The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

Back to Indy

 

Kevin McKenna nails it

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/19/theresa-may-triggered-call-second-scottish-referendum-independence

[Comfy Bean]

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

....and many had never crossed the border into evil England! 

Playing to the crowd ?

Very few people up here actually talk like this.

[pink_triangle]

4 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Playing to the crowd ?

Very few people up here actually talk like this.

No, it's called a joke! 

[eFestivals]

15 hours ago, LJS said:

 

 

I wouldn't - what made you think I'd accept it - its a joke.

It's desperate and frankly embarrassing stuff from the pro union side who are clearly panicking.

nope, it's just an old fart who wants to believe he has all the answers for Scotland.

Which makes him much like others. Brown thinks Scotland's issues will be cured by federalism and Sturgeon thinks Scotland's problems will be cured by indy. Which is just like Farage who thinks all UK problems will be cured by brexit and like Trump who thinks all USA problems will be cured by building a wall.

I think they're all wrong and think that the problem for all of them and their supporters is realism which there's no political fix for, just a personal one.

For example, there's a new poll (last 24 hours, I forget which) that says 40+% of Scots think iScotland will be richer or no poorer.

Which is funny, cos if 15% of your money is taken away, i'm pretty sure you'd feel poorer.

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, LJS said:

Their "easy- read manifest said this too

I'm loving that there's an "easy read" manifesto.

I'm also just a little bit confused why Sturgeon has been saying different and conflicting things, even going so far as to misrepresent the SNP's intentions in their manifesto.

Turns out that when she said "the scottish people will decide" - which both you or comfy (or both) proudly mouthed at me as meaningful at some point down the line - she was lying. 

Which funnily enough I always said back at you (or comfy) was what it was. And it turns out the reply I got from you (or comfy) was a lie, too.

And then she claims 'democracy' around the part of her lie, even when it's exceedingly clear that there is not majority democratic support for what she claims.

And she claims all of this around the 'principle' of "being dragged out of the EU against our will" when she was quite happy to propose herself that Scotland is dragged out of the EU against its will. As things stand in plans she's put forwards, that's *exactly* what she's planning to do herself.

With such straight-up honest operators, Scotland's gloriously rich future is assured.

[eFestivals]

I liked the fact that Sturgeon started her speech yesterday by talking about a once in a lifetime opportunity.

She congratulated Scotland for winning a rugby match.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

Hey Neil & Barry, Lost, PT, Kaos & all the rest of you guys, in case you missed it Nicola issued an invitation to y'all. Come & join us.

she's been doing that for a long while, and like all other Scottish growth, Scottish population growth lags behind England.

Fancy that, eh? An England that's so fucking horrible it's MUCH more popular than Scotland. 

There's nowt like the facts for showing that Sturgeon talks shit.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

In a similar vein, I found this rather lovely twitter account. Reminds me of some stuff someone on here has been ranting about endlessly . just can't quite remember who...

tell me again what's civic and equality about believing yourself with greater rights than other people, that you have a super-special status over others....?

Oh, you've never told me even a first time, and I've been asking for a month.

It's strange that this question scares you so much. Can't think why. 

[LJS]

39 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

she's been doing that for a long while, and like all other Scottish growth, Scottish population growth lags behind England.

Fancy that, eh? An England that's so fucking horrible it's MUCH more popular than Scotland. 

There's nowt like the facts for showing that Sturgeon talks shit.

Who said England was horrible?

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

Back to Indy

 

Kevin McKenna nails it

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/19/theresa-may-triggered-call-second-scottish-referendum-independence

Do you think? 

Or is merely that he's saying stuff you like, about how if an English person says for Scots to do a particular thing, Scots will mindlessly do the opposite out of anti-English spite?

I do particularly like how he starts by pointing that out.

Unfortunately, tho, it doesn't seem to be working that way, and it's hardcore nutters like you who are wrongly taking offence on behalf of other people, rather than those people taking offence for themselves.

(quotes below from the article)

Quote

Yet, on Thursday, May seemed merely to be haggling over the date of the referendum rather than its legitimacy.

No shit sherlock!

Legitimate or not, May has to decide whether it's appropriate or not - and the reasons she's given around brexit are quite reasonable in themselves.

Politically she might perhaps have handled it better, but then again I'm a fan of a straightwards no-shit approach rather than bullshit and games, and it seems to be working for May in rebutting a ref for now better than just about everyone thought it would.

Questions about the mandate are legitimate too, given that Sturgeon always used to continually say "the Scottish people will decide when" - and even put that in the 2016 manifesto - and there's nothing to indicate it's wanted to Sturgeon's timetable.

Quote

In justifying her position, the prime minister stated that now was not the time to hold a referendum, when we all needed to work together to secure the best deal for Britain in the Brexit negotiations. This one won’t sail either, as, in the words of Sturgeon, up until now, “our efforts at compromise have been met with a brick wall of intransigence”.

Except of course, Scotland only recently self-determined to abide by whole-UK decisions. That's no less of a mandate, and a permanent one too.

The "efforts at compromise" were a statement of not abiding by whole-UK decisions.

Quote

With each ill-advised statement on the sovereignty of Holyrood, May has merely strengthened the case for Scottish independence.

except there's not a jot to indicate that's the case so far - including within a poll where some of the polling was done after this happened (a poll published in the last 24 hours).

Indy supporters taking offence and snippers talking it up is not a strengthened case for indy, it's just self-serving lies from an indy side that knows it can't present an acceptable case for indy on the facts alone.

And just to prove the point....

Quote

In recent years Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (Gers) figures have been gloomy reading for nationalists, suggesting that a starting deficit could be as much as £15bn. These numbers, though, are guesstimates that pay little heed to the exceptional needs and different spending priorities of an independent Scotland. They were established by a Tory government in 1992 for the specific purpose of showing Scotland’s finances in a bad light and cheerfully ignore that the fabled black hole in Scotland’s finances is the ultimate responsibility of a UK government, which still exerts the lion’s share of fiscal control..

Oh look, here's the standard snipper GERS denial. The numbers can't be believed, and they're a tory anti-indy plot.

Except of course these are the same numbers which Salmond and Sturgeon called 'authoritative' in 2014.

Except these are are the same numbers which Salmond and Sturgeon were/are personally responsible for.

It's a publication of the Scottish Govt, put together by Scottish Govt civil servants (working in Scotland and therefore 'Scottish') that Salmond and Sturgeon employ(ed).

It's a publication that Salmond and Sturgeon sign(ed) off.

And that Salmond and Sturgeon fully accept as accurate (within the usual statistical caveats).

And, given those cavaets, if they're wrong they're just as likely to be wrong to the further determent of Scotland as they might be to its benefit.

And better still, McKenna quotes the Richard Murphy thing, already demolished by chokka.

http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/03/richard-murphy-gers-denier.html

So there we have it. It's the usual crock of anti-fact shite - FAKE NEWS!!! - and LJS thinks it nails it. Love it.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

Who said England was horrible?

about a million snippers who want out of the "increasing right wing" and "authoritative" (and plenty of other things including clear racism) "English run" UK.

Because England is throwing the UK off a cliff, and Scotland isn't going down with it.

Scotland wants to make sure it's exceptional and goes down much much faster.

Because it's dreadful when politicians accept a democratic vote.

[eFestivals]

51 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

tell me again what's civic and equality about believing yourself with greater rights than other people, that you have a super-special status over others....?

Oh, you've never told me even a first time, and I've been asking for a month.

It's strange that this question scares you so much. Can't think why. 

 

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

No, it's called a joke! 

Apols PT. Point taken, my bad :-)

If you read through the next few posts, or most of the previous pages on this thread, you sill see another poster who says much the same but not in jest. He is deadly serious.

I gave up calling him out on it years ago but apols again for misreading your post.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Apols PT. Point taken, my bad :-)

If you read through the next few posts, or most of the previous pages on this thread, you sill see another poster who says much the same but not in jest. He is deadly serious.

I gave up calling him out on it years ago but apols again for misreading your post.

So what you're saying is that England is nice and fluffy and there's nothing about it you find objectionable, but despite your absolute love for it you want to go off on your own anyway?

Perhaps you, personally, do.

It's fuck all like that for the vast majority of snippers, tho. It's largely about how objectionable they find supposed traits of England and how they want no association with England as a result.

Of course, this is new to you and it's nothing you've ever experienced in Scotland, right?

[Comfy Bean]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

So what you're saying is that England is nice and fluffy and there's nothing about it you find objectionable, but despite your absolute love for it you want to go off on your own anyway?

Perhaps you, personally, do.

 

Nailed it.

[eFestivals]

Just now, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Nailed it.

And I can show you tens of thousands of examples of what I said.

It exists, and is a big part of what is driving indy - and like so much of what is driving indy, its whole basis is myth.

[LJS]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And I can show you tens of thousands of examples of what I said.

It exists, and is a big part of what is driving indy - and like so much of what is driving indy, its whole basis is myth.

Tens of thousands! Wow! Considering your recent inability to find one example of Sturgeon saying something you'd made up, tens of thousands is some claim.

[LJS]

40 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Nailed it.

Just for the record, I have had the pleasure of visiting most parts of England  - I haven't been to east Anglia or Cornwall though and don't dislike any parts of your country/region/nation although I did find the Peak district rather more picturesque than Dudley.

Equally, I have met hundreds (possibly thousands) of English people and to be frank some of them have been rightKnobs, but then I've also met Scottish Irish & Welsh Knobs too. Nothing in my experience suggest that their Knobbishness is in any way connected to their Englishness or that England has a greater proportion of Knobs than anywhere else in the world.

I will confess to being please that Ireland defeated England at rugby yesterday in the "2 Nations, 3 regions and a Nation with a region tacked on to it Championship."

 

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, LJS said:

Just for the record,

and just for the record....

am i right about what i said, or is that a part of what some (quite a lot!) of indy supporters think that you've never ever encountered before...?

 

[LJS]

28 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and just for the record....

am i right about what i said, or is that a part of what some (quite a lot!) of indy supporters think that you've never ever encountered before...?

 

there are all sorts of unpleasant people on both sides, some of whom no doubt have the unpleasant views you spoke about. Others liek to photoshop Sturgeon into a Nazi Uniform.

I don't encounter these views much because they are almost exclusively  articulated (?) from behind the safety of a keyboard and visible in the on-line sewers, you seem to enjoy frequenting.

 

[LJS]

relevant to some recent events, here'e the latest int he "journey to Yes" series, which I am sure Neil is enjoying.

Rather a nice English chap who has taken Nicola up on her invitation to come & join us in Scotland. Apparently he's been made most welcome.!!!

 

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

I don't encounter these views much because they are almost exclusively  articulated (?) from behind the safety of a keyboard and visible in the on-line sewers, you seem to enjoy frequenting.

They're just all opinions, and you get all types expressed. What I only rarely see see are the 'decent' snippers condemning the many negative views from the mildest myths to the most extreme.

Which seems odd, given there's so many claims of such a high proportion of the righteous.

Edited March 19, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

relevant to some recent events, here'e the latest int he "journey to Yes" series, which I am sure Neil is enjoying.

Rather a nice English chap who has taken Nicola up on her invitation to come & join us in Scotland. Apparently he's been made most welcome.!!!

 

does he have a better idea of where those whopping cuts in spending will fall than you or Nicola?

He probably does, what with being English and everything. He's probably got tory in his DNA, too.

Edited March 19, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

They're just all opinions, and you get all types expressed. What I only rarely see see are the 'decent' snippers condemning the many negative views from the mildest myths to the most extreme.

Which seems odd, given there's so many claims of such a high proportion of the righteous.

Perhaps, like me, the "decent snippers" prefer not to waste their time BTL. 

There are plenty of nasty & offensive things said by "yoons" too & I don't see the "decent yoons'" condemning them.

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, LJS said:

There are plenty of nasty & offensive things said by "yoons" too & I don't see the "decent yoons'" condemning them.

But the decent 'yoons' aren't claiming they've a better sense of morality and social justice than those on the other side of indy.