The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

Glad I cheered you up. Sometimes you do seem to take it all a bot seriously.

You will be glad to know I found the article pretty funny.

Don't know where you got it from but if it is meant to persuade folk to vote no, my guess is, like much of the BT campaign , it is as likely to have the opposite effect.

Here's hoping.

Oh FFS.

It's not meant to do anything. It's a statement of facts.

How you or anyone else might choose to use those facts is your own choice, but if you wish to pretend that there's no facts there, there's nothing in the world that might enter your head with meaning.

That sort of head-in-the sand attitude is what makes the whole referendum the comedy gold that it is. There's no sense to be had from anyone, they'd much rather stick to their prejudices.

[LJS]

Oh FFS.

It's not meant to do anything. It's a statement of facts.

How you or anyone else might choose to use those facts is your own choice, but if you wish to pretend that there's no facts there, there's nothing in the world that might enter your head with meaning.

That sort of head-in-the sand attitude is what makes the whole referendum the comedy gold that it is. There's no sense to be had from anyone, they'd much rather stick to their prejudices.

Show me 3 facts in that article then?

I take it you do know what a fact is

[eFestivals]

Show me 3 facts in that article then?

I take it you do know what a fact is

I suggest you forgo your vote. It's probably best.

[LJS]

I suggest you forgo your vote. It's probably best.

As you would say: pmsl

P.s. let me know when you find these facts

[LJS]

If anyone else is reading can you help Neil find his lost facts?

I suspect he may have put them beside his Marbles!

[eFestivals]

1st para: 1 fact

2nd para: 6 facts

3rd para: 2 facts

4th para: 8 facts

5th para: 4 facts

6th para: 1 fact

But there's none there, right?

Btw, people like you denying them as facts is one of the facts!

[LJS]

1st para: 1 fact

2nd para: 6 facts

3rd para: 2 facts

4th para: 8 facts

5th para: 4 facts

6th para: 1 fact

But there's none there, right?

Btw, people like you denying them as facts is one of the facts!

I didn't ask you to count the facts. I asked you to give me three.

I think you are confusing maths with English.

I can explain the difference if that would help.

[LJS]

Actually I found 2

"The two parties occupy different points on the political spectrum"

&

"Both lead movements that are increasing"

Although I did have to cheat a bit with the second by cutting it off in the middle of a word

[Buff124]

Hello All

Hey Neil ,who the eff published the SNP=UKIP article? Please tell me it was Better Together !

Let's do SNP=UKIP arguments on May 26th, after the Euro election results are known.

And I've stumbled across another weirdly appropriate Python clip, vis-a-vis pre-negotation stances. Have you figured out yet that the respective oil revenue predictions are part of that game ? And what's all this about a suggestion by Uk Govt of an oil for debt swap being parrt of the post Yes (caveats etc) negotiation ?

[eFestivals]

Hey Neil ,who the eff published the SNP=UKIP article? Please tell me it was Better Together !

I picked it up from some random post in newspaper comments.

I know you'd love the geezer posting it to be from BT, so I do wonder why he quite supportive of people choosing to vote yes - tho not on the basis of having been lied to or hugely misunderstood what's going on - if they wish to in others of his posts?

Oh dear.

And I've stumbled across another weirdly appropriate Python clip, vis-a-vis pre-negotation stances. Have you figured out yet that the respective oil revenue predictions are part of that game ?

I guess they could be, but right now they're being used by the yes campaign to bullshit the people of Scotland with, to get them to support the yes campaign when they might not otherwise do so.

That's the different kind of politics that you're proud to have in Scotland.

Or is there a special secret note being passed around north of the border, which is wising you up to the purpose of the yes campaign's deliberate lies?

And what's all this about a suggestion by Uk Govt of an oil for debt swap being parrt of the post Yes (caveats etc) negotiation ?

You don't think anyone is mad enough to have a debt owed to them by a party that's already threatened to not pay on a disingenuous basis, without taking something as security, do you?

In all seriousness, if you've only just realised that Scotland's share of the UK's debt would not be paid in only-cash in a normal debt repayment way, you've been very slow. It works to the advantage of both sides to do a variety of debt/asset swaps.

But unfortunately, it also works against all of the "it's good for rUK too" rationale of the white paper case for CU, and the economic "experts" haven't been expert enough in considering real-world politics and real-world economics (which is why one of them called Greece so very badly wrong).

Edited May 1, 2014 by eFestivals
to insert a missing 'not'

[eFestivals]

Let's do SNP=UKIP arguments on May 26th, after the Euro election results are known.

There's only a meaningful discussion to be had if you're able to recognise both's role as a place for protest votes.

[eFestivals]

Actually I found 2

Congratulations. You're now a very significantly wiser person than you were when you found none at all.

Just think how smart you'll be when you've found them all.

[LJS]

Congratulations. You're now a very significantly wiser person than you were when you found none at all.

Just think how smart you'll be when you've found them all.

there are only 2

& they don't support your position.

I suspect the writer who you seem a bit hazy about was possibly David Aaronovitch but as I don't subscribe to the Times, where the article may appear, I cannot verify that.

Am I right Neil?

No luck with finding your facts yet? I'm beating you 2-0 so far. With 8 facts in one paragraph surely you could put three of them forward for consideration.

Or could it be you are wrong.

You don't like being wrong, do you?

Edited May 1, 2014 by LJS

[Buff124]

I picked it up from some random post in newspaper comments.

I know you'd love the geezer posting it to be from BT, so I do wonder why he quite supportive of people choosing to vote yes - tho not on the basis of having been lied to or hugely misunderstood what's going on - if they wish to in others of his posts?

Ok, so bloke down the pub said so ? Fair enough, I'm an anonymous poster too.

Not sure I understand the next paragraph, but I think it means the poster is pro Yes in his other posts, which I haven't read, as there's no link as usual. A wee tip - if you can go to the trouble of copying the text, then its no big deal to copy the link too.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Buff124

[eFestivals]

there are only 2

& they don't support your position.

if you seriously think that, I'm too stunned to say anything more.

Perhaps ask your kids to read it and point them out to you?

I suspect the writer who you seem a bit hazy about was possibly David Aaronovitch but as I don't subscribe to the Times, where the article may appear, I cannot verify that.

Am I right Neil?

utterly wrong. It's precisely how I said above.

No luck with finding your facts yet? I'm beating you 2-0 so far. With 8 facts in one paragraph surely you could put three of them forward for consideration.

Or could it be you are wrong.

You don't like being wrong, do you?

I'm quite happy to adjust my position in the light of the things you have an aversion to.

[LJS]

Oh ,, here is a couple of quotes from Ian McWhirter Pro Union journalist - (I can provide a link to his vehement denunciation of Alexc Salmond's links with Rupert Murdoch if you doubt that)

Might I suggest he has a bit more expertise than any of us on this?

Regrettably, the Liberal Democrat leader then undid the good work by trying to equate Alex Salmond with Nigel Farage of Ukip - calling them "breast beating nationalists". No-one who knows anything about Scotland could possibly confuse Ukip with a social democratic, pro-Europe party that campaigns for open borders and increased immigration and is called the SNP. Oh, and which voted against the benefits cap last week Nick Clegg supports.

Metropolitan commentators, like The Times' David Aaronovitch, were still trying to equate Alex Salmond with Nigel Farage: "peas out of the same hard pod". As if Alex Salmond supported withdrawal from the EU, a bar on immigration, welfare cuts and scrapping green energy.Mr Salmond was accused of cuddling up to racism by saying that Ukip leader has "a certain bonhomie", which is something that has been remarked upon by just about every commentator from the BBC's Nick Robinson down.

For a smear to stick it has to have some basis in reality. There are many legitimate grounds for criticising Alex Salmond, from his attitude to the banks to his tax policies, but suggesting he is a right-wing Ukip fellow traveller is simply daft; as is the suggestion that the First Minister is a supporter of Vladimir Putin. These things may go down well in the london press but no-one in Scotland takes them seriously.

incidentally, I would recommend his article in today's Herald. It is fair balanced & rational & challenges a couple of the assertions we have heard in this thread.

Edited May 1, 2014 by LJS

[Buff124]

There's only a meaningful discussion to be had if you're able to recognise both's role as a place for protest votes.

Brilliant !

So anyone who supports independence is a protest voter ? Now that's what I call comedy gold.

If BT campaign tactics move onto pushing stuff like SNP=UKIP then I would seriously suspect they have been infiltrated by Yes campaigners.

[LJS]

if you seriously think that, I'm too stunned to say anything more.

Perhaps ask your kids to read it and point them out to you?

utterly wrong. It's precisely how I said above.

I'm quite happy to adjust my position in the light of the things you have an aversion to.

Edited May 1, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

Posted Today, 06:42 PM

eFestivals, on 01 May 2014 - 6:02 PM, said:

Brilliant !

So anyone who supports independence is a protest voter ? Now that's what I call comedy gold.

If BT campaign tactics move onto pushing stuff like SNP=UKIP then I would seriously suspect they have been infiltrated by Yes campaigners.

Scotland, the only country in the world where a vote for the party in government is a protest vote.

The logic is astonishing

[eFestivals]

Ok, so bloke down the pub said so ?

nothing to actually say about the words themselves then?

Not sure I understand the next paragraph, but I think it means the poster is pro Yes in his other posts, which I haven't read, as there's no link as usual. A wee tip - if you can go to the trouble of copying the text, then its no big deal to copy the link too.

Not necessary. They're not words I've written myself, but the fact of me posting them as I did is me endorsing them.

What the original writer's ultimate views might be are of no relevence. The words that I posted are what is of relevance.

Care to address the words? Or do you only shoot the messenger?

And HM Government are playing exactly the same game.

And yet, despite me asking quite a few times, you make this claims but have been unable to show me any of those claimed lies.

Salmond has made up some numbers for the oil, that the oil industry themselves think are way too high. That's a deliberate lie!

And in Salmond's speech to the EU the other day, he chose to suggest that (paraphrased) "5 million people would be denied their EU citizenship". He knows the same as everyone else that every British national in Scotland will keep their British citizenship and so all of EU rights they have as an individual. So another deliberate lie.

Bottom line is nothing's non-negotiable. And for the umpteenth time, it also means that both sides have adopted pre-negotiating positions, and that both sides have fall back positions which will only become apparent during post Yes negotiations. If you haven't realised that then you've been very slow

You're under a misapprehension that there's anything* the UK particularly wants from an independent Scotland, except what it owes.

The UK govt doesn't want it to be independent, but if it is? It's gone, a "nowt to do with us" attitude.

It's iScotland that wants things from others.

(* the one exception is Faslane, due to the investment already made in it, and its unique geography - there's no where in rUK that gets anywhere close to providing the same list of things which the military consider to be important).

[eFestivals]

Brilliant !

So anyone who supports independence is a protest voter ? Now that's what I call comedy gold.

If BT campaign tactics move onto pushing stuff like SNP=UKIP then I would seriously suspect they have been infiltrated by Yes campaigners.

Are you guys being deliberately obtuse or something?

I've said no such thing. I've merely pointed out that people DO vote for them because they're not6 the other 'trad' parties.

You know, in the same way that the LibDems often (did ) do well in bye-elections, as a way of giving "the establishment" a bloody nose.

FFS.

[LJS]

Ooh

Meant to include a link to Ian McWhirter's article in today's Herald

here it is

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/yes-or-no-road-to-referendum-will-lead-us-to-a-new-scotland.24090487

I usually try & provide links.

But is I ever miss one out please feel free to challenge me

[eFestivals]

I've yet to read anyone say anything like "SNP=UKIP" apart from the likes of you as a way to try and swerve the truth.

I've given you a list of similarities (that starts by pointing out they have different policies, for the particularly dim). They're all true.

Get over it.

Edited May 1, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Are you guys being deliberately obtuse or something?

I've said no such thing. I've merely pointed out that people DO vote for them because they're not6 the other 'trad' parties.

You know, in the same way that the LibDems often (did ) do well in bye-elections, as a way of giving "the establishment" a bloody nose.

FFS.

Oh look

here's where you didn't say it

eFestivals, on 01 May 2014 - 6:02 PM, said:

[eFestivals]

Oh look

here's where you didn't say it

did I say "every voter who votes for them is only doing so as a protest"?

Yep, obtuse.