The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

49 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

twitter is the place where people only shout at each other. It's not the place for conversations.

Its a place where people express their views.

Quote

If you care to look in the places where conversations happen, you'll see loads of loads of conversations that are exactly as i've said, with endless snipers wading in to add to it.

Conversations happen in pubs, at bus stops, over lunch, on trains, in bed, If you seriously think what goes on BTL is conversation, you are more deluded than I thought. Your description of twitter "the place where people only shout at each other" sums them up far more accurately. 

From my (admittedly very limited experience) the same names crop up all the time  - and folk are regularly accused of posting using more than one name so any attempt to prove the numbers involved it futile!

Quote

It's not the isolated you want to pretend. If it was, I'd never have become hooked on reading about indy, just as I was on hooked on Farage, brexit, Trump, and Corbyn - in each, it's the anti-fact nutters running riot, with everything that comes from those who've rejected the power their brain has.

Maybe you are hooked on Jeremy Kyle & Judge Judy too. I honestly cannot see why anyone with any sanity would hang about there.

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by LJS

[LJS]

2 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Wings over Scotland is run by a racist, who organises hate-attacks on the English, "quislings", "traitors", and anyone else who dares to criticise the SNP and proposals for Scottish indy.

You started reading the Daily Express? Could you give examples of him organising hate-attacks on the English? Just two would do.

2 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

I'm not going to judge everyone who supports Scottish independence by that standard, but that is a hate-filled site of bile and bullying.

You'll need to stop visiting it so often & boosting its hit rate!

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

I sense the goal-posts are starting to move already.

says the man who refuses to even say there's goalposts. :lol:

 

Just now, LJS said:

"suggesting rUK will pay all Scottish pensions is mainstream and acceptable to indy-ists everywhere." may be factually inaccurate.

You said some sites aren't full of nutters.

Yet it accepted that nutty idea and put it out there, and you helped to spread that nutty idea and claim you're an acceptable face of indy.

I'm not claiming it's as extreme as others, i'm pointing out it's extreme in a place that you believe mainstream.

 

Just now, LJS said:

It is not in any sense of the phrase "anti-english sentiment"

Really.

Thinking that by-right other people - the English - should work their nuts off for lovely Scotland just because it's Scotland isn't anti-English?

What aren't you getting about this Englishman being offended about Scots being fed this sort of guff that you call 'mainstream', which suggests it's right and proper and morally justified that the English are Scottish slaves obliged to pay Scots money for nothing at all?

If indy was the moral you claim of it, stuff like that should be laughed away, not promoted by people like you.

(I fully accept that you rejected the pensions part of what it said ... but only after you'd spread it around without having first read it, and today you're claiming the place where it was hosted as 'mainstream' when even the SNP [hardly known for passing up a freebie from England themselves] would laugh at the extremity of that)

You mentioned goalposts above. One of the reasons there no feckin' goalposts to Scottish indy is because people like you promote this sort of guff so there's only air full of bullshit and no factual goalposts to start a discussion around.

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

says the man who refuses to even say there's goalposts.

 

You said some sites aren't full of nutters.

Yet it accepted that nutty idea and put it out there, and you helped to spread that nutty idea and claim you're an acceptable face of indy.

I'm not claiming it's as extreme as others, i'm pointing out it's extreme in a place that you believe mainstream.

 

Really.

Thinking that by-right other people - the English - should work their nuts off for lovely Scotland just because it's Scotland isn't anti-English?

What aren't you getting about this Englishman being offended about Scots being fed this sort of guff that you call 'mainstream', which suggests it's right and proper and morally justified that the English are Scottish slaves obliged to pay Scots money for nothing at all?

If indy was the moral you claim of it, stuff like that should be laughed away, not promoted by people like you.

(I fully accept that you rejected the pensions part of what it said ... but only after you'd spread it around without having first read it, and today you're claiming the place where it was hosted as 'mainstream' when even the SNP [hardly known for passing up a freebie from England themselves] would laugh at the extremity of that)

You mentioned goalposts above. One of the reasons there no feckin' goalposts to Scottish indy is because people like you promote this sort of guff so there's only air full of bullshit and no factual goalposts to start a discussion around.

As I said - goalposts being shifted & definition of "Anti-English" being stretched to breaking point. 

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

Its a place where people express their views.

It is.

And it's also a place where no one can really answer back to those views, so it encourages those who like to talk but don't do listening.

 

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

Conversations happen in pubs, at bus stops, over lunch, on trains, in bed, If you seriously think what goes on BTL is conversation, you are more deluded than I thought. Your description of twitter "the place where people only shout at each other" sums them up far more accurately. 

It's no more or less conversation than here is, which you seem to find conversational enough.

FFS.

And i'm well aware of the full-nutter contingient. The ones i'm on about are not those, yet are STILL a significant chunk of the indy supporters.

Given that you can't even admit the basics what Salmond was doing in the HoC last week, your opinion ain't worth shit anyway. You'd deny your mother if she wasn't on side with indy.

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

From my (admittedly very limited experience) the same names crop up all the time  - and folk are regularly accused of posting using more than one name so any attempt to prove the numbers involved it futile!

Yep, there's both of those types and the occasionals too, plus all the ones like me who read but never post.

Where anti-English sentiment can have a long long run, but which is never ever EVER called out by a 'good indy-ist' - not a regular, not one using multiple names, no5rt anyone reading who thinks these people are damaging to indy.

It all gets to stand as it is, as a representation of what indy is about.

Indy-ists can change it. They don't want to. Care to suggest why they're happy for something so important to be presented like that, and continually?

 

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

Maybe you are hooked on Jeremy Kyle & Judge Judy too. I honestly cannot see why anyone with any sanity would hang about there.

because, amongst all the shite are facts - good facts, intelligent thought, far FAR better than the article it's beneath.

Which might be how come I very often know more about what's what than you do.

Remember that Slovenian I've mentioned a few times that destroyed all-comers with facts?  Plenty of snippers tried to 'out' her (so someone might pay a visit, how lovely), not a single one of them could beat her with facts.

(she also laid into the UK for brexit, btw)

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, LJS said:

As I said - goalposts being shifted & definition of "Anti-English" being stretched to breaking point. 

But not misplaced all the same. Believing that another country should pay your country's pensions is not the carey-sharey you like to say indy and Scotland is, and when that other country is the one indy is supposedly about escaping the clutches of, it doesn't take a genius to see what lies behind it and why it was felt suitable for publication and dissemination to the indy faithful.

And from a website that you've called mainstream.

[LJS]

52 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 I'm not going to stop posting truth, so you'll have to keep on falsely denying it and it'll go on forever, or you'll have to accept it enough to stop arguing back.

 

Says the man who has consistently and persistently lied about what I have said.

Says the man who has regularly and blatantly lied about what Comfy has said. 

Says the man who has wilfully and knowingly lied about what Sturgeon has said.

Says the man who has incredibly and outrageously lied about what he himself has said.

You remind me of this chap-  you'll be old enough to remember him..

11 April 1995: Jonathan Aitken unsheathes his sword of truth

'If it falls to me to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of fair play, so be it. I am ready for the fight,' he said.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Former cabinet minister Jonathan Aitken was jailed at the Old Bailey today for 18 months after admitting perjury and perverting the course of justice.

Time for a song, I think

 

 

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

Says the man who has wilfully and knowingly lied about what Sturgeon has said.

Sturgeon has never said "Scotland is a country" as a claim of greater rights for Scotland than other places....?

Get to fuck. :rolleyes:

Salmond did it clear as day last week, and you won't even admit what he was doing there.

Turns out there only nutters to the indy campaign if you keep up with this sort of guff.

[LJS]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

  your opinion ain't worth shit anyway. You'd deny your mother if she wasn't on side with indy.

 

This is precisely the sort of offensive and unnecessary bile that goes on BTL. It's no surprise that you are so much at home there.

For your information, my mother passed away about a year before the Indyref - you don't need to apologise - she was 90 & her Duracell batteries had well and truly run out. She would never have had any truck with independence as it happened.

And no, I didn't murder her to stop her voting no!

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

This is precisely the sort of offensive and unnecessary bile that goes on BTL.

Oh FFS.

It's the sort of stuff YOU cause to happen when you won't even address the question I've been asking for a month about what's civic in claiming greater rights for Scotland *EXACTLY* as Salmond did in the HoC last week.

You won't even admit that's what he was doing, yet anyone but a snipper could not take any other meaning from his words.

You deny GERS, a publication of your beloved SNP, and call articles that deny GERS "excellent". You deny your beloved SNP's leadership's own words too.

Edited March 20, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Oh FFS.

It's the sort of stuff YOU cause to happen when you won't even address the question I've been asking for a month about what's civic in claiming greater rights for Scotland *EXACTLY* as Salmond did in the HoC last week.

You won't even admit that's what he was doing, yet anyone but a snipper could not take any other meaning from his words.

You deny GERS, a publication of your beloved SNP, and call articles that deny GERS "excellent". You deny your beloved SNP's leadership's own words too.

Sorry, I missed one off my list

Says the man who endlessly and monotonously lies about people not answering his question and just keeps repeating the question.

Thanks for the reminder.

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Genuine question 

What do these number represent Neil ? Is it " hits " per day ?

Can we move on from you saying that me or LJS don`t think that any indy supporters are idiots please. very tedious and worryingly folk might be starting to believe you....unless that`s the plan 

Kaos mentioned a while back about folk ( can`t remember if it was him or someone he knew ) being called a traitor. That is horrible stuff and totally unacceptable.

I've been called it on twitter, but I don't take that seriously. Someone I know got a tirade of abuse in a pub in Glasgow, which should be considered unacceptable, yet it's happened to them on more than one occasion.

1 hour ago, LJS said:

You started reading the Daily Express? Could you give examples of him organising hate-attacks on the English? Just two would do.

You'll need to stop visiting it so often & boosting its hit rate!

No. I hadn't heard about the Daily Express thing that happened until I googled just now.

WoS' twitter retweeted a comment I'd made about Sturgeon during the 2015 election results, 2 months after, with a follow-up comment about an English idiot blaming the SNP for our Tories. I then had 5 days of constant abuse and flame on twitter, during which I made about 60 blocks. I don't even have 50 followers (and have no interest in accumulating a number).

Though at your prompting and a quick google, the daily express thing makes two.

I haven't visited it in 4 years and I don't intend to again.

[LJS]

16 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

I've been called it on twitter, but I don't take that seriously. Someone I know got a tirade of abuse in a pub in Glasgow, which should be considered unacceptable, yet it's happened to them on more than one occasion.

Of course it is unacceptable but, between you and me, people get tirades of abuse in pubs the length and breadth of the land for all sorts of reasons. None of them should happen. 

16 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

No. I hadn't heard about the Daily Express thing that happened until I googled just now.

WoS' twitter retweeted a comment I'd made about Sturgeon during the 2015 election results, 2 months after, with a follow-up comment about an English idiot blaming the SNP for our Tories. I then had 5 days of constant abuse and flame on twitter, during which I made about 60 blocks. I don't even have 50 followers (and have no interest in accumulating a number).

Though at your prompting and a quick google, the daily express thing makes two.

I haven't visited it in 4 years and I don't intend to again.

I mentioned the Daily Express because it, not unsurprisingly, hates Wings, I certainly wasn't aware thatiWings had organised a hate-attack on the Express, indeed I'm still not aware of that. I am aware that WOS described an Express journalist an "utter disgrace"  - if that is a hate-attack then Christ knows what Neil is guilty of. Indeed, I commented earlier Stuart Campbell reminds me of Neil - they are both similarly rude and abrasive, pretty fanatical in their beliefs, and are not slow to insult anyone twho disagrees with them. .

I also misinterpreted your allegations of "hate-attacks against the English" as being actual attacks, not some people being rude to you on twitter. 

 

[pink_triangle]

My view is that overall most British people are decent folk. I dont believe being Scottish makes someone more or less kind and compassionate. Neither di I think it makes someone more or less racist or selfish. 

[eFestivals]

Currency.

I'm not going to say Sturgeon is wrong to say use the pound initially. It is the sensible starting option.

And it's just as sensible to say that if Scotland is heading for the EU that also means its own currency, and then the euro - accepted, officially, in principle even if it never happens. That's the EU rules.

So the Indy campaign should embrace these facts, so why won't it?

[Comfy Bean]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Currency.

I'm not going to say Sturgeon is wrong to say use the pound initially. It is the sensible starting option.

And it's just as sensible to say that if Scotland is heading for the EU that also means its own currency, and then the euro - accepted, officially, in principle even if it never happens. That's the EU rules.

So the Indy campaign should embrace these facts, so why won't it?

As I said earlier, pound as starting point but would expect to hear more once the Indy ref is confirmed.

[LJS]

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Currency.

I'm not going to say Sturgeon is wrong to say use the pound initially. It is the sensible starting option.

And it's just as sensible to say that if Scotland is heading for the EU that also means its own currency, and then the euro - accepted, officially, in principle even if it never happens. That's the EU rules.

So the Indy campaign should embrace these facts, so why won't it?

 

8 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As I said earlier, pound as starting point but would expect to hear more once the Indy ref is confirmed.

So, you are both correct to say that sturgeon said... "The starting point for consideration is that Scotland would use the pound.

"It's our currency, it's a fully tradeable international currency; " and this had been widely reported.

what hasn't been given quite as much prominence is what she went on to say next..."but as I am sure you know I have a growth committee right now looking at a plan for the economic future of Scotland, but also looking in detail at currency options for Scotland."

My reading of this, is that she isn't about to speculate about currency while her boffins are working on the masterplan.

I don't doubt for a minute that sturgeon understands that a rerun of 2014's "blue skies and eternal sunshine" prospectus won't work in 2019 or 2021 or whenever. But she also understands that revealing her plans before a referendum has even been agreed would be madness.

Most hardline  opponents of Indy don't think a plausible currency and economic plan is possible which makes one wonder why they are all so desperate to stop indyref 2.

I don't know if you've noticed comfy, but Patrick Harvie is under vicious and sustained attack from the no side on social media for selling out to the SNP & allegedly (and wrongly) going against their manifesto in agreeing to support indyref2.

[Comfy Bean]

Neil can you perhaps put a rough estimate on the numbers or percentage of YES voters you believe are driven by anti English sentiment.

You are using terms like vast numbers and significant amounts which sounds a lot but is pretty vague. 

Whats your best guess ?

Less than 1 %

More than 20 %

50 %

Quite a large number of people living in Scotland voted for Indy.

I think 2 post on here. We can maybe agree, roughly, on the numbers expressing their views on the other sites you and ljs mentioned then we can factor in the newspaper roasters.

It could be in the hundreds but I'm guessing not all of these folk hate the English ?

I had a google for the number of people charged with offences that were tied in to the Indy ref. Was nosey to see how many it was from both sides.

It was a draw. Happy to stand corrected on this if anyone has a link to any stats or relevant data.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

My view is that overall most British people are decent folk. I dont believe being Scottish makes someone more or less kind and compassionate. Neither di I think it makes someone more or less racist or selfish. 

Possibly the most sensible post of the day (apart from all of mIne of course )

[LOCHLAND5]

Theresa May doing better job than Nicola Sturgeon: Scottish poll

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-doing-better-job-than-nicola-sturgeon-scottish-poll-10809174

[LJS]

33 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Neil can you perhaps put a rough estimate on the numbers or percentage of YES voters you believe are driven by anti English sentiment.

You are using terms like vast numbers and significant amounts which sounds a lot but is pretty vague. 

Whats your best guess ?

Less than 1 %

More than 20 %

50 %

Quite a large number of people living in Scotland voted for Indy.

I think 2 post on here. We can maybe agree, roughly, on the numbers expressing their views on the other sites you and ljs mentioned then we can factor in the newspaper roasters.

It could be in the hundreds but I'm guessing not all of these folk hate the English ?

I had a google for the number of people charged with offences that were tied in to the Indy ref. Was nosey to see how many it was from both sides.

It was a draw. Happy to stand corrected on this if anyone has a link to any stats or relevant data.

I'll get my tuppenceworth in on this. I do hope no one minds.

I have had a wee trip down Google lane & I can't find any poll figures or anything in anyway scientific to put any sort of figure on the level of anti - English sentiment either amongst the Scots as a whole or SNP/Indy supporters in particular.

In the absence of any hard evidence, it's hardly surprising that various conflicting and often quite extreme positions are taken up.

So, as I've said before, I won't deny that there is anti-English sentiment in Scotland. My argument is that, it is almost entirely resident on the internet. I'll stress that this is my opinion but in support of it, I would point out that there are close to 1/2 million English folk resident in Scotland. If there were significant levels of anti- English racism, they wouldn't hang about. I mean, I think Scotland has a lot going for it, but even I don't think it is so much better than England that folk would tolerate abuse to stay here..

My other argument (& this applies, more specifically to the Indy movement) is that there is an argument that Native born Scots voted for Indy in 2014 7 their dream was stolen by voters form England & the rest of the UK voting no. Is anti English sentiment was a significant thing, surely there would be some sort of backlash?

Barely a murmur.

I will admit that we are fiercely anti-English when it comes to sport, particularly football  - but then the English don't care for the Germans too much But even there there is no significant football outlet for actually doing anything (beyond singing songs) amongst the Tartan Army. We long ago gave up trying to complete with the serious football hooligans of this world and decided to compete for the World's most amiable drunks award.

So, in conclusion, we have nutters  - no doubt about it and there undoubtedly is some anti-English resentment & even a wee bit of hatred but very little of it surfaces into the light of day because the cretins that hold these views realise that their medieval bigotry is no longer acceptable in a modern and inclusive Scotland.  Just as it isn't in the rest of UK.

 

 

 

[LJS]

15 minutes ago, LOCHLAND5 said:

Theresa May doing better job than Nicola Sturgeon: Scottish poll

http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-doing-better-job-than-nicola-sturgeon-scottish-poll-10809174

 

It is far from clear if this is a proper poll or not - 

It tellingly doesn't say who carried it out or when. In fact it tells you nothing at all.

Yougov  however are a reputable pollster who we know weight their samples etc etc.

Quote

Theresa May has a rating of -10 among all Scots – rising to +17 to those who voted against independence in 2014. Nicola Sturgeon, the SNP Scottish first minister, has an approval rating of +16. Kezia Dugdale, Labour’s leader in Scotland, has a net approval rating of -16. 

http://labourlist.org/2017/03/scots-back-the-union-with-corbyn-given-56-approval-rating-in-scotland/

If you are a real anorak, here are the data tables just to prove that Labour list aren't inflating Sturgeon's popularity.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/k39gmatrzb/Times_Scotland_Results_170314_VI_Indy2_Trade_Domestic_Website.pdf

[kaosmark2]

3 hours ago, LJS said:

Of course it is unacceptable but, between you and me, people get tirades of abuse in pubs the length and breadth of the land for all sorts of reasons. None of them should happen. 

I mentioned the Daily Express because it, not unsurprisingly, hates Wings, I certainly wasn't aware thatiWings had organised a hate-attack on the Express, indeed I'm still not aware of that. I am aware that WOS described an Express journalist an "utter disgrace"  - if that is a hate-attack then Christ knows what Neil is guilty of. Indeed, I commented earlier Stuart Campbell reminds me of Neil - they are both similarly rude and abrasive, pretty fanatical in their beliefs, and are not slow to insult anyone twho disagrees with them. .

I also misinterpreted your allegations of "hate-attacks against the English" as being actual attacks, not some people being rude to you on twitter. 

Yes, but a specific campaign is triggering specific natures of it. 

OK, I didn't intend to mislead you with the phrasing "hate-attack". Lets describe it as "orchestrated racist bullying".

Some people being on twitter is one thing. An orchestrated 80-person spree of aggression, with notifications every 10s for periods of several hours, over 3 days, is cyber-bullying. Indeed, wings' twitter account got banned because of doing that.

He's well aware what he's doing as well, it's not a thing of he's criticising someone with no understanding of what follows. It's intentional, organised and hate-filled.

Neil is not pressuring others into abusing you. He isn't trying to make everyone on his website bombard you with insults.

[LOCHLAND5]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

It is far from clear if this is a proper poll or not - 

It tellingly doesn't say who carried it out or when. In fact it tells you nothing at all.

Yougov  however are a reputable pollster who we know weight their samples etc etc.

If you are a real anorak, here are the data tables just to prove that Labour list aren't inflating Sturgeon's popularity.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/k39gmatrzb/Times_Scotland_Results_170314_VI_Indy2_Trade_Domestic_Website.pdf

 

 

The Sky Data survey of more than 2,000 people with registered addresses in Scotland put the Prime Minister's approval rating at six percentage points higher than Scotland's First Minister.

Edited March 20, 2017 by LOCHLAND5

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Yes, but a specific campaign is triggering specific natures of it. 

I don't know what this means.

3 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

OK, I didn't intend to mislead you with the phrasing "hate-attack". Lets describe it as "orchestrated racist bullying".

Wings has lots of followers (just for the record I am not one) some of them are a bit mental. I am not aware of him deliberately "orchestrating" any attacks or bullying. i do think that he should be more cautious in what he posts - as much as anything else he ain't helping the cause of independence by condoning people being rude on twitter. But at the end of the day the "bullying" you experienced was folk being rude to you on twitter.  

3 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Some people being on twitter is one thing. An orchestrated 80-person spree of aggression, with notifications every 10s for periods of several hours, over 3 days, is cyber-bullying. Indeed, wings' twitter account got banned because of doing that.

And was very quickly reinstated

3 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

He's well aware what he's doing as well, it's not a thing of he's criticising someone with no understanding of what follows. It's intentional, organised and hate-filled.

i disagree. but the truth is neither of us can see inside his mind & why motivates him.

3 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Neil is not pressuring others into abusing you. He isn't trying to make everyone on his website bombard you with insults.

I'm not sure that you have any evidence that Stuart Campbell is doing that either. If he is, he is even madder than you think- why would he target you? I don't want to disappoint you, Kaos, but I don't think you are a major threat to the independence project.

However the world would be a better place without the RevStu's fanatical following.