The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

No its not. 

well, yeah, you seem to exist in fairy-land, but the rest of us exist where we do. 

 

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

Let's go back to my friend Angela. She was born & brought up  in Palermo, Sicily but now lives in Edinburgh.

You are saying Edinburgh is her background?

It is now a part of her background, yep. It's the centre of her existence at the current time.

She has a background of living in Scotland, and elsewhere. The only important part towards indy is her living in Scotland.

[eFestivals]

27 minutes ago, lost said:

Her red line isn't staying in the EU, its single market access.

yep. Rather shot herself around this one.

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, LJS said:

There is much more to being in the EU than trade. Its also about being inclusive not divisive. Internationalist not Insular.

In Sturgeon's december doc, she made clear it was the trade that mattered and not the cultural ties.

For her and the SNP, trying to take that line of argument is over. 

[lost]

8 minutes ago, LJS said:

Politically, she probably has to decide whether to call a referendum in the next few months. The fact is that we won't know in that timescale what arrangement will be agreed but all the noises coming from Theresa May have indicated that a so called "hard Brexit" is on the cards - which would presumably mean no free single market access. For the reasons given above, I don't believe that is where we will actually end up but that is the public position of the UK government. 

The Scottish government also made some proposals to try & maintain access to the single market for Scotland even if the UK as a whole didn't go down that route. Now the proposals have been pretty much ignored by the UK government.

Whilst Europe & Brexit will provide the trigger for the next Indyref (if we have one) i don't think it will be the main plank in the pro indy campaign. I think it will be much more about the sort of country we want to live in.

 

I can see May now promising to fight for Scotland's wishes in the negotiations. If she doesn't get it she can blame the EU plus she'd then delay the Scottish referendum until after we' d left leaving Scotland to have to negotiate entering the EU and leaving Britain at the same time. She's been given an open goal.

[eFestivals]

57 minutes ago, LJS said:

Instead it has become obsessed with preventing a second independence referendum

not your own words, I know. McKenna's words, talking about S. Labour.

The only people preventing a second indyref are the SNP. It can't happen before they ask for one.

There isn't half some bullshit written to pander or lie. 

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

well, yeah, you seem to exist in fairy-land, but the rest of us exist where we do. 

 

It is now a part of her background, yep. It's the centre of her existence at the current time.

She has a background of living in Scotland, and elsewhere. The only important part towards indy is her living in Scotland.

Well, Neil, as so often we have a different understanding of the English language.

Anyway, here are some examples of people talking about their backgrounds which make it very clear indeed that where you live is, for most people a very small part of their background.

Cecil Madden talks about his background

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04dgtp3

Walter Bunn talks about his background

http://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Roy-Palmer-collection/025M-C1023X0098XX-0100V0#_

HONG KONG POP STAR PHIL LAM TALKS ABOUT HIS BACKGROUND AND INFLUENCES

http://www.helloasia.com.au/interviews/phil-lam-hong-kong-talks-about-his-background-and-influences/

Mayor Ed Lee talks protecting immigrants, opens up about his own family's background

http://www.ktvu.com/news/234944359-story

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

where you live is, for most people a very small part of their background.

I don't particularly disagree with that. Background is made up of all sorts of things.

But in regard to Scottish indy, it's vital. The only people who are going to be voting  and (wanting to be) benefiting are those with a background of living in Scotland. It becomes everything of it.

Edited March 4, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, lost said:

I can see May now promising to fight for Scotland's wishes in the negotiations. If she doesn't get it she can blame the EU plus she'd then delay the Scottish referendum until after we' d left leaving Scotland to have to negotiate entering the EU and leaving Britain at the same time. She's been given an open goal.

Then why hasn't she already done so? 

The simple truth is that there are advantages and disadvantages to any of the possible arrangements we might arrive at for the relationships between Scotland/UK and the EU. Its also true that we simply don't know how any of the possible scenarios will pan out in practice. 

Scotland voted to remain in the UK just over 2 years ago. the UK we voted to remain in will shortly cease to exist. 

It is perfectly reasonable that we have a national discussion around whether we want to remain in the new UK. Part of that discussion will be a stout defence of the advantages of staying with the post Brexit union.

For me the long term advantages of getting the fuck out of an increasingly right wing insular and isolated UK far outweigh any short term disadvantages that there might be.  

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I don't particularly disagree with that. Background is made up of all sorts of things.

But in regard to Scottish indy, it's vital. The only people who are going to be voting  and (wanting to be) benefiting are those with a background of living in Scotland. It becomes everything of it.

The word background adds nothing to the meaning of this sentence so lets take it out

"The only people who are going to be voting  and (wanting to be) benefiting are those with a background of living in Scotland. It becomes everything of it"

its only there to try & desperately give Khan's words some legitimacy. 

 

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

Then why hasn't she already done so? 

she has, but peeps like you tend to dismiss it and say it doesn't count.

gotta say I'd probably dismiss it too, but I'm just pointing out it has been said.

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

It is perfectly reasonable that we have a national discussion around whether we want to remain in the new UK.

It is.

It's perhaps less reasonable to have your FM telling you're having one on her say-so and not yours.

Just thought I'd point that out.

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

Scotland voted to remain in the UK just over 2 years ago. the UK we voted to remain in will shortly cease to exist. 

Hmmm... I'd say those who voted to remain part of the UK are smart enough to realise that with the result comes UK decisions, and therefore get what they've voted for.

I'd also say that plenty who voted for indy are also smart enough to realise that with the result comes UK decisions, and therefore know they're not being fucked over.

Which only leaves the ones claiming to be fucked over. I'll let you tell me what they're driven by.

[lost]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

Then why hasn't she already done so? 

Because the SNP haven't asked for a referendum yet. May can now say wait till the discussions are over so the Scots know what they are voting for. I can try to provide tariff free or very close access to the single market

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

its only there to try & desperately give Khan's words some legitimacy. 

if he wanted to make the connection you say, he'd have used a speech centred around something different and he'd have used different words.

You know, words that say what you're desperately wanting him to have said, instead of what he really did.

There was him pointing out the divisive politics, and here you are hammering that wedge as hard as possible.

Go on, tell me again he was wrong.

 

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

if he wanted to make the connection you say, he'd have used a speech centred around something different and he'd have used different words.

What you mean words like  "those who try to divide us on the basis of whether we’re English or Scottish" ? 

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

You know, words that say what you're desperately wanting him to have said, instead of what he really did.

You mean words like  "those who try to divide us on the basis of whether we’re English or Scottish?" 

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

There was him pointing out the divisive politics, and here you are hammering that wedge as hard as possible.

Go on, tell me again he was wrong.

 

He was wrong.

And as for divisive, I'd say insinuating your opponents are a bit racist is rather divisive, wouldn't you?.

[LJS]

5 minutes ago, lost said:

Because the SNP haven't asked for a referendum yet. May can now say wait till the discussions are over so the Scots know what they are voting for. I can try to provide tariff free or very close access to the single market

well, it shall be interesting to see what she says if and when Nicola asks for a referendum, won't it?

[LJS]

I found a cartoon about Neil 

 

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

What you mean words like  "those who try to divide us on the basis of whether we’re English or Scottish" ? 

You mean words like  "those who try to divide us on the basis of whether we’re English or Scottish?" 

He was wrong.

And as for divisive, I'd say insinuating your opponents are a bit racist is rather divisive, wouldn't you?.

You might as well be having a go at the SNP for not being named "the party of nationalism for people of all backgrounds who reside in Scotland".

FFS.

Can I smell something? Oh yeah, desperation.

Edited March 4, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

You might as well be having a go at the SNP for not being named "the party of nationalism for people of all backgrounds who reside in Scotland".

FFS.

Can I smell something? Oh yeah, desperation.

I suggest you change your pants then.

[LJS]

Good piece in the grauniad

 

Hard Brexit is making the case for Scottish independence

...

Effectively, the anti-EU posturing of old Bennites has fused with the Conservative party’s decision to surrender its soul to rabid Euroscepticism, and threatens to reduce Westminster politics to a grim charade.

Now think about what all this looks like in Scotland, and how it chimes with a sense that London-based politicians little understand a country that voted 62% to 38% for the remain side, nor have any idea what to say to its people.

Last weekend, in one of the most clunking stunts I have ever seen from a Labour politician, the London mayor, Sadiq Khan, travelled to the party’s Scottish conference in Perth and made the specious argument that the diverse coalition of people who think Scotland ought to run its own affairs is comparable to the nasty forces behind Brexit and Trump, and “those who would try to divide us on the basis of our background, race or religion”. The reaction sent Khan and his people into something of a panic and they tried belatedly to dilute the message, but the damage was done.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/04/hard-brexit-case-scottish-independence-second-referendum?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_TweetCaster

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

well, it shall be interesting to see what she says if and when Nicola asks for a referendum, won't it?

there's suggestion in something i read today (Guardian, i think) that May will say "sure, you can have one some time after brexit, what date do you want it?"

Without endorsing that, i can see many ways it can be classed as quite reasonable, including the fact of the result of the last indyref - that, as Scotland wanted to be a part of UK decisions, it should see what a decision means in practice before deciding it doesn't like it.

[lost]

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

Good piece in the grauniad

Last weekend, in one of the most clunking stunts I have ever seen from a Labour politician, the London mayor, Sadiq Khan, travelled to the party’s Scottish conference in Perth and made the specious argument that the diverse coalition of people who think Scotland ought to run its own affairs is comparable to the nasty forces behind Brexit and Trump,

I guess it depends how you measure comparable, If you swap Brussels with Westminster parts of Farage's and Sturgeons speeches are quite comparable. Trumps speech last week regarding "Its my job to represent the United States of America not the world" is also quite similar to someone arguing their job is to represent the people of Scotland.  

Edited March 4, 2017 by lost

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, lost said:

I guess it depends how you measure comparable, If you swap Brussels with Westminster parts of Farage's and Sturgeons speeches are quite comparable. Trumps speech last week regarding "Its my job to represent the United States of America not the world" is also quite similar to someone arguing their job is to represent the people of Scotland.  

yep. "stronger for Scotland" and "putting America first" are same ballpark.

[LJS]

41 minutes ago, lost said:

I guess it depends how you measure comparable, If you swap Brussels with Westminster parts of Farage's and Sturgeons speeches are quite comparable. Trumps speech last week regarding "Its my job to represent the United States of America not the world" is also quite similar to someone arguing their job is to represent the people of Scotland.  

 

37 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yep. "stronger for Scotland" and "putting America first" are same ballpark.

All politicians promise stuff like that. It is certainly not confined to divisive nationalists

Tony Blair came to power on "Britain Deserves Better"

And "Stronger for Scotland" isn't a patch on

[eFestivals]

18 hours ago, LJS said:

And "Stronger for Scotland" isn't a patch on

except Brown was heavily ridiculed for that.

Meanwhile there's been lots of "that's what Scotland wants" back at Sturgeon, just like there's been back at Farage, Brexit, and Trump. There's another thing you share.

Edited March 5, 2017 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

except Brown was heavily ridiculed for that.

Meanwhile there's been lots of "that's what Scotland wants" back at Sturgeon, just like there's been back at Farage, Brexit, and Trump. There's another thing you share.

I've never quite followed why you don't criticise Khan for not having the courage of convictions.

Please correct me if I'm wrong here but do you not agree with the words he gave to the record ?

Why should he feel he has to amend them the very next day for his speech ?

He is entitled to his view on the snp and independence, as we all are.

When people believe that Sturgeon is a facist poisoned dwarf and that supporters of Indy are wrapped in soil or flags and racists then I much prefer for them to come right out and say it.

Its all about opinions :-)

Specifically on your post, I believe Sturgeon is strongly against brexit and trump ( try google ) and I don't imagine she's pals with better together Nigel. I doubt many in Scotland would give him the time of day. UKIP have less MPs up here than the Tories.

Our PM is of course hand in hand with Trump, we voted for brexit and more than half of Folks down your way now vote for the Tories or UKIP. Genuinely not following how you blame Sturgeon for any of that ?

#snpbad

 

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Why should he feel he has to amend them the very next day for his speech ?

it's very normal for a speech to have differences from a pre-released version, because it's a work in progress until the speech is given.

Meanwhile, the pre-release and the speech he gave didn't make the slur you're going round telling people it did.

Why don't you have the courage to be honest and the brain to manage it?

Edited March 5, 2017 by eFestivals