whether I recognise Scotland as a country or not is no part of what I'm raising and you're trying to deflect from.

I recognise that Sturgeon claims a greater right to a new sovereign country of Scotland via Scotland's blood and soil past.

Why won't you address that? Because you know I'm right, or because you're just too thick for this discussion?

 

Nicola also says "Scotland is a country" to claim a greater right to independence than other places.

A claim that is absent of anything civic, and which invokes Scotland's past as a blood and soil nation.

 

 

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Why not actually address the question I asked?

Until you actually do, you're addressing nothing of what I've said.

Is that because you're thick, or because you know I'm right?

Here's that question again:-

what is the 'civic' when Sturgeon claims a greater right to new-nationhood with the words "Scotland is a country"?

 

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Whatever you regard them as, it makes fuck all difference to a civic want to self-determine.

That's what a civic movement is. FFS.

As soon as someone starts invoking a greater right via tribal history, that's blood & soil.

 

 

8 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Scotland being a country gives it no greater civic right to independence than a place which isn't currently thought of as a country.

The civic right is given *ONLY* by that civic society, and not by history.

There is no greater right to independence via history. To claim there is is to invoke the blood and soil of that ancient/historical tribal state.

 

But you still haven't addressed mine.

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

Unless you can tell me with an answer that stands up, the blood and soil stands as true.

 

7 hours ago, eFestivals said:

the 'greater' right to independence is what she claims when she says "Scotland is a country".

You've even posted within the last few days stating yourself that's what she's doing when she says it.

FFS. It's like trying to have a conversation with a goldfish.

 

 

6 hours ago, eFestivals said:

and I refer you to what even comfy referenced, Sturgeon's use of that phrase to claim a greater right to independence.

lookie....

If it's not blood and soil, you'll have to tell me how the status of any place defines it's civic right to independence.

I keep on asking, and you keep on not answering with deflective bollocks like this.

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

Unless you can tell me with an answer that stands up, the blood and soil stands as true.

 

 

6 hours ago, eFestivals said:

you're ignoring the context in which Sturgeon always says those words.

As even Comfy referenced:-

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

Unless you can tell me with an answer that stands up, the blood and soil stands as true.

 

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

PMSL 

You know i'm right, because you have to lie about how Sturgeon uses that phrase.

Sturgeon uses that phrase to claim a greater right to independence. Even comfy admitted to that.

Tell me the 'civic' in that, or show you know it's true with more deflection from it.

 

Just a quick point of order here Neil if I may. Not for the first time today you seem to have made an error.

Thought it would be worth pointing it out as you have made it 4 times already ( see bolded above ).

As I have previously posted, NS was talking about Scotland`s voice being heard within the Brexit negotiations. When asked why Scotland should have a seat at the table when ( City in England ) also voted remain she spoke about Scotland being a Country where all 32 regions voted to remain.

In fact she has also referenced London ( a city ) and Norn Ireland ( another Country ) several times when talking about Article 50 and Brexit in general. ( I`ll post quotes )

As is clear from my post I was talking within the context of the EU Ref : " because people kept putting it to her that some City in England also voted remain "

Cities in England voting to remain in the EU has nowt to do with Scottish Indy although you seem to be bringing my words into the specific indy debate ( 4 times ).

I have enlarged the part of my post that makes it crystal clear that she / I was talking about the EU ref and NOT another Indy ref. She is the First Minister of Scotland and going forward she thinks Scotlands voice should be heard. That is what I was referencing and you are now mis-representing.

 

Speech in full here : https://stv.tv/news/politics/1358534-nicola-sturgeon-speech-in-full-after-eu-referendum-result/

Thank you for joining me this morning after a long night - and a long few months - for all of us.

Yesterday, Scotland - like London and Northern Ireland - voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.

We voted to protect our place in the world's biggest single market - and the jobs and investment that depend on it.

 

We voted to safeguard our freedom to travel, live, work and study in other European countries.

And we voted to renew our reputation as an outward looking, open and inclusive country.

It is significant - in my view - that we did so after a campaign that was positive about the EU and about the benefits of migration.

Indeed, I want to take the opportunity this morning to speak directly to citizens of other EU countries living here in Scotland - you remain welcome here, Scotland is your home and your contribution is valued.

Unfortunately, of course, yesterday's result in Scotland was not echoed across the whole of the UK.

The UK wide vote to leave the EU is one that I deeply regret.

It remains my passionate belief that it is better for all parts of the UK to be members of the European Union.

........................

I should say that I have also spoken this morning with Mayor Sadiq Khan and he is clear that he shares this objective for London - so there is clear common cause between us.

Edited February 20, 2017 by comfortablynumb1910

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

PMSL 

You know i'm right, because you have to lie about how Sturgeon uses that phrase.

Sturgeon uses that phrase to claim a greater right to independence. Even comfy admitted to that.

Tell me the 'civic' in that, or show you know it's true with more deflection from it.

 

I refer  you to my earlier answer where I exposed the threadbare nature of your argument.

"Scotland is a nation (I'm sure you used to say country) is a simple statement. You may agree or disagree. As a statement it has nothing either civic or ethnic about it. Just as saying "this is a bowl of soup"  doesn't tell you if it's tomato or lentil. 

You have to ask "what sort of soup?" Or "what sort of nation?"

The answer to the second question contains no blood & no soil"

I bolded a couple of bits since you seem to be struggling to understand the English Language.

And just to expand a little Sturgeon's claim that Scotland is a country is backed by such as David Cameron ...

 

Quote

 

So the vote on Thursday is not about whether Scotland is a nation.

Scotland is a proud, strong, successful nation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-full-text-of-david-camerons-no-going-back-speech-9735902.html

 

 

Ruth Davidson...

Quote

 

I don’t know how much more Scottish I can be. I think that we walk taller and shout louder and stand stronger for being part of the United Kingdom, and to say that makes me anti my own country is offensive

...

  Davidson believes that – given time, perhaps as long as a decade – she can make them, once again, attractive to the Scottish mainstream. “You don’t represent a nation if you only represent one strata of a nation,”

 : http://www.scotsman.com/news/interview-ruth-davidson-politician-1-2071896

 

Cameron Miliband & Clegg in the famous vow

Quote

 

"the UK exists to ensure opportunity and security for all by sharing our resources equitably across all four nations"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/scottish-independence/scottish-independence-cameron-miliband-and-clegg-sign-devolution-vow-but-scots-sceptical-9736090.html

 

Presumably your blood & soil nonsense refers back to the foundation of the Nation of Scotland over 1000 years ago. Fascinating as that may be to historians, it has little relevance to modern Scotland. Scotland's claim to Nationhood owes much more to the Devolution Act of 1998, the subsequent re-convening of the Scottish Parliament and subsequent additional powers bestowed upon it. 

Meanwhile you find yourself in a lonely place, relying on a purely semantic argument with no foundation in reality. For what its worth you completely misunderstand the original meaning of "Blood & Soil" (the soil refers to a belief that "put farmers and other rural workers above those who worked in cities etc. The rugged toughness of peasants from medieval times was celebrated..." (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/nazi-germany/blood-and-soil/) This is of course a particular feature of Scottish Nationalism.

May I suggest you do some reading and get your facts right before spouting waffle. Of course the exact ideological nature of "Blood & Soil" is not really important if you're just trying to suggest a link with the Nazis, is it? 

Astonishingly, yet again you find yourself a lone voice (well a  lone sane voice anyway) making this bizarre claim but yet , as ever, Neil is right & the rest of the world is wrong.

Now can we move on, please?

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As is clear from my post I was talking within the context of the EU Ref : " because people kept putting it to her that some City in England also voted remain "

Cities in England voting to remain in the EU has nowt to do with Scottish Indy although you seem to be bringing my words into the specific indy debate ( 4 times ).

It was suggested to Sturgeon that cities in England that voted remain might also want independence.

Sturgeon replied "Scotland is a country" to indicate a greater right to indy than a city.

What is too difficult for you?

What difference does Scotland being "a country" make to a civic movement? Civic is about that society's choice, nowt else. 

[Comfy Bean]

35 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It was suggested to Sturgeon that cities in England that voted remain might also want independence.

Sturgeon replied "Scotland is a country" to indicate a greater right to indy than a city.

What is too difficult for you?

What difference does Scotland being "a country" make to a civic movement? Civic is about that society's choice, nowt else. 

Not in my post it wasn't. The one you keep referring to that was clearly about Scotlands voice being heard in the eu negotiations and absolutely nothing to do with a greater right to anything.

Can you remember what cities it was that wanted independence?

Were they all in England.

If it was say Inverness, would the question be : Should Inverness be an independent City or Should Inverness be an independent Country ? Would the later be claiming a greater right than the former and would it therefor involve facist undertones ?

Come to think of it, I think Inverness quite recently became a city. Maybe they hate us townies and are looking for Indy. Back in yir box Inverness...!

Im trying to take this seriously !

Perhaps you could link me up to her saying this thing about a Country having a greater right than a City. Apologies if I have missed it.

 

[LJS]

8 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Not in my post it wasn't. The one you keep referring to that was clearly about Scotlands voice being heard in the eu negotiations and absolutely nothing to do with a greater right to anything.

Can you remember what cities it was that wanted independence?

Were they all in England.

If it was say Inverness, would the question be : Should Inverness be an independent City or Should Inverness be an independent Country ? Would the later be claiming a greater right than the former and would it therefor involve facist undertones ?

Come to think of it, I think Inverness quite recently became a city. Maybe they hate us townies and are looking for Indy. Back in yir box Inverness...!

Im trying to take this seriously !

Perhaps you could link me up to her saying this thing about a Country having a greater right than a City. Apologies if I have missed it.

 

 Morning Comfy. I think Neil's popped out for a cup of soup.

[LJS]

Have you signed, Neil.

Petition launched to declare Bristol independent so it can remain in the EU

http://m.bristolpost.co.uk/8203-petition-launched-to-declare-bristol-independent-so-it-can-remain-in-the-eu/story-30107238-detail/story.html

 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Not in my post it wasn't.

Then please give me an alternative reason for what "Scotland is a country" is meaning and why Sturgeon keeps on saying it as justification for something.

Because it has no meaning for a civic movement. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

47 minutes ago, LJS said:

Have you signed, Neil.

Petition launched to declare Bristol independent so it can remain in the EU

http://m.bristolpost.co.uk/8203-petition-launched-to-declare-bristol-independent-so-it-can-remain-in-the-eu/story-30107238-detail/story.html

 

Nope, because i'm not driven by the self-serving.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

 Morning Comfy. I think Neil's popped out for a cup of soup.

some of us have done 4 hours work already this morning, and will put in at least another ten hours, so might find that people being deliberately ignorant isn't top of the list today.

 

 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Can you remember what cities it was that wanted independence?

Were they all in England.

How dare the English demand the same right as Scots....?  Is that what you're getting at?

Or is that "cities have no right to be independent"? If so, I think you've just picked a fight with Singapore.

What do you mean, comfy, and what relevance does it have to a 'civic' movement?

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Not in my post it wasn't. The one you keep referring to that was clearly about Scotlands voice being heard in the eu negotiations and absolutely nothing to do with a greater right to anything.

Can you remember what cities it was that wanted independence?

Were they all in England.

If it was say Inverness, would the question be : Should Inverness be an independent City or Should Inverness be an independent Country ? Would the later be claiming a greater right than the former and would it therefor involve facist undertones ?

Come to think of it, I think Inverness quite recently became a city. Maybe they hate us townies and are looking for Indy. Back in yir box Inverness...!

Im trying to take this seriously !

Perhaps you could link me up to her saying this thing about a Country having a greater right than a City. Apologies if I have missed it.

 

You've highlighted it in what you've just posted in the same post.

Why does Sturgeon say "Scotland is a country" when it's suggested to her that English cities might also be independent because they don't wish to leave the EU?

It's not because cities can't become 'civic'-ly independent. All that takes is their self-determination (and the 'boss' country allowing it), *exactly* the same as Scotland.

So what does it mean to say "Scotland is a country" back to that?

It means she's demanding a greater right to indy than cities because of Scotland's history, Scotland's past history as a blood and soil tribal entity.

 

 

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

How dare the English demand the same right as Scots....?  Is that what you're getting at?

Or is that "cities have no right to be independent"? If so, I think you've just picked a fight with Singapore.

What do you mean, comfy, and what relevance does it have to a 'civic' movement?

What nonsense. The city I referenced was Inverness.

Desperate stuff. 

I take it there is no link to Sturgeon saying Scotland has a greater right to Independence than English cities.

Could you lease stop putting stuff in quotes that people didn't say.

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

You've highlighted it in what you've just posted in the same post.

 

Ive highlighted YOU saying she said that Scotland has a greater right to Indy than an English city.

Im still working to the assumption that she actually said this and am patiently awaiting your link.

You have been banging on about Hilter etc for days so I'm playing fair and assuming you will link me up at some point.

I googled it a couple of days ago but couldnt see anything. That means nothing of course.

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

What nonsense. The city I referenced was Inverness.

Desperate stuff. 

The desperate stuff is you posting bollocks like this to avoid addressing what I asked.

 

Quote

I take it there is no link to Sturgeon saying Scotland has a greater right to Independence than English cities.

There's not one I put in front of you right now.

Take my word for it: more than one instance of it exists.

 

Quote

Could you lease stop putting stuff in quotes that people didn't say.

Sturgeon has never said "Scotland is a country"?

She says it all the time.

The context in which she says it gives it away. She's claiming a greater right to indy via Scotland's blood and soil past-history.

We all know she thinks it's a country, so why is she stating the obvious, if that's what you claim she's doing?

Who is so thick that they don't know she thinks its a country? You? The rest of Scotland? Who?

And what relevance does it have towards indy?

Why won't you answer these questions, and only post deflective bollocks? It doesn't take a genius to know why. 

You know she's doing what I say.

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Ive highlighted YOU saying she said that Scotland has a greater right to Indy than an English city.

Im still working to the assumption that she actually said this and am patiently awaiting your link.

You have been banging on about Hilter etc for days so I'm playing fair and assuming you will link me up at some point.

I googled it a couple of days ago but couldnt see anything. That means nothing of course.

more than once to questions suggesting London could go indy on the same out-of-the-EU basis as Scotland, Sturgeon has said "Scotland is a country" to claim a greater right to indy.

Whether Scotland is a country or isn't a country it has *NO* relevance to whether it can be indy under a civic movement.

So why does she say it?

[Comfy Bean]

47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

more than once to questions suggesting London could go indy on the same out-of-the-EU basis as Scotland, Sturgeon has said "Scotland is a country" to claim a greater right to indy.

Whether Scotland is a country or isn't a country it has *NO* relevance to whether it can be indy under a civic movement.

So why does she say it?

Hi Neil, can you please provide a link to her saying this in the context you describe.

I personally think that the people living in Bristol are as entitled to be independent , if that's what they want, just the same as people living in Wales. It remains my view that one of these is a City and another one is a Country. In this context, I'm not sure why me adding the fact that one is a Country is the work of Hilter.

It may well be that I'm out of step with Sturgeon on this but I'll wait until I've had the chance to read your link to her words. That seems the fairest way.

On the eu ref she represents all 32 local authorities and will work hard to have their voice heard and not let the Tories rattle through their brexit vision unopposed. I've already linked to her comments on how she is working with London....a city ....which seems out of step with her Saying Scotland has a greater right.

I believe Blair is also wanting to stop the Tories getting everything their own way on Brexit. Corbyn not so much.

Anyways, I can't see anything so just one link please.

 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Hi Neil, can you please provide a link to her saying this in the context you describe.

I've already said I don't have one to hand, but I've seen it numerous times.

(I think it's dead funny that no one in Scotland seems to listen to a word she says and it all passes them by. )

You've already posted to say you've heard her say it to re-butt comparisons with cities in England. What exactly was she making that comparison about and what relevance was the status of Scotland to that?

so why don't you tell me what you think she meant and what relevance it had to anything at all of a civic indy campaign (or anything else)....?

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I've already said I don't have one to hand, but I've seen it numerous times.

(I think it's dead funny that no one in Scotland seems to listen to a word she says and it all passes them by. )

You've already posted to say you've heard her say it to re-butt comparisons with cities in England. What exactly was she making that comparison about and what relevance was the status of Scotland to that?

so why don't you tell me what you think she meant and what relevance it had to anything at all of a civic indy campaign (or anything else)....?

 

Sorry mate. I haven't seen her saying it with regards to Scotland having a greater right to independence than an English City, Inverness or Singapore.

I am aware that I have made the statement that I believe Scotland to be a Country and a Nation but I wasn't claiming any greater right to anything. In my view Scotland is a Country. I know you disagree.

Should anything on this from Sturgeon turn up on google then happy to pick this up again.

Im off to request your rugby thread is renamed 5 nations and a region :-)