The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Points you've made to avoid answering the question I asked, and which had nothing at all to do with the question I asked.

That's the question I asked - before you asked anything - that you've spent 3 days posting anything you can think of to deflect from it.

How very very very odd. Someone might even think you know I'm spot on.

Either that, or you're thick as pigshit and Sturgeon does have to remind you what Scotland is (in her mind).

It's one of the other.

Hmm, interestingly we didn't start with a question, we started with a statement:

"I said she's a blood and soil nationalist, as shown by her often breaking into "Scotland is a country". There's nothing civic in that."

So here it is simply saying "Scotland is a country" that defined her as a B&Snat 

"Which then slightly shifted in emphasis to you've yet to tell me what the 'civic' is in claiming a greater right to independence because of tribal Scotland."

So, presumably merely saying "Scotland is a country is no longer enough to qualify her as a B&Snat

I answered your "tribal" point thus

"why is Scotland tribal & the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland isn't?

As it happens us Scots are made up of many tribes & generally speaking we all get on very in a very civil & civic way".

After a bit of tooing & fro-ing you piled in with this, sticking to your new found "tribal" theme...

"Meanwhile, we've established that "Scotland is a country" is nothing 'civic' and is invoking ancient tribal Scotland. Blood and soil."

I then posted a long quote from the respected John Curtice explaining that how Scottish you felt didn't greatly influence how much yo supported Indy which surely would not be the case if we were invoking "ancient tribal Scotland" followed by a definition of civic & ethnic nationalism.

I went on to add in my own words:

"I'm not claiming anything due to history. Any Independence movement needs to define a bit of land that would become the "new" Independent country. It is almost unheard of for independence movements not to use existing boundaries to reach that definition. Ultimately, by your logic, there can be no such thing as civic nationalism "

Strangely the word tribal now disappeared from your argument.

You asked

Go on, tell me how Sturgeon saying "Scotland is a country" fits the first one, and tell me how it doesn't fit the 2nd one. 

They are precisely what I've been getting at.

Yet again I answered:

Because when Sturgeon says "Scotland is a country" she is saying it is "an association of people with equal and shared political rights, and an allegiance to similar political procedures. The nation is a political entity, inclusive and liberal."

There's a lot more tooing & fro-ing where you repeatedly say stuff like this.

When she says "Scotland is a country" she's claiming a greater right than others to nationhood. She's used in that exact way when it's been suggested to her that London or Yorkshire might also be independent.

She is making that claim from ancient history, and not anything that might be inclusive and modern.

There follows a whole swathe of answers from me - my favourite bit is from Alex Massie.

So it is complicated even if it’s not so complicated as to render suggestions the Nats are a bunch of McNazis anything other than contemptible. They’re not and it profits no-one to claim otherwise.

Still you remain unhappy with my many & detailed answers & fire off this..

How about you show you've brain enough to address the specific doing of Sturgeon, deflector? 

What is the 'civic' within "Scotland is a nation"?

We're drilling down to the heart of the matter now and I answer you point with

Scotland is a nation  is a simple statement.  ... As a statement it has nothing either civic or ethnic about it.

This is the now famous "soup" post  - I've omitted the soup to emphasise the central point. the central phrase of your argument indicates nothing either Civic or Ethnic.

You disagree claimning its the way she uses it....

She uses it to claim a greater right of self-determination. . .

There's no greater right of self-determination due to history, unless you recognise the blood and soil ancient nation as meaningful.

Yet again, I supply an answer.

The flaw is in the question. No one is claiming anything via any blood & soil. We are claiming something based on a democratic mandate.

You start to get a bit tetchy at this point (perhaps because I have given a perfectly reasonable answer to your question that you don't like). 

Sturgeon says "Scotland is a country" and claims a greater right to self determination when she says it.

WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND????

THERE IS NO GREATER RIGHT TO NATIONHOOD VIA HISTORY FOR ANYTHING CIVIC.

It only means something towards the blood and soil which created the ancient Scotland

I repeat my previous point which you have never adequately addressed

Scotland is a nation  is a simple statement.  ... As a statement it has nothing either civic or ethnic about it

You get a bit ranty again

If it's not blood and soil, you'll have to tell me how the status of any place defines it's civic right to independence.

I keep on asking, and you keep on not answering with deflective bollocks like this. 

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

Unless you can tell me with an answer that stands up, the blood and soil stands as true.

I repeat my celebrated "soup" post and add

Presumably your blood & soil nonsense refers back to the foundation of the Nation of Scotland over 1000 years ago. Fascinating as that may be to historians, it has little relevance to modern Scotland. Scotland's claim to Nationhood owes much more to the Devolution Act of 1998, the subsequent re-convening of the Scottish Parliament and subsequent additional powers bestowed upon it. 

You could not ask for a clearer answer to you point.

As you could not ask for clearer answers to your point. 

You, on the other hand have provided not an ounce of evidence to support your pathetic assertions that either saying Scotland is  Country qualifies you as a B&Snat or using that claim as a justification to a greater right to Indy is what makes you one.

And you have the cheek to complain that I don't answer your questions.

 

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

3 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Hi Neil. On the TV I saw she said that she respected the rights of the people of England and Wales to vote to leave the EU.

She added that Scotland was a Country where all 32 regions voted to remain. As I've already mentioned once or twice the context of the interview was around Scotland having a voice in the a50 negotiations.

You can easily find these words on google. Unlike the bit you claim she said it around a greater right to Indy for Scotland over any English cities. To be honest I'm starting to think you made that up although happy to stand corrected.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/nicola-sturgeon-scotland-will-lead-brexit-fight-to-stay-in-single-market-1-8226175

There is a strong democratic justification for that approach. After all, 48 per cent of the electorate voted to remain in the EU. So did two of the four nations of the UK. And Sheffield is a perfect example of how close the referendum was in much of England. This city voted to leave by 51 to 49 per cent – only 6,000 votes separated the two sides........

I completely accept that there was a narrow majority in Wales and England for leaving the European Union. However I don’t believe it can be concluded that there was a majority anywhere for leaving the single market. Although a hard Brexit might appease some members of the UK Cabinet, it would damage trade, reduce employment and cause unnecessary hardship.

And for that reason – and this is the second strand of our approach – the Scottish Government is also investigating whether distinctive solutions are possible for Scotland.

I’m well aware that the scale of immigration in England makes it – understandably – a bigger topic of debate than in Scotland. And people may often have legitimate concerns about whether increased immigration affects their own access to public services and housing.

 

[Comfy Bean]

I respect the result in England but every single MP from the SNP in the House of Commons represents a constituency that voted to remain and therefore they have a duty to represent how their constituents voted.

“All of that underlines the fact that we are currently in unprecedented circumstances. And so all of us - in Scotland, across the UK and throughout the EU – should approach discussions with creativity, flexibility, and a genuine desire to secure the best outcomes.

Read more at: http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/sturgeon-seeks-english-allies-to-shape-brexit-1-8224244

Edited February 21, 2017 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

AM: What do you say to those people across the UK who voted to leave the EU who listen to you now and say she’s just a wrecker. She’s trying to overturn the democratic vote of the entire UK?

NS: Well I’m not trying to do that but I would ask people to equally understand that I’m the First Minister of Scotland, Scotland is a country, we’re part of the UK right now but we voted to remain and I’ve got a duty, particularly given that this is not some academic debate, this is a debate that has real implications for jobs and living standards of people the length and breadth of the country. I’ve got an obligation to seek to protect Scotland’s interests and that’s what I’m trying to do. So I’m compromising. But at the end of the day I’m not going to sit back while Scotland is driven over a hard Brexit cliff edge with all the implications for jobs and the type of country we are that that would have.

AM: Theresa May is watching, one message to her very clearly, what do you say?

NS: Don’t disregard Scotland because it’s not acceptable to do so. You said during the independence referendum that Scotland was then a full partner in the UK. It’s now time to prove that and how you respond to the sensible compromise consensus proposals that the Scottish government has put forward will tell as much, possibly everything we need to know about whether Scotland really is an equal partner or whether that’s just rhetoric.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/08011701.pdf

[Comfy Bean]

Ms Sturgeon said: "After a campaign that has been characterised in the rest of the UK by fear and hate, my priority in the days, weeks and months ahead will be to act at all times in the best interests of Scotland and in a way that unites, not divides us.

"Let me be clear about this. Whatever happens as a result of this outcome, England, Wales and Northern Ireland will always be Scotland's closest neighbours and our best friends - nothing will change that.

"But I want to leave no-one in any doubt about this. I am proud of Scotland and how we voted yesterday.

"We proved that we are a modern, outward looking and inclusive country and we said clearly that we do not want to leave the European Union.

"I am determine to do what it takes to make sure these aspirations are realised."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36621030

[Comfy Bean]

Sturgeon said the intervention was “not an attempt to frustrate the will of the people of England and Wales. But it is part of our overall attempt to protect the will of the Scottish people. My priority is to seek to protect Scotland’s interests and part of that is to protect the voice of the Scottish parliament.”

She added: “Let me be clear: I recognise and respect the right of England and Wales to leave the European Union. But the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland and the national parliament of Scotland cannot be brushed aside as if they do not matter.

[Comfy Bean]

On 2/20/2017 at 10:24 AM, eFestivals said:

Nicola also says "Scotland is a country" to claim a greater right to independence than other places.

 

 

On 2/20/2017 at 10:26 AM, eFestivals said:

Here's that question again:-

what is the 'civic' when Sturgeon claims a greater right to new-nationhood with the words "Scotland is a country"?

 

On 2/20/2017 at 0:12 PM, eFestivals said:

that was cock up, which I managed to copy and so cock-up twice. Ignore, don't be a twat by ignoring me saying it was cock-up. 

 

Scotland being a country gives it no greater civic right to independence than a place which isn't currently thought of as a country.

 

On 2/20/2017 at 0:32 PM, eFestivals said:

 

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

 

 

On 2/20/2017 at 1:16 PM, eFestivals said:

the 'greater' right to independence is what she claims when she says "Scotland is a country".

 

 

On 2/20/2017 at 1:18 PM, eFestivals said:

demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

 

 

On 2/20/2017 at 2:02 PM, eFestivals said:

 Sturgeon's use of that phrase to claim a greater right to independence.

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

Unless you can tell me with an answer that stands up, the blood and soil stands as true.

 

 

On 2/20/2017 at 2:09 PM, eFestivals said:

What is the civic in demanding a greater right to independence via "Scotland is a country"?

Unless you can tell me with an answer that stands up, the blood and soil stands as true.

 

On 2/20/2017 at 6:28 PM, eFestivals said:

 

Sturgeon uses that phrase to claim a greater right to independence.

 

14 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Sturgeon replied "Scotland is a country" to indicate a greater right to indy than a city.

 

12 hours ago, eFestivals said:

It means she's demanding a greater right to indy than cities because of Scotland's history, Scotland's past history as a blood and soil tribal entity.

 

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

She says it all the time.

The context in which she says it gives it away. She's claiming a greater right to indy via Scotland's blood and soil past-history.

 

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Sturgeon has said "Scotland is a country" to claim a greater right to indy.

 

Unfortunately I couldn`t find anything to back any of this up. I`m assuming neither can you Neil.

[Comfy Bean]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

And I'm not claiming she's explicitly said that it has a greater right to indy.

  

Edited February 21, 2017 by comfortablynumb1910

[LJS]

11 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

  

 nailed it, Comfy!

 

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

It's OK I'll do it for you

I can't find the words you say she said. 

 

If it doesn't have the words I said you've just posted a random video and are stupid enough (or dishonest enough) think it's relevant. :lol:

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

I'm not making unsubstantiated claims 

It's all you do in this thread, FFS.

Me, I merely said what I saw, and then extrapolated the only possible meaning from the words and context.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

So here it is simply saying "Scotland is a country" that defined her as a B&Snat 

No. That's just how brain-dead or dishonest you are.

She says "Scotland is a country" a LOT. Mostly it's just about her claiming a greater status for Scotland than most people see it as, because it's usually to suggest "it's sovereign" when it's not along with a false grievance for that (not) 'sovereignty' being impinged upon.

But that's not every time she's said it. Sometimes she's said it to claim a greater right to independence because "Scotland is a country".

3 days into a convo, and you're still too dishonest to address what I've actually said.

[eFestivals]

and now I've looked at comfy's posts above, him too. 

FFS. :lol:

There's more sense to be got from a 2 year old than you two.

Fair enough if you doubt and reject what I've said, but if you're really so fucking thick as to believe you're addressing anything of it with those posts, then Scotland is doomed indy or not.  If those are honest posts I'm surprised you've brain enough to breathe.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

 nailed it, Comfy!

 

Yep, nailed.

After three days of me saying what she's invoking (as is clear from context), you're suddenly surprised by me saying she's not made an explicit claim. That's how brain dead you are.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

It's OK I'll do it for you

I can't find the words you say she said. 

It would be rather astounding if Sturgeon was talking about the actual referendum result last March, wouldn't it?

The give away is in Andrew Neil's intro, where he says "in just 10 days time Scotland would have been indy".

Yep, that's how thick you are.

Edited February 22, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It would be rather astounding if Sturgeon was talking about the actual referendum result last March, wouldn't it?

The give away is in Andrew Neil's intro, where he says "in just 10 days time Scotland would have been indy".

Yep, that's how thick you are.

So what interview were you offering to post when you said...

"Do I have to post that cringeworthy interview with Andrew Neil where she used it *exactly* as I'm saying....?"

 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

So what interview were you offering to post when you said...

"Do I have to post that cringeworthy interview with Andrew Neil where she used it *exactly* as I'm saying....?"

 

there's at least one other Andrew Neil interview out there, and from after the ref.

Tho I may have been mistaken, and it might have not been with him - a conclusion I reached myself when I went looking the other day, after I'd posted that comment.

(tho the one you've posted is defo cringeworthy from her. I like the bit where she says she'd cut like a tory on steroids)

[LJS]

17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No. That's just how brain-dead or dishonest you are.

She says "Scotland is a country" a LOT. Mostly it's just about her claiming a greater status for Scotland than most people see it as, because it's usually to suggest "it's sovereign" when it's not along with a false grievance for that (not) 'sovereignty' being impinged upon.

But that's not every time she's said it. Sometimes she's said it to claim a greater right to independence because "Scotland is a country".

3 days into a convo, and you're still too dishonest to address what I've actually said.

Except you started out by claiming....

I said she's a blood and soil nationalist, as shown by her often breaking into "Scotland is a country". There's nothing civic in that."

There was nothing about greater right to independence, you added that later when it became clear your initial claim was absurd.

You have advanced no argument at all to support your endlessly repeated assertion. Repeatedly asserting something without a shred of evidence is not a reasoned argument.

When presented with reasoned argument from Comfy or myself you have no response other than personal insults and repeating yet again your groundless assertion.

You really need to learn the difference between assertion and argument.

 

[LJS]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

there's at least one other Andrew Neil interview out there, and from after the ref.

Tho I may have been mistaken, and it might have not been with him - a conclusion I reached myself when I went looking the other day, after I'd posted that comment.

(tho the one you've posted is defo cringeworthy from her. I like the bit where she says she'd cut like a tory on steroids)

As you are well aware other interpretations are available.

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, LJS said:

Except you started out by claiming....

I said she's a blood and soil nationalist, as shown by her often breaking into "Scotland is a country". There's nothing civic in that."

Shit loads of things have been said in this thread, but not every comment has been written with its full context.

If she's breaking into "Scotland is a country" to be a blood and soil nationalist on the occasions I've said, the same driving thoughts behind it is exceedingly likely to be there on other occasions too. If what i've said there is the case, it doesn't get to mean that it's provable as that via context on every speaking of it.

(and I've made clear that on occasions she's not using it like that, she's merely trying to tell people that black is white in the hope they'll believe it and consider Scoltland differently as a result).

Fuck me, it's like teaching a kid how to talk.

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, LJS said:

As you are well aware other interpretations are available.

when she says do it like Osborne she means cut like Osborne.

(except she'#d have to cut much harder, cos Osborne had a bounce-back from recession in his favour, and Scotland doesn't).

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

when she says do it like Osborne she means cut like Osborne.

(except she'#d have to cut much harder, cos Osborne had a bounce-back from recession in his favour, and Scotland doesn't).

I disagree.

[LJS]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Shit loads of things have been said in this thread, but not every comment has been written with its full context.

If she's breaking into "Scotland is a country" to be a blood and soil nationalist on the occasions I've said, the same driving thoughts behind it is exceedingly likely to be there on other occasions too. If what i've said there is the case, it doesn't get to mean that it's provable as that via context on every speaking of it.

(and I've made clear that on occasions she's not using it like that, she's merely trying to tell people that black is white in the hope they'll believe it and consider Scoltland differently as a result).

Fuck me, it's like teaching a kid how to talk.

This nonsense had been repeatedly refuted by myself & comfy. You have offered absolutely nothing to back up your assertion. Only pathetic childish insults.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

This nonsense had been repeatedly refuted by myself & comfy.

You've not once addressed it. :lol:

But if you have, it'll be easy for you to tell me again what relevance "Scotland has a country" has within a conversation that mentions English cities also having voted yes.
(which is something comfy has admitted to seeing.)

You never do.

Edited February 22, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

You've not once addressed it.

But if you have, it'll be easy for you to tell me again what relevance "Scotland has a country" has within a conversation that mentions English cities also having voted yes.
(which is something comfy has admitted to seeing.)

You never do.

It is a widely accepted view that Scotland is a country (albeit not a sovereign one) defined by modern liberal inclusive values and not based on any ethnic grouping or admiration  for those who work on the land.

You have failed to show how the use of the phrase in that context has anything to do with anything tribal, historic, Nazi, bloody or soiled.

You just keep repeating the same question endlessly. Do you remember these dolls where you pulled a string in their back & they said one of a very limited number of phrases.

That's you.