The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

Nice to see project fear 2 up and running on here.

just truth, and only truth.

Where's the plan? Nicola says she has a plan, but can't say what it is. How odd.

[lost]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

. currency. The EU will require at least 5 years of operation of a sovereign Scottish currency & central bank, while also wanting an absolutely-unbreakable commitment to join the Euro (while the snippers who want to believe themselves perfect europeans reckon they can mug the EU about that one :lol:)

This is the bit that I just can't see people voting for. I believe it was the older generation who voted to stay last time. Someone with a fixed pension who has deskilled themselves and so can't go back to work for a top up voting to have their income converted into a currency with no history in the bond or exchange markets and then into another currency again five years after that without any clue what their purchasing power will be at the end of it.

[gary1979666]

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

Nice to see project fear 2 up and running on here.

Would you not think the validity of claims of being able to stay in the EU should be checked?  It's not scaremongering to fact check the claims. 

I'm pretty sure you'd have a similar view to me about the £350m claims on the side of the Brexit bus.  Would poo pooing those claims be classed as project fear?  No, didn't think so.

I'm up for a healthy debate on this - (note, not one like the last few pages with you and Neil).  To accept NS's words on all this as gospel is pretty naïve.  How do you see iScot staying in the EU?

[LJS]

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

just truth, and only truth.

Where's the plan? Nicola says she has a plan, but can't say what it is. How odd.

You'll just have to be patient, Neil. Don't worry, I am confident you will find reasons to rip it to shreds when it appears.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, lost said:

This is the bit that I just can't see people voting for. I believe it was the older generation who voted to stay last time. Someone with a fixed pension who has deskilled themselves and so can't go back to work for a top up voting to have their income converted into a currency with no history in the bond or exchange markets and then into another currency again five years after that without any clue what their purchasing power will be at the end of it.

the lie to get around that one is that "the UK will keep paying Scottish pensions, they've promised".

Closely followed by "we want our oldies to die if they won't vote indy, that's because Scotland is a more-carey-sharey country than the countries which don't wish death on their fellow citizens".

They look like piss takes, don't they? Too sadly, they're some of the strongest pro-indy arguments snippers put forwards.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

You'll just have to be patient, Neil. Don't worry, I am confident you will find reasons to rip it to shreds when it appears.

That's because there's no viable plan that can be made, as you know yourself.

That 'better' indy Scotland will be one which makes tory cuts look like a spending spree.

Edited March 13, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

To accept NS's words on all this as gospel is pretty naïve

She's shrewd cookie. She's not actually said they'll be staying in the EU. She'll talk about a future in the EU, instead.

Too sadly, they'll be snippers everywhere guaranteeing it'll happen and telling their countrymen that it's guaranteed, in an attempt to win via that lie.

Winning via lies is their only hope.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

Would you not think the validity of claims of being able to stay in the EU should be checked?  It's not scaremongering to fact check the claims. 

PS: 

'project fear' is now all inconvenient facts

They can't be countered with stand-up facts, so they'll be dismissed with bullshit.

It worked for Trump, but apparently the SNP are nothing like Trump.

 

[eFestivals]

I'll be posting a collection of lies by snippers, so here's the frsist ones...

Quote

There's absolutely no requirement to use the Euro.
You need to educate yourself on this point.

Quote

"But won't the fact that you will need to reduce your budget deficit mean you'll have to put in place greater austerity measures than those already inflicted on the UK"

No. Glad to have helped your understanding on that.

 

And just for good measure, here's indy on the basis of blood & soil - which doesn't exist in Scotland, apparently -  with endless people claiming a greater 'civic' (snigger) right because of a blood & soil past... 

Quote

This nonsense line is often trotted out as a reason not to allow Scotland a referendum post-Brexit, but Wandsworth is not a country involved in a union with rUK. Scotland is. So a false comparison on your part.

From the comments, here:-
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/nicola-sturgeon-fires-starting-gun-on-second-scottish-independence-referendum

Edited March 13, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

here's that "evidence" that was given to Holyrood's Europe Committee...

http://www.scottishlegal.com/2016/07/01/brussels-insiders-reveal-plans-to-preserve-scotlands-eu-membership-in-event-of-independence/#

Quote

If Scotland waits until nearly the end of the two years to say, ‘This isn’t okay and now we’re having an independence referendum’, you might not have had that and had time to have the negotiations with the rest of the UK on dissolving the union before the whole of the UK has left.

“So, it’s obviously a very big political judgement about whether and when to call an independence referendum. If it was only a question of logic, you would call it as soon as possible in my view.

“You would call it, let’s say, by next summer because then you would have actually had the dissolution talks – if it was successful – with the UK before the UK left. That would make it much easier for the EU to get into some of these transitional holding pen arrangements than otherwise.”

 

and

Quote

“If the idea of a successor state is that you want the opt-outs from the euro, the budget rebate, the opt-in deal on justice and home affairs, I don’t think that will be forthcoming.”

Edited March 13, 2017 by eFestivals

[lost]

Plaid asking for a referendum too now, even though the welsh voted to leave 

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, lost said:

Plaid asking for a referendum too now, even though the welsh voted to leave 

PMSL  .... at least Sturgeon is FM and actually has some support for her idiot plan.

 

[gary1979666]

Is there any polling on Welsh indy (Windy?)?  Curious to what is stands at.

[gary1979666]

1 minute ago, gary1979666 said:

Is there any polling on Welsh indy (Windy?)?  Curious to what is stands at.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29331475

A few years out of date, but worth a giggle.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29331475

A few years out of date, but worth a giggle.

yeah, exactly.

I might think Scottish indy is about the same idiocy as brexit times ten, but at least 6the person calling for it is the FM and has an electoral mandate for it.

I can't actually work out why Sturgeon has gone with it today, tho, unless it's another part of a game of bluff. There's absolutely no reason for her to go off half-cocked unless she's already decided she's going to lose but doesn't want to be both a loser and a bluffer.

Thing is, she's that losing bluffer for anything that happens apart from a win for indy. She might remain as the hero of snippers even if she loses, but the rest of the country will be laughing at her - so her political influence will be blown away and she'll be fuck all use for a greedy Scotland in asking for ever-more.

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29331475

A few years out of date, but worth a giggle.

PS: I'll give Ms Squeaky her dues, tho, and say at least Wales wouldn't be in as deep financial shit as Scotland if it went indy.

Tho only because for the last 40 years Scotland has screamed loudly enough to stop Wales getting its fair dues by demanding that Scotland keeps every penny it's been previously allocated whether it needs it or not.

Another example of that carey-sharey Scotland. They only care if the sharing is with them and not by them.

Edited March 13, 2017 by eFestivals

[gary1979666]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yeah, exactly.

I might think Scottish indy is about the same idiocy as brexit times ten, but at least 6the person calling for it is the FM and has an electoral mandate for it.

I can't actually work out why Sturgeon has gone with it today, tho, unless it's another part of a game of bluff. There's absolutely no reason for her to go off half-cocked unless she's already decided she's going to lose but doesn't want to be both a loser and a bluffer.

Thing is, she's that losing bluffer for anything that happens apart from a win for indy. She might remain as the hero of snippers even if she loses, but the rest of the country will be laughing at her - so her political influence will be blown away and she'll be fuck all use for a greedy Scotland in asking for ever-more.

I suppose if May does call a GE before Brexit/Scindy Ref, then she'll keep the message about indy, rather than about SNHS/Sc Schools/etc.  So could be a diversionary tactic.

[tolywoly]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I can't actually work out why Sturgeon has gone with it today, tho, unless it's another part of a game of bluff. There's absolutely no reason for her to go off half-cocked unless she's already decided she's going to lose but doesn't want to be both a loser and a bluffer.

Thing is, she's that losing bluffer for anything that happens apart from a win for indy. She might remain as the hero of snippers even if she loses, but the rest of the country will be laughing at her - so her political influence will be blown away and she'll be fuck all use for a greedy Scotland in asking for ever-more.

It's now or never. It's that simple I think. The circumstances are far from ideal for independence (Brexit hasn't turned out to be the wedge they'd hoped) but there;s no sign of them getting any more favourable. 

As I've said here before, campaigning for a No last time wasn't a very pleasant experience. I'm not looking forward to going through it again.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, tolywoly said:

It's now or never.

Well, I realise that Sturgeon has to follow thru on all she's spouted or look an idjut, but that's not what i was getting at.

What i meant was: why announce it today?

She could have waited a few more weeks, when a50 had been triggered, and when it would be logical to do it. There's no need to do it specifically today.

So why today? I can only think that it's a final attempt to get May to throw her a bone that she can use as an excuse for no ref.

She's been wanting that bone since about 1st July, after she realised she'd gone off half cocked the day after the EUref and backed herself in a corner via that.

So it's got to be about still wanting that bone. Nothing else makes sense.

[tolywoly]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

What i meant was: why announce it today?

She could have waited a few more weeks, when a50 had been triggered, and when it would be logical to do it. There's no need to do it specifically today.

So why today? I can only think that it's a final attempt to get May to throw her a bone that she can use as an excuse for no ref.

She's been wanting that bone since about 1st July, after she realised she'd gone off half cocked the day after the EUref and backed herself in a corner via that.

So it's got to be about still wanting that bone. Nothing else makes sense.

She wanted to get it in before the party conference. She couldn't do at conference and have her announcement accompanied by roaring party loyalists waving Yes2 saltires at her. Better to appear dignified and statesman like,

People assume Sturgeon doesn't actually want a ref. Of course she does. She just wants one under as favourable conditions as possible. If that's not now then when? Of course if it happens, the Scottish people would turn on the SNP once they saw the reality. But the job would have been done. The childhood dream realised. That's all that matters. 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, tolywoly said:

She wanted to get it in before the party conference. She couldn't do at conference and have her announcement accompanied by roaring party loyalists waving Yes2 saltires at her. Better to appear dignified and statesman like,

yep, that one had occurred to me too - tho I've seen it pointed out that she's got a speech booked in just after that, which those people expected her to announce.

But I guess doing it this way round she gets to use the conf as a platform, which may or may not work to her advantage.

12 minutes ago, tolywoly said:

People assume Sturgeon doesn't actually want a ref. Of course she does. She just wants one under as favourable conditions as possible. If that's not now then when? Of course if it happens, the Scottish people would turn on the SNP once they saw the reality. But the job would have been done. The childhood dream realised. That's all that matters. 

Of course she does - but only one that wins, and when there's the money there to pay for it.  If she has a ref and loses again, that's indy dead for 20+ years, if not forever.

I'm firmly of the opinion that she regrets her morning-after "highly likely, I'm instructing the SG" grandstanding, because while it was quite reasonable to assume an indy bounce on brexit, it's not turned out that way. Everything since has been about saving her career from being the girl who cried wolf too many times, and very little about what might be good for Scotland.

Unless May chucks her a bone so she avoids a ref that'll most-likely have the same career-ending effect, she's got to go for it because she has nothing to lose - so that part isn't a surprise to me. 

I reckon she's still hopeful that May might throw her a bone, tho. Sturgeon would be chewing in to it in seconds if May did do, and the ref would be off.

Because there's a final career twist - and that's that she'll be Scotland's eternal hate figure if she wins, and not 'mother of the nation'. There will be no forgiveness when Scots find out they've gone indy (if they do) on a catastrophic lie.

Me, if indy wins, I'm going into the pop-corn business. I reckon they'll be big sales in rUK.

(in all seriousness, I have no problem with the principle of Scottish indy, I just think that choosing an option ten times worse than brexit isn't the antidote to brexit, and that an indy Scotland cannot ever be the better country that some imagine today - because the [lack of] money is going to change everything. Change everything tory, on steroids, in fact)

 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, tolywoly said:

It's now or never. It's that simple I think. The circumstances are far from ideal for independence (Brexit hasn't turned out to be the wedge they'd hoped) but there;s no sign of them getting any more favourable. 

As I've said here before, campaigning for a No last time wasn't a very pleasant experience. I'm not looking forward to going through it again.

Yeah, it can't be pleasant delivering such a dismal, doom-laden message & talking Scotland down. The simple answer is to come and join the yes side . You know it makes sense. 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

Yeah, it can't be pleasant delivering such a dismal, doom-laden message & talking Scotland down. The simple answer is to come and join the yes side . You know it makes sense. 

"talking Scotland down" PMSL

Is that the indyref2 bat to use against all the awkward facts flying around?

Fuck me, you're turning into Trump.

 

[LJS]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I'll be posting a collection of lies by snippers, so here's the frsist ones...

 

And just for good measure, here's indy on the basis of blood & soil - which doesn't exist in Scotland, apparently -  with endless people claiming a greater 'civic' (snigger) right because of a blood & soil past... 

From the comments, here:-
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/nicola-sturgeon-fires-starting-gun-on-second-scottish-independence-referendum

May I suggest we keep BTL nutjobs out of this?

"No doubt when Alex Salmond is made a Prince Duke Lord and Sir by Queen Sturgeon he will have more medal than the General in North Korea 
With the same authoritarian discipline that is aplied to the SNP rolling out to the people of Scotland "

"Wee Nippy was frothing at the mouth this morning announcing neverendum2. She is a desperate woman absolutely determined to join the corrupt EU who don't want another basket case on their books."

 

"I will take the high road and you take the low road and I wont be able to get into Scotland because its an independent country what hates the English,,, before yeee!!

Ah well Bournemouth for holiday again.. Good luck this time skirt wearing cousins. Even though its a one question two answer test you should be able to get it right this time coz you have had a little practice two years ago."

 

 

[brandycoke]

 

2 hours ago, tolywoly said:

It's now or never. It's that simple I think. The circumstances are far from ideal for independence (Brexit hasn't turned out to be the wedge they'd hoped) but there;s no sign of them getting any more favourable. 

As I've said here before, campaigning for a No last time wasn't a very pleasant experience. I'm not looking forward to going through it again.

I didn't campaign, but just living in Scotland during the referendum  wasn't a very pleasant experience , and certainly not one that i'd care to go through again so soon.

Even yes voters that i've spoken to, are admitting that Sturgeon is going too far with this one.

Waltz straight into the EU after independence .