The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

4 minutes ago, brandycoke said:

 

I didn't campaign, but just living in Scotland during the referendum  wasn't a very pleasant experience , and certainly not one that i'd care to go through again so soon.

Even yes voters that i've spoken to, are admitting that Sturgeon is going too far with this one.

Waltz straight into the EU after independence .

 

Some of us don't see living in a post-Brexit perma-Tory,narrow minded, bigoted,  isolationist UK as a "very pleasant experience"

[Comfy Bean]

7 hours ago, zahidf said:

Maybe, or Scottish people are so pissed of over hard brexit and the fact the Torys will win in 2020 that they want away asap. 

 

Spot on. As has been discussed here already, the narrative will be around the type of Country we want Scotland to be.

So much for Sturgeon bluffing. There were those who said she would bottle it lol.

[Comfy Bean]

18 minutes ago, brandycoke said:

 

I didn't campaign, but just living in Scotland during the referendum  wasn't a very pleasant experience , and certainly not one that i'd care to go through again so soon.

 

Each to their own mate and obviously I'm not aware of your personal experience but I enjoyed the debate, the turnout and how engaged folk got, especially the youngsters. Credit due to both sides for that.

I saw more fighting and battles round my way in an hour yesterday afternoon than I did during the whole Indy campaign.

 

[brandycoke]

14 minutes ago, LJS said:

Some of us don't see living in a post-Brexit perma-Tory,narrow minded, bigoted,  isolationist UK as a "very pleasant experience"

I was referring to the referendum, something that actually happened.

Nicola Sturgeon is in grave danger of making Scotland look like the spoilt child that always gets its way.

[Comfy Bean]

7 hours ago, lost said:

This is the bit that I just can't see people voting for. I believe it was the older generation who voted to stay last time. Someone with a fixed pension who has deskilled themselves and so can't go back to work for a top up voting to have their income converted into a currency with no history in the bond or exchange markets and then into another currency again five years after that without any clue what their purchasing power will be at the end of it.

Good point. The Sunday Post had a poll at the weekend that showed the support amongst the over 70's running at 70/30 NO.

As we know, they auld yins also get their vote out. 

The YES side will have to hope they can mobilise the younger generations. 

Polls last week had it 50/50 so all to play for.

[brandycoke]

Even you'd have to admit that you're scraping the barrel with The Sunday Post .

 

[Comfy Bean]

4 minutes ago, brandycoke said:

I was referring to the referendum, something that actually happened.

Nicola Sturgeon is in grave danger of making Scotland look like the spoilt child that always gets its way.

Would you deny folk that live in Scotland the choice ?

Thats all Sturgeon is doing. Do you not agree with most on here that she has a mandate to give people that choice ?

Asking the question and having a debate around the type of Country we want to live in doesn't = looking like a spoilt child in my view.

Are you cool with us having general elections every 4 or 5 years ?

 

[Comfy Bean]

4 minutes ago, brandycoke said:

Even you'd have to admit that you're scraping the barrel with The Sunday Post .

 

I remember my Gran always getting it :-)

Are the broons still in it ?

Do you agree that the pensioner vote will be hugely in favour of No ?

Could make things difficult for YES as someone else described earlier, they seem unlikely to change sides and they get out and vote as we know.

[LJS]

1 minute ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I remember my Gran always getting it :-)

Are the broons still in it ?

Do you agree that the pensioner vote will be hugely in favour of No ?

Could make things difficult for YES as someone else described earlier, they seem unlikely to change sides and they get out and vote as we know.

it's OK comfy ... apparently we all want the oldies to die. The Cybernat death squads will shortly be mobilised.

On a serious note, I have some concerns about the nature of the debate this time although most of my concerns are about the tone of the debate coming from Politicians in favour of the Union. After the Orchestrated " I never said the SNP are racist" nonsense from Khan, I seriously hope we hear no more of this - there are enough nutjobs on both sides BTL. I really hope our elected politicians on both sides can maintain a higher standard.

[LJS]

8 hours ago, eFestivals said:

and the bullshit started in that speech....

 

Quote

 

Indeed, the Prime Minister herself has been clear that the Brexit process will see the UK government reserve for itself powers in areas that are currently wholly devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

 

 

 

because Scotland already has control of stuff that's handled by the EU that will return to Westminster?

Nope, it's not - else it would already be handled by Scotland, but it isn't.

 

Perhaps, you need a clearer understanding of how powers were divided under devolution

" In Scotland, a list of matters is explicitly reserved in the Scotland Act. Any matter not explicitly listed in the Act is implicitly devolved to the Scottish Parliament."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserved_and_excepted_matters

Amongst those "not explicitly listed" are agriculture & fisheries. Now much of the real power in these areas currently lies with Brussels. But with Brexit, that will cease and under the Scotland Act, it is clear that they should return to Holyrood. Responding to claims that the Tories woudl try & grab these powers back to Westminster, David Mundell sought to reassure...

 

Quote

David Mundell has further undermined Nicola Sturgeon’s claim that the UK Government is planning to use Brexit to stage a “power grab” on Holyrood by offering an “absolute guarantee” that it will get more responsibilities. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/01/david-mundell-guarantees-extra-scottish-powers-brexit/

 

Only for Theresa to whip the rug from under his feet a mere couple of days later..

Quote

 

While fully respecting, and indeed strengthening, the devolution settlements and the devolved administrations across the UK, we must unashamedly assert this fundamental responsibility on our part.

So in those reserved policy areas where we govern directly for the whole United Kingdom, we will explicitly look to the interests of the Union – both the parts and the whole – in our policy-making.

And in policy areas where responsibilities are devolved, we will look for ways to collaborate and work together with the devolved administrations to improve the outcomes for everyone.

http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2017/03/theresa-may-speech-to-scottish-conservative-conference/

 

Hard to know who to trust...

 

Only kidding, it is very very easy to know who to trust.

 

 

 

 

 

[LJS]

9 hours ago, russycarps said:

24 months of people bitterly arguing with their friends and family again up there. I feel sorry for the poor bastards  

 

 I feel sorry for you guys trying to stop the endless tide of racist bigoted intolerance sweeping your country. I'll happily take some honest and open debate about the sort of country we want to live in in exchange.

 

9 hours ago, eFestivals said:

PS: not forgetting, of course, that the Greens will be breaking their manifesto pledges if they back Sturgeon's call for a ref.

Cue a snipper to come in and argue that they're not, via an interpretation of those manifesto words that those words don't actually have.

Noting that you have kindly offered to post

 " a collection of lies by snippers,"

I will gladly and free of charge be offering the same service for baseless claims from you. The above is the first one. The greens are not breaking any manifesto pledge. here is what there 2016 Holyrood manifesto said.

 "With a turnout of 85%, the Independence Referendum affirmed a simple but often forgotten political truth: if people are invited to take part in an important decision about the future of their country, they will – and in huge numbers. But that spirit will wither away unless citizens are again invited to play a direct role in public decision-making. We want to create a radical and inclusive democracy that puts citizens at the heart of the democratic process, both at local and national level.

In a second referendum the Scottish Greens will campaign for independence. Until then we can build a bolder democracy, and open up our institutions for greater citizen participation while pushing for stronger powers for Holyrood."

https://greens.scot/scotland-can/be-a-bolder-democracy

I think it is important that you make sure of your facts, Neil, since you set great store by them.

As you yourself said

"Get ready for endless bullshit and diversion from the facts, proper Trump styleee."

 

[russycarps]

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

 I feel sorry for you guys trying to stop the endless tide of racist bigoted intolerance sweeping your country. I'll happily take some honest and open debate about the sort of country we want to live in in exchange.

 

 

Yep because your nationalist campaign is completely tolerant right

I just feel sorry for the poor souls who are going to suffer because of your rabid nationalism

That's it.

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

7 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I'll be posting a collection of lies.....

Who knew :-)

Feels a tad early for me personally but you could see it coming over the recent weeks and months.

Any new thoughts on why she didn't bottle it as some claimed.

mori saying 3 polls in the last few weeks have seen support increase. Yes roughly 20pts up on where they started last time round. 

Hopefully I'll feel more confident in a year or so. 

 

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Yep because your nationalist campaign is completely tolerant right

No of course its not, There are nutters on both sides. it is however based on tolerance and respect. 

6 minutes ago, russycarps said:

I just feel sorry for the poor souls who are going to suffer because of your rabid nationalism

I don't have any rabid nationalism,  I do however feel sorry for the poor souls who are going to suffer for the Tories' rabid nationalism. 

6 minutes ago, russycarps said:

That's it.

 

Ooh, i so hope you are right 

 

[LJS]

[brandycoke]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Each to their own mate and obviously I'm not aware of your personal experience but I enjoyed the debate, the turnout and how engaged folk got, especially the youngsters. Credit due to both sides for that.

I saw more fighting and battles round my way in an hour yesterday afternoon than I did during the whole Indy campaign.

 

Glad you enjoyed the debate mate, i enjoyed it too, such a shame that we were lied to about the "Once in a generation" thing though, and have to go through another farcical shitstorm.

Why were you fighting  btw?

[LJS]

In a shock development, i agree with most of what Severin Carrell says...

And for Neil it underlines my point about EU powers returning to Scotland ... or not

 

 

 

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, brandycoke said:

Glad you enjoyed the debate mate, i enjoyed it too, such a shame that we were lied to about the "Once in a generation" thing though, and have to go through another farcical shitstorm.

Why were you fighting  btw?

are you for real? There was a football match on yesterday in Glasgow which every time it happens causes much more violence than the entire Indy campaign. I will be absolutely passionate in my belief that both sides should respect each others views and indeed, I'll go further and say that if Yes supporters insult their opponents, they will lose this vote. 

You don't persuade someone to change their mind by insulting them.

Edited March 13, 2017 by LJS

[Comfy Bean]

[LJS]

I notice Theresa May accused the SNP of tunnel vision

 

Neat response here

 

[Comfy Bean]

10 minutes ago, brandycoke said:

Glad you enjoyed the debate mate, i enjoyed it too, such a shame that we were lied to about the "Once in a generation" thing though, and have to go through another farcical shitstorm.

Why were you fighting  btw?

I did enjoy it. Being given a choice isn't a farcical shitstorm in my opinion. I wasn't fighting, Did you enjoy the game ?

As I've said on here for a while, I personally would have held off till after the next Tory election procession and brexit has fully kicked in.

The Greens have just confirmed their support so it's happening unless the Torys block it which I can't see.

Hopefully Patrick Harvie will again play a big part for the YES side.

[brandycoke]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

are you for real? There was a football match on yesterday in Glasgow which every time it happens causes much more violence than the entire Indy campaign. I will be absolutely passionate in my belief that both sides should respect each others views and indeed, I'll go further and say that if Yes supporters insult their opponents, they will lose this vote. 

You don't persuade someone to change their mind by insulting them.

Who did i insult?

Sometimes we need to take a really hard look at ourselves, and then try and see how others see us.

It's really hard to take someone seriously when they keep posting stupid pics that they've nicked off the internet.

6 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I did enjoy it. Being given a choice isn't a farcical shitstorm in my opinion. I wasn't fighting, Did you enjoy the game ?

As I've said on here for a while, I personally would have held off till after the next Tory election procession and brexit has fully kicked in.

The Greens have just confirmed their support so it's happening unless the Torys block it which I can't see.

Hopefully Patrick Harvie will again play a big part for the YES side.

Passive agressive, i see what you did there.

Least you won't need another "Yes" sticker for your car, as i'm fairly sure you and yer mate still have the originals.

[LJS]

Just now, brandycoke said:

Who did i insult?

No one. Apologies if you misread my point, I did not accuse you of insulting anyone.  Ispecifically spoke about Yes supporters insulting their opponents and how that is a guaranteed way for yes to lose again. (it works the other way too)

Just now, brandycoke said:

Sometimes we need to take a really hard look at ourselves, and then try and see how others see us.

I thoroughly agree with this.

Just now, brandycoke said:

It's really hard to take someone seriously when they keep posting stupid pics that they've nicked off the internet.

If you look at my posts a very small proportion fit that bill. I would be very happy for you to ignore them & engage with me on the serious points which make up 90% of my posts . 

Just now, brandycoke said:

Passive agressive, i see what you did there.

Least you won't need another "Yes" sticker for your car, as i'm fairly sure you and yer mate still have the originals.

Comfy, as ever, was being eminently reasonable and I'm not quite sure what prompted this response. 

I have all my yes badges & stickers etc etc ... haven't brought them back out yet... yet. Although just to be clear, I don't own a flag.

Can I ask, brandy, what is the main thing that makes you think remaining in the UK offers the best future for Scotland?

 

 

[LJS]

Is this what the BBC has come to?

Although in fairness they have divided Britain with Scotland closer to Europe & England close to the USA

[Comfy Bean]

11 minutes ago, brandycoke said:

 

Passive agressive, i see what you did there.

Least you won't need another "Yes" sticker for your car, as i'm fairly sure you and yer mate still have the originals.

I didn't get a sticker or a badge :-(

I just asked you if you enjoyed the game !?

You originally mentioned how living in Scotland during the last campaign wasn't a very pleasant experience. How so ?

On Sunday, I saw a lot of fists and bottles getting thrown. It wasn't very pleasant. During the campaign I saw some eggs getting chucked at Jimbo.

Ive already said that credit is due to both sides and I hope that continues. How was your experience different ?