The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

But the decent 'yoons' aren't claiming they've a better sense of morality and social justice than those on the other side of indy.

Neither am I.

[eFestivals]

36 minutes ago, LJS said:

Neither am I.

so what's the purpose of indy, again, remind me please...?

It's not about being taken out of the EU cos Sturgeon offered that herself. It doesn't appear to be about trying to get back into the EU (tho that's not clear), and it's not about the money, and it's not because Scots are better or exceptional or different or superior to the English, and it can't be about looking after the poor better cos they'll be made even poorer.

 

[LJS]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

so what's the purpose of indy, again, remind me please...?

It's not about being taken out of the EU cos Sturgeon offered that herself. It doesn't appear to be about trying to get back into the EU (tho that's not clear), and it's not about the money, and it's not because Scots are better or exceptional or different or superior to the English, and it can't be about looking after the poor better cos they'll be made even poorer.

 

It's about being governed by people that the electorate in Scotland vote for, which in practice means not Tories. Its also about living in a country which shows a healthy disdain for Ukip and doesn't have them dictating government policy. Its not complicated.

And please note, I didn't say it about being governed by people I vote for  - Its not about me.

I now await my customary invitation to Neil's bedroom 

[kaosmark2]

Why does "the electorate in Scotland" matter more than "electorate in Yorkshire", "electorate in Truro", "electorate in Neil's bedroom"?

I get that you're fed up of the comparison, but I'm still not sure there's an answer to explain why one matters more.

[LJS]

4 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Why does "the electorate in Scotland" matter more than "electorate in Yorkshire", "electorate in Truro", "electorate in Neil's bedroom"?

They don'e (well apart from the last one, obviously! I have no objection if the citizens of Yorkshire or Truro wish to campaign for independence.

4 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

I get that you're fed up of the comparison, but I'm still not sure there's an answer to explain why one matters more.

Whether anyone likes it or not, the notion that we have the right to decide if we separate from the UK has already been conceded, both by allowing the 2014 referendum & by TMay's response to the impending request for another one. "No is not he time" clearly implies that some other time is "the time" I realise that some rather blinkered folk on here seem to think this means we all think we are the master race glorying in the Triumphs of Robert the Bruce & William Wallace rather than, perhaps, Donald Dewar and Nicola Sturgeon but that's for them to worry about

 

[LJS]

Regarding the whole indyref2 malarkey, I read someone who reckoned sturgeon is perfectly content with how things are panning out  the story goes that she didn't really want a referendum in the next couple of years as she would like longer to prepare but needed to satisfy the more "enthusiastic" of her followers. 

Hence, the theory goes, she is perfectly (but secretly) happy with TMay's "now is not the time"

So, not only does she get the referendum at the time she wants but she gets the added bonus of this being achieved by UKgov appearing to ignore the will of the Scottish government.

The theory may well be bollocks but there is a certain logic to it.

[pink_triangle]

LJS hypothetical question. If the SNP in Scotland had the chance to implement a policy that their research showed would help the poorest people in Scotland, yet also suggested would cost them votes in an independence referendum. Would you want them to implement the policy or not? 

[LJS]

28 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

LJS hypothetical question. If the SNP in Scotland had the chance to implement a policy that their research showed would help the poorest people in Scotland, yet also suggested would cost them votes in an independence referendum. Would you want them to implement the policy or not? 

I'm surprised that you have to ask that question. I have frequently said political parties should act in accordance with their principles and where those principles don't chime with public opinion, they should campaign to change public opinion. So a party, like the SNP that claims to be a progressive soclal democratic party should absolutely work to reduce poverty. 

Again, I have frequently criticised the SNP for being too cautious - simple example - they should have raised the top rate of income tax. 

They are certainly not alone in this  - I would suggest all political parties are guilty of it.

The Tories are exempt of course because they have no principles.

I would however, have hoped that policies that help the poor would be broadly popular and therefore make support for the SNP & indy grow.

[pink_triangle]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

Again, I have frequently criticised the SNP for being too cautious - simple example - they should have raised the top rate of income tax. 

They are certainly not alone in this  - I would suggest all political parties are guilty of it.

I would however, have hoped that policies that help the poor would be broadly popular and therefore make support for the SNP & indy grow.

I would propose that the reason the SNP won't put up tax is that they think it will cost them votes/an independence referendum. 

The electoral maths is the same in Scotland as the rest of the uk. The policies are targeted at the people who vote and the vulnerable don't. 

In an ideal world people may think it's great more money is being taken from them to help people with less. However i suspect the Scottish are no different to the rest of us when it comes to losing out themselves.

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I would propose that the reason the SNP won't put up tax is that they think it will cost them votes/an independence referendum. 

All parties are exactly the same. It's Thatcher's fault (liek so much else) She made it politically all but impossible to campaign on the basis of raising tax. Or to be more exact - income tax.

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

The electoral maths is the same in Scotland as the rest of the uk. The policies are targeted at the people who vote and the vulnerable don't. 

Yup.

3 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

In an ideal world people may think it's great more money is being taken from them to help people with less. However i suspect the Scottish are no different to the rest of us when it comes to losing out themselves.

Well, until recently, we have consistently voted Labour for about 60 years which would indicate (for whatever the reason) we are at least a little bit more prepared to vote for fairness and equality. 

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, LJS said:

Regarding the whole indyref2 malarkey, I read someone who reckoned sturgeon is perfectly content with how things are panning out  the story goes that she didn't really want a referendum in the next couple of years as she would like longer to prepare but needed to satisfy the more "enthusiastic" of her followers. 

Hence, the theory goes, she is perfectly (but secretly) happy with TMay's "now is not the time"

So, not only does she get the referendum at the time she wants but she gets the added bonus of this being achieved by UKgov appearing to ignore the will of the Scottish government.

The theory may well be bollocks but there is a certain logic to it.

I don't think it's bollocks.

An Indy ref will happen in the term of this Scottish Parliament to be covered by the mandate. 

That gives us 2020 and 2021....I think.

Another Tory ge victory could then be in the mix plus the final 6 months of the article 50 process thingy will be when the SNP can make hay.

During that 6 months, each Country in Europe will be negotiating our Brexit terms. With Scotland not having a say.

NS content to play the long game on the assumption that the brexit doesn't go well while demonstrating that she was willing to compromise on the date.

Neil's rubbish earlier that she should of called it 9 months ago would have been a gift to the unionists. If she had dived straight in she would of lost badly.

 

[Comfy Bean]

4 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Why does "the electorate in Scotland" matter more than "electorate in Yorkshire", "electorate in Truro", "electorate in Neil's bedroom"?

I get that you're fed up of the comparison, but I'm still not sure there's an answer to explain why one matters more.

To the debate around Scottish Indy ?

Clearly one matters more. 

Away from the context of Scottish Indy you are right, each bedroom is equal. The blood and soil banter is just Neil's way of implying nazi similarities. He also likens the yes movement with fascism. 

 

[Comfy Bean]

6 hours ago, LJS said:

It's about being governed by people that the electorate in Scotland vote for, which in practice means not Tories. Its also about living in a country which shows a healthy disdain for Ukip and doesn't have them dictating government policy. Its not complicated.

And please note, I didn't say it about being governed by people I vote for  - Its not about me.

I now await my customary invitation to Neil's bedroom 

Read a piece in Saturday`s Herald about the front page of an Italian Newspaper agreeing with you. It was in the old fashioned version that you can fold and put under your arm so can`t link as it will be behind their paywall.

The New York Times had this article on the same theme..... 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/world/europe/scotland-independence-paisley.html

The language of identity and nation resonates here as much as in the rest of working-class Britain, but the conversation is entirely different.

Where England has veered right and English nationalism tends to be of the nostalgic kind, laced with anti-immigrant rhetoric, Scotland has veered left and embraced a civic-style nationalism, welcoming anyone who wants to live and work in the country.

There is enough immigration in Paisley to support a Polish section in the public library and at least one Polish grocery store. The manager, Marcin Sutkowski, plans to vote for Scottish independence — not least because he fears for his right to stay after Britain has left the European Union. “We are scared of Brexit,” he said, referring to the withdrawal. “Scottish people respect us.”

Mr. Sutkowski, 28, talked about Polish immigrants in England and how the mood had changed since the vote to leave the European Union. Racist slurs have become more common. Poles now often find themselves accused of stealing jobs and benefits.

 

[lost]

18 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

There is enough immigration in Paisley to support a Polish section in the public library and at least one Polish grocery store. The manager, Marcin Sutkowski, plans to vote for Scottish independence — not least because he fears for his right to stay after Britain has left the European Union. “We are scared of Brexit,” he said, referring to the withdrawal. “Scottish people respect us.”

 

Thats hilarious! one whole grocery store!!

I'm not in a major city and I have 3 eastern European supermarkets, 2 polish delicatessens, 1 Czech bakery, 2 polish restaurants and a polish cafe that I pass on my walk into town. Much more integrated than Scotland.

It also sounds as though sounds like Mr Sutkowski has been lucky:

https://stv.tv/news/scotland/227562-racism-on-the-increase-in-scotland/

Quote

Increased levels of Islamophobia and negative attitudes towards Polish people could be behind a 20% rise in racist incidents in Scotland, experts have said.

Every day in Scotland, 17 people are abused, threatened or violently attacked because of the colour of their skin, ethnicity or nationality.

Statistics showed that 6171 incidents of racism were recorded in 2009/10 - a rise of 20.4% from the 5123 racist incidents recorded in 2008/9.

Part of the rise is thought to be down to an increase in anti-Polish attacks, with the Federation of Poles in Great Britain saying there has been an annual 20% rise in racist incidents.

England wales stats:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/racist-incidents-table-england-and-wales-2011-to-2012--2/racist-incidents-england-and-wales-2011-12

So per head of population Scotland has more racist attacks than England and Wales.

[Comfy Bean]

9 minutes ago, lost said:

Thats hilarious! one whole grocery store!!

I'm not in a major city and I have 3 eastern European supermarkets, 2 polish delicatessens, 1 Czech bakery, 2 polish restaurants and a polish cafe that I pass on my walk into town. Much more integrated than Scotland.

It also sounds as though sounds like Mr Sutkowski has been lucky:

https://stv.tv/news/scotland/227562-racism-on-the-increase-in-scotland/

England wales stats:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/racist-incidents-table-england-and-wales-2011-to-2012--2/racist-incidents-england-and-wales-2011-12

So per head of population Scotland has more racist attacks than England and Wales.

Those figures from 2011 are certainly disappointing to read. Fast forward to September last year and the picture seems to have changed...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/post-brexit-racism-truth-hate-8787243

 

The vote to leave the European Union triggered a 14 per cent rise in hate crimes across the UK - with tensions particularly boiling over in Vote Leave areas, where people were told they should be killed and were beaten for being from Europe.

But tellingly, Scotland - which had a higher Remain vote than any region in the UK - was the only police force area in the UK where the number of hate crimes fell.

A freedom of information request by the Mirror reveals areas with a strong Leave vote in the south-east of England such as Suffolk, Norfolk and Thames Valley saw huge surges in hate crime after June 23.

 

 

[lost]

13 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Those figures from 2011 are certainly disappointing to read. Fast forward to September last year and the picture seems to have changed...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/post-brexit-racism-truth-hate-8787243

 

The vote to leave the European Union triggered a 14 per cent rise in hate crimes across the UK - with tensions particularly boiling over in Vote Leave areas, where people were told they should be killed and were beaten for being from Europe.

But tellingly, Scotland - which had a higher Remain vote than any region in the UK - was the only police force area in the UK where the number of hate crimes fell.

A freedom of information request by the Mirror reveals areas with a strong Leave vote in the south-east of England such as Suffolk, Norfolk and Thames Valley saw huge surges in hate crime after June 23.

 

 

I cant find the official figures for the scots for that year but even at peak brexit the British number was still less attacks per head than the Scots in the previous article.

You really need to quit with this narrative that the Scots are some morally superior master race, its pretty offensive to the rest of us. 99% of eastern europeans go about their day in the rest of Britain quite happily.

[LJS]

12 minutes ago, lost said:

I cant find the official figures for the scots for that year

So I'll just make them up.

Quote

but even at peak brexit the British number was still less attacks per head than the Scots in the previous article.

So what if Scottish figures have fallen?

Quote

You really need to quit with this narrative that the Scots are some morally superior master race,

The only people who ever make this claim are the likes of you and Neil who claim it on behalf of Comfy and myself.

Quote

its pretty offensive to the rest of us. 99% of eastern europeans go about their day in the rest of Britain quite happily.

neither you nor I have no idea if that statistic you just plucked our of your arse is true.

I do think overall Britain is a reasonably tolerant place. It worries me that that may well be under threat.

Edited March 19, 2017 by LJS

[LJS]

22 minutes ago, lost said:

I cant find the official figures for the scots for that year but even at peak brexit the British number was still less attacks per head than the Scots in the previous article.

You really need to quit with this narrative that the Scots are some morally superior master race, its pretty offensive to the rest of us. 99% of eastern europeans go about their day in the rest of Britain quite happily.

I think it's quite dangerous when laymen like you or me start cherry picking statistics and jumping to conclusions especially when the statistics are 6 years old.

Here are some more recent statistics (from 2015-2016

England and wales 49,419 race hate crimes - you'll find this figure in here   https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/559319/hate-crime-1516-hosb1116.pdf

Scotland : 3,712 charges reported in 2015-16, 3 percent lower than in 2014-15, and the lowest number reported since 2003-04.

This comes from here http://www.crownoffice.gov.uk/media-site/media-releases/1329-hate-crime-in-scotland-2015-16

Now, on the face of it that looks as if Scotland has less race hate crimes per head than England and Wales. But I'll let you into a secret. I have no idea if the figures are compiled in the same way and are in any way comparable, so I'm not going to use them to make a cheap point. 

 

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, lost said:

I cant find the official figures for the scots for that year but even at peak brexit the British number was still less attacks per head than the Scots in the previous article.

You really need to quit with this narrative that the Scots are some morally superior master race, its pretty offensive to the rest of us. 99% of eastern europeans go about their day in the rest of Britain quite happily.

I certainly don't think scots are a morally superior master race. Far from it. What a strange thing to say.

I was responding to the conversation around nationalism with a piece I thought was interesting from the New York paper. I doubt it was written by a dirty snipper.

You found it hilarious and gave some numbers from 2011. They were disappoing but it appears things might be improving. I'm sure we are all happy about this if it's true.

You made up the bit about me thinking Scots are superior and bizarrely claimed everyone else is offended by something I've never said ?

master race :-)  don't be daft !

 

[Comfy Bean]

Are you really claiming your walk into town is much more integrated than the whole of Scotland ;-)

[lost]

5 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I certainly don't think scots are a morally superior master race. Far from it. What a strange thing to say.

I was responding to the conversation around nationalism with a piece I thought was interesting from the New York paper. I doubt it was written by a dirty snipper.

It was the tone of the article. The polish are are respected in Scotland, England is now a racist place and Scotland needs to vote for independence to get away from it.

Its the same demonize "the other" that nationalists always do and then when called out on it you back off saying its in everyone elses head that your doing it. 

Posting scaremongering articles doesn't help. I don't want people thinking they are not welcome here. The government has said they are sure the rights of people in this and other countries will be decided quickly when the talks start, we will still have immigration from the EU afterwards and the people here are valued apart from by one or two dickheads, similar numbers and in most recent years, more dickheads exist in Scotland as the figures show.

Edited March 20, 2017 by lost

[eFestivals]

16 hours ago, LJS said:

It's about being governed by people that the electorate in Scotland vote for, which in practice means not Tories. Its also about living in a country which shows a healthy disdain for Ukip and doesn't have them dictating government policy. Its not complicated.

And please note, I didn't say it about being governed by people I vote for  - Its not about me.

I now await my customary invitation to Neil's bedroom 

Disdain for UKIP, eh? The party that said all the lovely options are available if we're leaving the EU.

Which rather sounds like all the lovely options for iScotland, like the pound which Sturgeon has just said is her preferred currency, along with EU membership.

I guess she's never heard of Montenegro, then? Who doesn't meet EU accession criteria because it doesn't have a sovereign currency.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Montenegro_to_the_European_Union

Is Sturgeon playing little scottie like Farage plays the brain dead? Hah, it couldn't be, right? 

Either you already know your FM is incompetent, or you know your FM is trying to win with bullshit (or you're just mighty fucking dumb).

Either way ....  :lol:

Yep, she's definitely not like Farage, nothing like him. She doesn't want to throw the country off a cliff, definitely not.

 

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, LJS said:

They don'e (well apart from the last one, obviously! I have no objection if the citizens of Yorkshire or Truro wish to campaign for independence.

most indy supporters do. If iYorkshire is suggested to them, on-mass they reply "Scotland is country not a county".

I guess that must be their love of equality shining thru.

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, LJS said:

Whether anyone likes it or not, the notion that we have the right to decide if we separate from the UK has already been conceded, both by allowing the 2014 referendum & by TMay's response to the impending request for another one. "No is not he time" clearly implies that some other time is "the time" I realise that some rather blinkered folk on here seem to think this means we all think we are the master race glorying in the Triumphs of Robert the Bruce & William Wallace rather than, perhaps, Donald Dewar and Nicola Sturgeon but that's for them to worry about

Nope, not a 'right'. A dispensation, if Westminster says so.

Oh look, a snipper lying about the facts. That's never happened before.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

All parties are exactly the same. It's Thatcher's fault (liek so much else) She made it politically all but impossible to campaign on the basis of raising tax. Or to be more exact - income tax.

but according to snippers every Scot hates Thatcher and ignores everything she ever did or said.

and according to snippers you Scots all care more for the poor than the tory English do.

Are you subtly trying to tell us all that the Scots are secret Thatcherites?

Edited March 20, 2017 by eFestivals