The Dirty Independence Question

[lost]

10 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

Can't believe how bad things have got in the space of an afternoon.

Anyone would think that you were just picking numbers out the sky and applying them to an unknown point in the future.

Of course that would be a little silly.

I think a hard road will lie ahead for an Indy Scotland but I don't imagine we will be returning to the caves lol

Maybe I can help? The difference is explained here on everyone's favourite blog:

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/the-9bn-fiscal-transfer-vs-15bn-gers.html

[russycarps]

Hang on guys I've cracked it, how about Joxit??

Hello?? Anyone??

[LJS]

1 hour ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Terrific article in today's Guardian by Vonny Moyes. She's pretty much summed up my current feelings word for word;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/14/scottish-independence-referendum-snp-vote-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Whilst I don't by any means agree with every word in this article. I agree with much more than I disagree with.The following bits particularly chimed with me

Quote

 

"My political leanings haven’t changed, I’m still pro-independence. I still believe in the earnest arguments for a better future – but to give this another go, it needs to be different ... This campaign can’t afford to run on big dreams – the context has changed. This vote is no longer about going it alone, but about hanging on to what the rest of the UK rejected. It’s not a hearts and minds job – facts and figures must peal loudly above the rhetoric.

...

I still believe we can do it, and know we can make robust arguments – it’s incumbent on us yes voters to insist on them. We must demand rigour in these plans. If this is now the best option to mitigate Brexit, we need clarity on why that is and how it will look. We need unequivocal answers on currency, pensions, national debt, immigration, the single market, academic funding – the stuff of real life, because you can’t build a better country on pretty words. If this is the best for everyone, demand the best from the argument and do it for everyone – not just those inclined to vote like you. We must ask questions. We must seek clarity. We must know what shape the proposed future will take.

And please – to my fellow yes supporters – engage empathy and be kind to no voters. We don’t need more division, so don’t widen the schism now. Viewing everything through the prism of their previous vote will get us nowhere, so if we must have a referendum, I pray it’s one without Yoons and Nats. We’re all just people trying to make an informed decision about our future. This cannot afford to be us v them. Whichever way it goes, we need to be a nation on the other side, whether hemmed to the UK or not.

 

 

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As I said, I support the end of Barnett. If it's put on the table and people vote to stay in the union then I don't think that's fair on the no voters to then scrap it.

Do you think Barnett should be scrapped ?

I think there is a direction of travel from the Tories on Barnett and the consequentials.

Do you think Scotland shits on Wales ?

I think Wales should have more. If Scotland lose out to make up Wales shortfall, I think that can be easily justified in terms of fairness. 

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Liar liar pants on fire. Lies are all you have.

I pointed out that she was bottling it for all the time she wasn't doing it. It's not like the SNP need a reason to call an indyref anyway, as wanting one is their default position.

And again: Liar liar pants on fire. Lies are all you have.

PS she hasn't actually done anything yet, btw. She said she wants one. An SNP leader wants one. Is it even news, really?

How old are you, again?

[Comfy Bean]

12 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think Wales should have more. If Scotland lose out to make up Wales shortfall, I think that can be easily justified in terms of fairness. 

I think we've cracked it then. Scotland walk away. England are loaded with xxbillions in the pocket, give it to Wales. Sorted. You didn't answer about whether you think Scotland is shitting on Wales. Do you think this was a fair assessment?

[Comfy Bean]

22 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Hang on guys I've cracked it, how about Joxit??

Hello?? Anyone??

Not bad. Needs more work but an improvement.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, lost said:

Well firstly the interesting thing about that article and those like around 4 years ago it are that Salmond doesn't think the Scottish would be stupid enough to vote for indy with out significant oil revenues. i guess we may see if he has over estimated his countrymen?

Secondly your opinion doesn't seem to match that of the Shetlanders in the article?

There is one Shetlander quoted in that article, Tavish Scott former leader of the Scottish Libdems and son of John Scott

Quote

 

Lord Lieutenant of Shetland John Scott has been knighted in the Queen’s Birthday Honours List.

Sir John, as he will now be known, was honoured thanks to his role as Lord Lieutenant, the Queen’s representative in Shetland. He is now a Knight Commander of the Victorian Order (KCVO), a personal honour bestowed by the Queen rather than a political honour, which would go through the Prime Minister.

http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2011/06/11/lord-lieutenant-of-shetland-knighted-in-queens-birthday-honours-list

 

I assume you do not know Shetland. Let me assure you Tavish is, in no sense of the word a typical Shetlander.

 

1 hour ago, lost said:

I guess alot has happened in the last 4 years. Sturgeon has had the power to raise taxes say closer to the Norwegian rate but has chosen not to. If Shetlanders see themselves as Norwegian

They don't really. They like to celebrate their Viking roots but there is no real sense in which they consider themselves as modern day Norwegians.

1 hour ago, lost said:

I guess they would be more racially socialist than the Scots.

I'm not sure what that means.

1 hour ago, lost said:

Who could blame them if they wanted to escape SNP austerity and the corrupt cess pit that is holyrood?

They don't know what austerity is. Due to their oil fund they have a level of public services the rest of the UK can only dream of. Unemployment consistently way lower than the UK & high wages add to the mix.

1 hour ago, lost said:

 Obviously its not because they hate the Scottish,

Correct, they don't. 

1 hour ago, lost said:

they would still allow the Scots to trader with them, have an open border, cover their nato contributions and even pay off their share of the national debt from when they were part of Scotland, its just that they are better sorry different people who need to make their own way in life.

They aren't & they don't.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, lost said:

Yep different country till the 15th century. Scandinavian roots.They are definitely politically different.. Lib dem, whilst Scotland votes Snp or Tory mainly. It's not fair on them not having their voice heard when Scotland keeps voting Snp or Tory and Shetland doesn't have any Snp or Tory politicians at Holyrood

The Northern Isles have been solidly Liberal for my entire life. That being the case and knowing that they only have one msp each  (one for Orkney & one for Shetland - you do know that I take it as you appear to be an expert) its hardly surprising that they have no SNP or Tory Politicians at Holyrood. As an expert, you will also be aware that at the last Holyrood election the SNP came second with more than twice the combined vote of the Labour & Tory candidates. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by LJS

[LJS]

50 minutes ago, lost said:

Maybe I can help? The difference is explained here on everyone's favourite blog:

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/the-9bn-fiscal-transfer-vs-15bn-gers.html

I like that blog. Its the one that shows Scotland's onshore deficit (which I think we can all agree is what matters) decreasing by £1bn+ per year for the past 6 years. the only way is up.

I can supply links to the graphs if you haven't seen my earlier posts. Ithink they are in a post entitled somethign leike "gers explained in graphs."

Like Neil, Chokka sets great store by the "deficit gap" a figure which will be entirely meaningless once Scotland is independent. Or at least no more relevant than our deficit gap with Venezuela , New Zealand or Bahrain.

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by LJS

[pink_triangle]

35 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I think we've cracked it then. Scotland walk away. England are loaded with xxbillions in the pocket, give it to Wales. Sorted. You didn't answer about whether you think Scotland is shitting on Wales. Do you think this was a fair assessment?

I am pro the union and also pro Scotland.  I would however like a funding solution that treats a Welsh person as equal (not better or worse) I'm comparison to a Scottish one. I would have thought the Scottish people who are very keen to promote the importance of fairness to refugees and eu citizens would have no issue with this kind of equality. 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, russycarps said:

Hang on guys I've cracked it, how about Joxit??

Hello?? Anyone??

 

35 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Not bad. Needs more work but an improvement.

Nicksit?

Offscot?

Ecksit?

 

[Comfy Bean]

10 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I am pro the union and also pro Scotland.  I would however like a funding solution that treats a Welsh person as equal (not better or worse) I'm comparison to a Scottish one. I would have thought the Scottish people who are very keen to promote the importance of fairness to refugees and eu citizens would have no issue with this kind of equality. 

Fair enough. No view on a claim on here that Scotland is shitting on Wales ?

Wont ask again if you'd rather avoid this.

[Comfy Bean]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

Nicksit?

Offscot?

Ecksit?

 

Of the 3 I prefer ecksit. Did he not die a failure ?

Still think it needs more work.

[LJS]

8 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I am pro the union and also pro Scotland.  I would however like a funding solution that treats a Welsh person as equal (not better or worse) I'm comparison to a Scottish one. I would have thought the Scottish people who are very keen to promote the importance of fairness to refugees and eu citizens would have no issue with this kind of equality. 

Barnett always seemed to me to be a bit of a bribe for Scotland while Thatcher pissed North sea oil revenue up the wall to pay for the destruction of heavy industry & the unions while it could have made Scotland the Kuwait of the North.

Meanwhile in the mad panic that gripped Better Together in the last days of the last indyref, senior UK politicians fell over each other to outdo each other in their promises that Barnett would be protected. 

Unsurprisingly the SNP have held them to this bribe.

Like Comfy, i sincerely hope that we will release you from this terrible burden & allow your government to redistribute this money to the Welsh and the poor.

 

[pink_triangle]

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Fair enough. No view on a claim on here that Scotland is shitting on Wales ?

Wont ask again if you'd rather avoid this.

I wouldn't use that terminology, nor do I think it's helpful  I think it's selfish if a Scottish person thinks Scotland should be entitled to more money per head than Wales. However people by their nature are often selfish, so that's life.

[pink_triangle]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

 

Like Comfy, i sincerely hope that we will release you from this terrible burden & allow your government to redistribute this money to the Welsh and the poor.

 

The reality is the Welsh have very little in terms of bargaining chips. Their is little call for independence, so there's no need to offer bribes. 

[Comfy Bean]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

I wouldn't use that terminology, nor do I think it's helpful  

Agreed.

ive mentioned this before but just quickly again while we're on Wales.

Scotland has 1 Tory mp. I don't agree but understand that the Tories in power are not going to see Scotland as a priority when it comes to spending and investment decisions as they have nothing to lose vote wise. I'm guessing the same applies to Wales. This is unfair but understandable if your a Tory government looking to stay in power.

Theres way more at play here than Barnett numbers and the consequentials are a bit smoke and mirrors for me.

The latest Tory budget had extra spending for NHS in England. Do you have a figure for the consequential payment heading for Wales ?

[pink_triangle]

4 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Agreed.

ive mentioned this before but just quickly again while we're on Wales.

Scotland has 1 Tory mp. I don't agree but understand that the Tories in power are not going to see Scotland as a priority when it comes to spending and investment decisions as they have nothing to lose vote wise. I'm guessing the same applies to Wales. This is unfair but understandable if your a Tory government looking to stay in power.

They do have something to lose in terms of the union though. With Wales they don't particularly need the votes and with little demand for independence they have little need to bribe.

[LJS]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

I wouldn't use that terminology, nor do I think it's helpful  I think it's selfish if a Scottish person thinks Scotland should be entitled to more money per head than Wales. However people by their nature are often selfish, so that's life.

I can find nothing at all that suggests Scotland in any form has attempted to have any influence at all on how much money Walesa should get. I would suggest the responsibility for the amount of  money wales gets lies fair & square with Westminster. 

[pink_triangle]

30 minutes ago, LJS said:

I can find nothing at all that suggests Scotland in any form has attempted to have any influence at all on how much money Walesa should get. I would suggest the responsibility for the amount of  money wales gets lies fair & square with Westminster. 

At the same time have you seen much evidence that the people of Scotland would prefer a fairer system where Scotland gets less, so others get the same? 

[LJS]

Watching Newsnight. I'm not one who spends too much time obsessing about BBC bias ( although I do think they have questions to answer)

So they open with a piece on Indyref 2. let's start with some talking heads from politicians...

in the Red White & Blue Corner: Lord George Foulkes (labour - hates the snp), Theresa Villiers (Tory - guess she's not too keen on the SNP) Alistair Carmichael (LibDem, really really really hates the SNP - so much he lied to try and frame the first minister)

Well. in the Blue & White Corner we'll be expecting a few pro indy folk on to balance this. Here's the first one.. It's our old favourite Alex Salmond - well he's a bit divisive - I mean we've all made our mind up about Eck but he is definitely pro indy & there will be someone else along soon... oh.. no there won't ... it's Eck   & that's it 

In fairness Alec did get 2 soundbites but then so  did George Foulkes. so 3-1 to the union (or 4-2 if you count the double interventions)

Well it's not looking too balanced so far But wait a minute ... we're off to Glasgow - the famous Yes City and we're off to a pub to meet the public - that'll redress the balance.

We speak to five people in what I think is probably the wonderful Horseshoe Bar in Dury Street - highly recommended for anyone visiting Glasgow & seeking refuge from the Cybernat death squads that relentlessly roam the streets seeking elderly no voters to cull.

Astonishingly we manage to fine 3 clearly opposed to Indy, one opposed to having a referendum & one lukewarm pro-indy who doesn't think we should have a referendum now.

Truly astonishing from the BBC we talk to a total of 9 people. One of them is clearly in favour of Independence and he is Alec Salmond. 

We did go on to a studio discussion between 1 (one ) SNP mp & 1 (one) Tory mp. but by then the damage wa swell and truly done.

I'm sure this is available on iPlayer if anyone wants to check.. 

Anyone care to defend this?

 

 

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

At the same time have you seen much evidence that the people of Scotland would prefer a fairer system where Scotland gets less, so others get the same? 

is that fairer? I think that is a bit of an assumption. Even Neil accepts that it costs more to deliver services in Scotland because of geography. I'm sure I heard something in Indyref1 about pooling and sharing. In terms of how wealth is distributed in the UK, I'm not sure Scotland is the first place you should be looking for money to redistribute to the welsh, We certainly regularly vote for people who are more into redistribution than folk down your way.  

Edited March 14, 2017 by LJS

[kaosmark2]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

is that fairer? I think that is a bit of an assumption. Even Neil accepts that it costs more to deliver services in Scotland because of geography. I'm sure I heard something in Indyref1 about pooling and sharing. In terms of how wealth is distributed in the UK, I'm not sure Scotland is the first place you should be looking for money to redistribute to the welsh, We certainly regularly vote for people who are more into redistribution than folk down your way.  

I must have misunderstood the number of votes for Tory and Labour in Scotland in the last Holyrood elections.

[brandycoke]

Just watching the Scottish news, and there was an interview with the landlady of a "Yes" bar in Glasgow.

Quite sad that these places even exist, though i'd imagine the atmosphere inside would be quite something .

"Yes" bar for Glastonbury anyone ?

Got me thinking..couple of guys on here would be ideal to headline the Friday evening comedy slot .