The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

Quote

... deficit ...

14 hours ago, LJS said:

irrelevant after indpendence.

The deficit is irrelevant now.

After indy it means something and not nothing.

It means cuts like a tory on steroids.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

 

The deficit is irrelevant now.

After indy it means something and not nothing.

It means cuts like a tory on steroids.

Another morning of truly spectacular obfuscation and deflection from you, Neil. All to try and try and wriggle out of the fact that you have made claims about what N. Sturgeon & C. Numb have said that are entirely unsupported. 

The best defence is to repeatedly call comfy & myself liars. It's pretty sad 

Then just to round off the morning you misquote me to try & make out I said the deficit is irrelevant which of course I have never said. 

Making up what people say now appears to be your main debating strategy.

Edited March 7, 2017 by LJS

[eFestivals]

46 minutes ago, LJS said:

All to try and try and wriggle out of the fact that you have made claims about what N. Sturgeon

Comfy has made the same claim that Sturgeon said "Scotland is a country" in a discussion about English cities and the EU.

Comfy won't say why she said it, and despite admitting she said it, he presented loads of quotes about other things. He's either got the brain of slug or the lies of Trump.
(I don't believe anyone is that thick, so there's another thing shared with Trump)

It's comfy and you that are wriggling running from the facts like chickens.

Edited March 7, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

47 minutes ago, LJS said:

The best defence is to repeatedly call comfy & myself liars. It's pretty sad 

I don't need to call you liars if you don't lie - which you've both spent the last two weeks doing almost exclusively here.

Why not actually face some facts rather than run from them? We were having a lovely discussion about the deficit, but now you've gone very quiet. How very odd.

 

47 minutes ago, LJS said:

Then just to round off the morning you misquote me to try & make out I said the deficit is irrelevant which of course I have never said. 

 

yep, you definitely didn't say that having £9bn less of spending money was "irrelevant after independence". 

FFS.

18 hours ago, eFestivals said:

And that 6%-7% deficit will *NEVER* disappear while funding comes from Westminster to Scotland with the Barnett supplement - because it's caused by the greater revenues from the Barnett supplement (which guarantees Scotland a greater amount than the UK average per-head spend), and is maintained by the SG's spending of that Barnett supplement.

17 hours ago, LJS said:

also irrelevant after indpendence.

[eFestivals]

56 minutes ago, LJS said:

Making up what people say now appears to be your main debating strategy.

In a conversation about the EU and EWnglish cities and the possibility of a special deal for some areas, Sturgeon said "Scotland is a country".

I'f I've made that up so has comfy, who said he saw it himself.

All I'm asking is what relevance that statement of Sturgeon had in that conversation. Neither of you want to say.

How very odd.

I can make up that you're thick as pigshit, or I can state the truth that you know I'm right and you're choosing to lie.

Edited March 7, 2017 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Comfy has made the same claim that Sturgeon said "Scotland is a country" in a discussion about English cities and the EU.

 

 

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

In a conversation about the EU and EWnglish cities and the possibility of a special deal for some areas, Sturgeon said "Scotland is a country".

I'f I've made that up so has comfy, who said he saw it himself.

 

This is getting very tedious so I will respectfully ask you one final time to not repeat this drivel.

I have already provided the actual transcript of the interview between Andrew Marr and NS that I referenced. I have highlighted the bit in red where NS said the exact words Scotland is a Country and provided the link to the transcript in full.

In an attempt to put an end to this nonsense I also provided a handful of other articles where NS specifically mentions England, Wales, specific Cities. Her tone and words are the polar opposite of the blood and soil hate fuelled garbage that you claim she said. In fact she speaks of friendship and respect. I`ve posted all of it twice now and can only suggest you read it through in a moment of calm. As I have said more than once, her words, thats the ones she actually said, are there for all to see....as are yours despite your amusing claims that they are the wrong quotes.

You would love it if she lowered herself to the level you drag this debate down to with claims of facism and hatred. Fortunately she doesn`t see it like that ( read the articles ) and neither do I. It`s clear that you do which is a shame but not surprising since you base your claims on what you read under newspaper articles. That can be a hate fuelled place full of insults which I tend to avoid. 

Idiots on both sides etc.

 

[eFestivals]

33 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

This is getting very tedious so I will respectfully ask you one final time to not repeat this drivel.

 

The "drivel" that you've admitted to hearing....?

Liar liar pants on fire.

(there's a better quote of yours somewhere, which makes it clearer what you're referring to, which I'll find if need be, if you keep up with the lies )

On 2/20/2017 at 8:42 PM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As I have previously posted, NS was talking about Scotland`s voice being heard within the Brexit negotiations. When asked why Scotland should have a seat at the table when ( City in England ) also voted remain she spoke about Scotland being a Country where all 32 regions voted to remain.

How much of Scotland voted for brexit isn't of any relevance. Whether Scotland is a country or not isn't of any relevance to whether any part of the UK should get a special deal with the EU

The only point of any relevance in that discussion was whether any part of the UK should try to get a special deal from the EU. Saying "Scotland is a country" is meaningless within that discussion. 

In the civic world, there is only self-determination. Country/city/town/arsehole means fuck all.

Unless .... the fact of Scotland being "a country" means something extra, that gives it greater rights.

So tell me, why did Sturgeon say "Scotland is a country" in that discussion? You know, the one you've admitted to hearing? The one you've been lying about today and saying you didn't hear?

Edited March 7, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

38 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I have already provided the actual transcript of the interview between Andrew Marr and NS that I referenced. I have highlighted the bit in red where NS said the exact words Scotland is a Country and provided the link to the transcript in full.

 

except it does no such thing. The PDF referenced doesn't even have the words "scotland is a country" within it.

 

 

[eFestivals]

41 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I also provided a handful of other articles where NS specifically mentions England, Wales, specific Cities. Her tone and words are the polar opposite of the blood and soil hate fuelled garbage that you claim she said. In fact she speaks of friendship and respect.

and if all people of the UK are equal, what does "Scotland is a country" have to do with anything?

She'd be saying "the UK is a country" if she believed everyone in the UK is equal.

It's not anything friendly to believe yourself as better or with greater rights only due to a fact of blood and soil tribal history.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

In a conversation about the EU and EWnglish cities and the possibility of a special deal for some areas, Sturgeon said "Scotland is a country".

I'f I've made that up so has comfy, who said he saw it himself.

All I'm asking is what relevance that statement of Sturgeon had in that conversation. Neither of you want to say.

How very odd.

I can make up that you're thick as pigshit,  

You regularly do.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

or I can state the truth that you know I'm right

That's funny.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

and you're choosing to lie.

You have yet to point out one lie.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I don't need to call you liars if you don't lie - which you've both spent the last two weeks doing almost exclusively here.

Why not actually face some facts rather than run from them? We were having a lovely discussion about the deficit, but now you've gone very quiet. How very odd.

 

 

yep, you definitely didn't say that having £9bn less of spending money was "irrelevant after independence". 

FFS.

 

 

 

I have been very clear that the deficit is relevant. I have been equally clear that post-Indy, the deficit gap becomes irrelevant.

I know it's hard for you to understand.

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, LJS said:

I have been very clear that the deficit is relevant. I have been equally clear that post-Indy, the deficit gap becomes irrelevant.

the deficit and the deficit gap are the same things said in different ways. :rolleyes:

If its relevant it needs addressing, by saying what spending will be cut &/or what taxes will be raised.

(you can't even claim that growth will sort it now you've extended that to 20+ years before it sorts it).

I keep asking and never get an answer, apart from you dismissing it all as irrelevant.

[eFestivals]

So tell me comfy, why did Sturgeon say "Scotland is a country" in that discussion? You know, the one you've admitted to hearing? The one you've been lying about today and saying you didn't hear?

Saying it's a fact and that's why she says it isn't it. It's also fact that I'm over 6 foot tall and my missus isn't, and that would be as relevant. What Scotland's status is has no relevance to whether it might get a special EU deal via the UK.

So why did Sturgeon say "Scotland is a country?" in that discussion?

[eFestivals]

On 2/21/2017 at 8:56 PM, comfortablynumb1910 said:

NS: Don’t disregard Scotland because it’s not acceptable to do so. You said during the independence referendum that Scotland was then a full partner in the UK. It’s now time to prove that and how you respond to the sensible compromise consensus proposals that the Scottish government has put forward will tell as much, possibly everything we need to know about whether Scotland really is an equal partner or whether that’s just rhetoric.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/08011701.pdf

talking of which....

(hey chick-chick-chick-chickens  ... can you answer these questions, or will you run away scared?)

Whatever May might have said is of no relevance to the questions below. These questions are very-specifically about what Sturgeon has said......

(and you can't dispute these words, as Comfy provided them )

 

Do either of you think that Scotland should be "an equal partner in the UK"?

If so, why do you think 1/10th of the population should be as important as 9/10th of people? What makes Scottish people ten times more important than people in Wales, NI & England?

And if you think it should be an equal partner, care to tell me how having some people with more importance than other is the equality you reckon Scotland is better at?

And if you don't think it should be an equal partner, will you call out Sturgeon as not a champion of equality, but instead a champion of believing people in Scotland are more important than others within the UK?

(hey chick-chick-chick-chickens  ... can you answer these questions, or will you run away scared?)

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

except it does no such thing. The PDF referenced doesn't even have the words "scotland is a country" within it.

 

 

Let's take this one step at a time. Are you saying that NS did not say " Scotland is a Country " in the interview with Marr ?

Please be specific if you could. In a genuine attempt to correct you can I point out she was on Marr atleast twice in quick succession. 

Im now on my phone but the quotes I reposted earlier had her words in red. The colour but not wording was originally posted by me in February. I'm not going round in circles here but if you are again accusing me of lying then happy to take the time to clear this up.

Can I ask that you don't give me some smoke and mirrors routine about pdfs. I have quoted her words from an article that you could easily google.

As a courtesy you could have done that before making the attached post and making yourself look silly by calling me a liar.

I quoted 100s if not 1000s of words from NS earlier around this subject. The fact you now appear to have read them is progress.

The tone is nothing like how you describe it. The poison and hatred is in your own mind :-)

She quite clearly talks about working together for all our benefit etc and respects the way the majority of people in England and Wales voted.

All this has nothing to do with blood and soil. Just like your original rants about it being about oil, then it was greed, then it was hatred of England now it's blood and soil. Soon it will be something else.

Im still hopeful you'll come to our efest Independence Party date to be confirmed.  I'm now convinced NS isn't going to bottle it.

 

[Comfy Bean]

May or Brown or Dave said something about us leading the uk not leaving it.

Folk have talked about being equal partners.

NS has talked about our voice being heard.

Neil, before you start off on one again. Why not google these form of words and see if they are being said by people on both sides of the argument. Might save us all, but mostly you, a bit of hassle.

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Let's take this one step at a time. Are you saying that NS did not say " Scotland is a Country " in the interview with Marr ?

you posted some words (in the post I linked to) which have those words within it, but the link you put underneath does not.

I'm thinking nothing more about it than it being an innocent error, but I wanted to read the full context of the original, and i couldn't because the words you quoted are not in thew PDF you linked to.

(and further, the words you quoted return no results from google, either - just to demonstrate that I tried to follow it up despite your error)

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

May or Brown or Dave said something about us leading the uk not leaving it.

Folk have talked about being equal partners.

Yep, but my question was about Sturgeon's words, not anyone else's.  There's no need to talk about the origin of the idea Sturgeon was putting forwards. 

Sturgeon putting forwards her own idea. I asked a question about what Sturgeon said, no one else.

(but if you want to say that Sturgeon has no brain of her own and merely repeats tories mindlessly as her campaign for indy, you can say it in full to avoid my question )

 

Quote

NS has talked about our voice being heard.

And fuck me, can we hear it.

 

Quote

Neil, before you start off on one again. Why not google these form of words and see if they are being said by people on both sides of the argument. Might save us all, but mostly you, a bit of hassle.

I've got my own brain. 

Have you got your own? or are you only allowed to think what others have told you you're allowed to think?

Sturgeon claimed "equal partner". If Scotland is an equal partner, the say of everyone in Scotland is worth about ten times as much as the say of anyone else in the UK, and isn't equality.

You need to tell me how someone who is claiming some people should have ten times the say is someone who believes in equality.

Edited March 7, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

51 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yep, but my question was about Sturgeon's words, not anyone else's.  There's no need to talk about the origin of the idea Sturgeon was putting forwards. 

Sturgeon putting forwards her own idea. I asked a question about what Sturgeon said, no one else.

(but if you want to say that Sturgeon has no brain of her own and merely repeats tories mindlessly as her campaign for indy, you can say it in full to avoid my question )

 

And fuck me, can we hear it.

 

I've got my own brain. 

Have you got your own? or are you only allowed to think what others have told you you're allowed to think?

Sturgeon claimed "equal partner". If Scotland is an equal partner, the say of everyone in Scotland is worth about ten times as much as the say of anyone else in the UK, and isn't equality.

You need to tell me how someone who is claiming some people should have ten times the say is someone who believes in equality.

This load of absolutely desperate nonsense stemmed from you asking how sturgeon claiming that Scotland is a country has anything civic about it. Comfy and myself have had the courtesy to reply to your question on numerous occasions and in considerable detail. Despite this you have continued to claim with ever increasing desperation that we haven't answered your question.

In contrast, you have provided absolutely nothing to back up your claim that her statement implies a belief in some ancient tribal right (no doubt linked to blood and soil.) Indeed you have been unable even to find a link to her saying what you claim.

I have to congratulate you on a truly spectacular display of pig-headed stubbornness.

For myself, as you have been unable to produce a shred of evidence to support your case, which appears to rely entirely on your constant assertion of a claim that Sturgeon's words possess a meaning only understood by you, I consider this matter closed and declare myself and Comfy the unopposed winners.

Happy to reopen the discussion if you are able to provide any evidence.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Yep, but my question was about Sturgeon's words, not anyone else's.  There's no need to talk about the origin of the idea Sturgeon was putting forwards. 

Sturgeon putting forwards her own idea. I asked a question about what Sturgeon said, no one else.

(but if you want to say that Sturgeon has no brain of her own and merely repeats tories mindlessly as her campaign for indy, you can say it in full to avoid my question )

 

And fuck me, can we hear it.

 

I've got my own brain. 

Have you got your own? or are you only allowed to think what others have told you you're allowed to think?

Sturgeon claimed "equal partner". If Scotland is an equal partner, the say of everyone in Scotland is worth about ten times as much as the say of anyone else in the UK, and isn't equality.

You need to tell me how someone who is claiming some people should have ten times the say is someone who believes in equality.

No one is making any such claim. No one is saying the entire UK should remain in the EU because Scotland voted to stay. Some people are saying that there is no UK mandate to take us out of the single market. Some people are also saying that, particularly given the many fine words were said about how much Scotland was valued & respected during the indyref, some serious consideration of, and a considered response to Scotland's proposals for preserving some of its links with the EU would seem reasonable to expect.

No doubt we will hear similar claims of how Scotland is an equal partner in the union during indyref2. I suspect this time round they may be met with rather more scepticism.

Edited March 7, 2017 by LJS

[LJS]

Neil, as you have clearly failed to understand what the Scottish independence movement is all about and me and comfy, despite our best efforts have failed to convince you of the error of your ways. I have decided to do something that I have so far deliberately avoided doing & post something by my eldest son. He has contributed regularly to the Indy debate and indeed the wider political debate in Scotland.

His latest blog gets to the heart of what the Indy movement is all about and indeed addresses some of the claims you have made about it.

I am happy to assume that you will think him a moronic English hating idiot, probably caused by the family head punching sessions, so I'd prefer it of you didn't tell me that. 

Enjoy.

"That many people can’t be bothered understanding Scottish nationalism is perhaps inevitable. Over the past decade the rise of the SNP has been so rapid and so unlooked for the experience has been far more easily dismissed than explained. For many, it can be written off as one great regression towards some kind of tribal past..."

http://newsnet.scot/archive/scotland-must-move-beyond-britain-understand-past/

 

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

This load of absolutely desperate nonsense stemmed from you asking how sturgeon claiming that Scotland is a country has anything civic about it. Comfy and myself have had the courtesy to reply to your question on numerous occasions and in considerable detail. Despite this you have continued to claim with ever increasing desperation that we haven't answered your question.

because you haven't. You've talked round it from every angle, but have never said what relevance "Scotland is a country" has to a discussion about which parts of the UK might get (might have got) a special EU deal.

You can keep on posting this avoidance bullshit or you can answer the question. Every time you go for the bullshit. :roilleyes:

 

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

In contrast, you have provided absolutely nothing to back up your claim that her statement implies a belief in some ancient tribal right (no doubt linked to blood and soil.) Indeed you have been unable even to find a link to her saying what you claim.

*IF* she'd have done what I'm saying I've seen her do, what relevance does "Scotland is a country" have to whether Scotland or any other part of the UK might get a special EU deal?

The only relevance in saying that is to try to claim a greater right than others. A greater right based on Scotland's past as a sovereign nation. A past that was blood and soil.

 

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

I have to congratulate you on a truly spectacular display of pig-headed stubbornness.

says the man who's spent a week lying about Khan and avoiding all questions ... just as this whole post is yet another attempt to bury yit all by making the discussion about me and not about Scotland.

You think you're clever but you're sooooo transparent! :lol:

 

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

For myself, as you have been unable to produce a shred of evidence to support your case, which appears to rely entirely on your constant assertion of a claim that Sturgeon's words possess a meaning only understood by you, I consider this matter closed and declare myself and Comfy the unopposed winners.

Happy to reopen the discussion if you are able to provide any evidence.

comfy has the evidence, we're beyond the evidence.

And for two weeks i've been trying to get you and him to say what that evidence shows, by saying what relevance it has. 

You're only the winner at scaredy-cat school.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

as you have clearly failed to understand what the Scottish independence movement is all about

PMSL

I know what it's about. It's all about the money, which is why you won't talk about the money or lie about the money.

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

you posted some words (in the post I linked to) which have those words within it, but the link you put underneath does not.

I'm thinking nothing more about it than it being an innocent error, but I wanted to read the full context of the original, and i couldn't because the words you quoted are not in thew PDF you linked to.

(and further, the words you quoted return no results from google, either - just to demonstrate that I tried to follow it up despite your error)

OK, that is fair enough 

I`ll have a look back later and get back to you on this.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

Neil, as you have clearly failed to understand what the Scottish independence movement is all about and me and comfy, despite our best efforts have failed to convince you of the error of your ways. I have decided to do something that I have so far deliberately avoided doing & post something by my eldest son. He has contributed regularly to the Indy debate and indeed the wider political debate in Scotland.

His latest blog gets to the heart of what the Indy movement is all about and indeed addresses some of the claims you have made about it.

I am happy to assume that you will think him a moronic English hating idiot, probably caused by the family head punching sessions, so I'd prefer it of you didn't tell me that. 

Enjoy.

"That many people can’t be bothered understanding Scottish nationalism is perhaps inevitable. Over the past decade the rise of the SNP has been so rapid and so unlooked for the experience has been far more easily dismissed than explained. For many, it can be written off as one great regression towards some kind of tribal past..."

http://newsnet.scot/archive/scotland-must-move-beyond-britain-understand-past/

 

I see he thinks Khan linked Nats to racism too.  Seeing as you've already said that Khan did no such thing, perhaps tell kiddo to drop the lies?

I see he lies about the money too - truly his father's child  - by claiming a "lack of interest that the British establishment takes in its peripheral outposts". Such a lack of interest that Scotland is given the most money in the UK. :lol:

And he claims "to have been colonised". PMSL

And he claims a special type of English xenophobia of Scotland on the periphery, but of course there can be nothing like that from those who rant about the distant Westminster. Scots are special after all. :lol: