The Dirty Independence Question

[pink_triangle]

6 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

I have no expectations of May making me happy. Do you. 

On the issue of not holding a Scottish referendum before Brexit, then yes I think she will take my side and not yours. 

 

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

And there was a Scottish election where we the people of Scotland gave the SNP a mandate to hold a referendum.

Nobody is saying no referendum ever, but Scotland don't get to hold all the cards in decisions that effect the UK..

[LJS]

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

May certainly has the moral right....

Certainly is a strong word, Neil.

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

unless you think that Sturgeon has no moral right to stop (say) Edinburgh holding it's own separate vote to decide it didn't want to be part of an independent Scotland. Next?

Oh, look the first squirrel of the day.

24 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Is she politically right? 2 days ago I'd have said no, this morning I'm much less sure. The only comeback Sturgeon seems to have is that May is scared - which is funny as fuck given that Sturgeon has spent the last 9 months running scared from her own threat of doing what May has just said she can't.

And Sturgeon is claiming a principle of democracy, too, when all democratic indicators say it's Sturgeon who is not accepting what the people want.

She has a mandate. It remains to be seen what effect may's intervention will have on opinion in Scotland.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

And how confident are you about this?

more than if Scotland is playing c**t.

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

Sorry, I don't feel your distraction is a reason to deny the democratic will of the Scottish people.

then show me that it's their will, by showing me that they want a vote at the time of Sturgeon's choosing.

You can't, because the evidence says the opposite.

It's YOU that wants to deny the democratic will. 

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

Frankly, I don't care. This is no more relevant than what the majority of the EU would have thought about the UK Eu referendum. The problem here is that the UKgov has trundled out all sorts of meaningless platitudes about how we are all equal partners in a union of nations but have turned a deaf ear to the attempts of the Scottish Government to engage in constructive debate on trying to meet the democratically  expressed desire of the Scottish electorate to try & find a way to preserve some enhance level of access to European markets for Scotland.

They've ignored it for Bristol too, which voted remain more strongly than scotland did.

People in Bristol don't think they're more important than other people in the UK, so aren't saying they should get a special deal, nor are they saying they'll try to fuck up the deal for everyone else.

Care to tell me what makes people in scotland more important than others in the UK, so that Scotland gets what it voted for but other parts don't?

Go on, tell me democracy is only about where you draw the dividing line, and not where your own countrymen said there shouldn't be a dividing line.

 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

 

 

 

 

And now having ignored them completely, they are outraged when we say, "sorry guys, we've tried, you haven't even had the decency to talk to us, so we'll have a vote & we'll have it when we decide"

So when would be fine for our referendum, 2 years? 4 years ? 8  years? 20 years? 100 years?

who decides? 

 

 

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

So when would be fine for our referendum, 2 years? 4 years ? 8  years? 20 years? 100 years?

who decides? 

The SG.

They have to decide they want one before anyone can deny anything.

We're still all waiting. Why a nine month delay - so far - if it's so important and based in the democratic choice of the SNP's manifesto?

 

[LJS]

10 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

LJS flip this away from a position of self interest. If you were in Mays position what would you do? 

If I were in may's position I would already at least have made a pretence of giving a shit  about Scotland's proposals for brexit, which might even have prevented sturgeon calling for an indyref. I certainly would not be in the position may is in today 

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, LJS said:

Maybe Theresa should have thought of that before treating the Scottish government's attempts to reach a compromise with utter contempt. I appreciate it's all a bit inconvenient for a Tory government hell-bent on a hard brexit that no one voted for. I suspect Theresa will be very disappointed if she thinks "not now" is the end of it.

do you think that May should have to bend to Dorset County Council's will too? 

Or it it just Scots and Scotland who have super-special rights that make them more important than others in the country?

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, LJS said:

It is clear that we will know what brexit looks like before the proposed referendum dates. It is ludicrous to say you can't have a vote until we have already dragged you out of the EU.

Nope, it's not clear at all.

For all we know the EU might demand absolute confidentiality until the deal is done (which it has done with all other trade negotiations, btw).

And even when the terms are clear the effect of the terms will not be.

[LJS]

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

they'd have been less chance of being removed from the EU is your FM hadn't twiddled her thumbs for nine months, but you seem to be giving her a free pass about that.

And they'd be less chance of being removed from the EU is your FM wasn't planning on waiting another 18 months before deciding to vote, which guarntees scotland could not be indy before it's out of the EU, but you seem to be giving her a free pass about your own FM being the one to make the choice that you're 100% definitely out of the EU.

Cos if you care to notice, your own FM still hasn't even asked for a vote for it to be refused - and it's her own lack of action which guarantees Scotland is taken outf o the EU.

What utter nonsense. You are now criticising sturgeon for not calling an indyref sooner. I'm sure she'd have had your support if she'd done that.

You are priceless.

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, LJS said:

Meanwhile Scot gov calls a general election with SNP & greens standing on a clear independence mandate. If they win, no referendum required.

Not true, tho, is it?

The SG has no more right to call an independence ref and get it than Hawley Parish Council.

 

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, LJS said:

Get your lies in early, Neil.

Assertion unsupported by anything at all.

Salmond said Scotland was being treated like a county not a country.

Care to tell us all what extra rights to self-determination the residents of Scotland have that the residents of Leicestershire don't have?

Why are Scots more special,?

Go on, you can tell us all.

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

do you think that May should have to bend to Dorset County Council's will too? 

Or it it just Scots and Scotland who have super-special rights that make them more important than others in the country?

I have no issue with Dorset claiming absolutely anything they want. Do they have a mandate to hold a referendum?

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, LJS said:

Still banging on about Sweden. What about the other countries I listed?

they've fully committed to joining the Euro, because that's what the EU membership rules they agreed to say.

Go on, tell us again how Scotland are committed EU-ers but intend to lie on their EU membership application. 

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Not true, tho, is it?

The SG has no more right to call an independence ref and get it than Hawley Parish Council.

 

I didn't say referendum. I said election.

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Salmond said Scotland was being treated like a county not a country.

Care to tell us all what extra rights to self-determination the residents of Scotland have that the residents of Leicestershire don't have?

Why are Scots more special,?

Go on, you can tell us all.

mandate

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

I didn't say referendum. I said election.

so they have that election and it changes nothing.

It's not the SG's right to decide about when, and it's not the Scottish people's right to decide about when.

It doesn't matter what votes you have on it, that part doesn't change. never mind, eh?

 

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

so they have that election and it changes nothing.

It's not the SG's right to decide about when, and it's not the Scottish people's right to decide about when.

It doesn't matter what votes you have on it, that part doesn't change. never mind, eh?

 

It would be interesting, though, wouldn't it?

[LJS]

SNP conference this weekend in Aberdeen.

Should be interesting.

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

Oh, look the first squirrel of the day.

Nope, the very heart of everything.

If Scotland has a moral right to vote itself a right to a constitutional vote, so has Edinburgh.

Anything else would be anti-democratic and not the equality and self-determination you claim is central to scottish indy.

And now you've explained that it's not.

Which I knew of course, but it's good to see you agree by dismissing the right of self-determination for others while claiming it as a right for Scots, just Scots.

 

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, LJS said:

She has a mandate. It remains to be seen what effect may's intervention will have on opinion in Scotland.

She has a mandate but not a right. 

she claimed a democratic right, but when the democratic view is clearly against her.

And yep, it'll be interesting to see what May's refusal has on things. Are Scots so fucking dumb that someone telling them 'not now' turns the whole country into tantruming 2 year olds? We'll get to find out.

 

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

What utter nonsense. You are now criticising sturgeon for not calling an indyref sooner. I'm sure she'd have had your support if she'd done that.

You are priceless.

I've been saying she's been bottling it since June. What have you missed for fucks sake?

She's been free to call it whenever she liked. 

And the simple fact is that each day's delay made Scotland out the EU more certain.

And the simple fact is, scotland has known it's going out of the EU since June but has chosen to go along with it rather than take the strongest action it could towards staying in.

Sturgeon doesn't get to control the process, but she does get to outline what she'd like the process to be - and she's already outlined that she wants Scotland out of the EU anyway, via her delay until now and the decision to not vote for another 18 months (and even her doc from december).

 

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

She has a mandate but not a right. 

she claimed a democratic right, but when the democratic view is clearly against her.

And yep, it'll be interesting to see what May's refusal has on things. Are Scots so fucking dumb that someone telling them 'not now' turns the whole country into tantruming 2 year olds? We'll get to find out.

 

If it does, you'll be right at home here.

 

[russycarps]

39 minutes ago, LJS said:

It is clear that we will know what brexit looks like before the proposed referendum dates. It is ludicrous to say you can't have a vote until we have already dragged you out of the EU.

How Is that clear? Nothing at all is known about how this process will go, or what the end result will be. It might even end up highly beneficial to Scotland. Who knows? 

The only thing that is clear is that nothing is clear.

 

[russycarps]

Double post

Edited March 17, 2017 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

I have no issue with Dorset claiming absolutely anything they want. Do they have a mandate to hold a referendum?

I've no idea, but Salmond said Scotland was being treated like a country not a country, when as far as I'm aware there is no default right to a ref for a county or Scotland.

Salmond thinks there's greater right for Scots and Scotland.

so that blows away 'civic', that blows away claims of backing equality, and shows snippers as thinking themselves special people with greater rights than other people.

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, LJS said:

I didn't say referendum. I said election.

an election you suggested holding to 'force' May into doing what she's supposedly refusing.

Have as many as you like, matey. It changes nothing.

Scots are not special.