The Dirty Independence Question

[kaosmark2]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

In other words  they wouldn't veto an independent Scotland joining the EU. 

Thanks Kaos.

In other words, Scotland won't be able to maintain EU membership by leaving the UK. It'll have to go through the entry process with no encouragement or acceleration.

[eFestivals]

so that's that then. Shortest indy campaign in history, and you still lost. 

Still, Sturgeon had a plan for a vote but no plan for after the vote, which is an evil plan, so Sturgeon says.

In all seriousness, I think May has been foolish in how she's gone about it, but the why she's gone at it is very reasonable. How the fuck can you have a vote for indy when you don't know what you're voting for or what you're voting against?

And if the million comments I've already read that say "May has just guaranteed Scotland will vote indy at the next chance it gets" are really true, why the anger? It means that the horrible English have delivered to Scotland what Scotland couldn't deliver for itself, and was going to fail to give itself again to its own timetable.

So why the anger? 

Oh, I see. It's all bollocks all the time, and indy losing is a forever-constant. That explains the anger then.

Edited March 27, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

56 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so that's that then. Shortest indy campaign in history, and you still lost. 

Still, Sturgeon had a plan for a vote but no plan for after the vote, which is an evil plan, so Sturgeon says.

In all seriousness, I think May has been foolish in how she's gone about it, but the why she's gone at it is very reasonable. How the fuck can you have a vote for indy when you don't know what you're voting for or what you're voting against?

And if the million comments I've already read that say "May has just guaranteed Scotland will vote indy at the next chance it gets" are really true, why the anger? It means that the horrible English have delivered to Scotland what Scotland couldn't deliver for itself, and was going to fail to give itself again to its own timetable.

So why the anger? 

Oh, I see. It's all bollocks all the time, and indy losing is a forever-constant. That explains the anger then.

How have we lost  exactly? As you have so wisely pointed out, we haven't even asked for a referendum yet.

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, LJS said:

How have we lost  exactly? As you have so wisely pointed out, we haven't even asked for a referendum yet.

Ahh, true.

That gets done tomorrow, with everyone involved knowing they're wasting their time.

That gets sent to Westminster, and gets returned with a "weren't you listening?" note attached.

And then it's over, until such time as the brexit deal is clear, when Sturgeon is in a position to know whether the deal with the EU that the UK has is better or worse than the deal she documented which she said would be an acceptable deal.

Better?  

[LJS]

8 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

In other words, Scotland won't be able to maintain EU membership by leaving the UK. It'll have to go through the entry process with no encouragement or acceleration.

There are lots of different views on this. Neil has given his view which you appear to agree with. I certainly don't have Neil's certainty (who does?) and I'm certainly not claiming that Scotland will waltz in in the twinkling of an eye but I do believe that Neil (and yourself) are a tad on the gloomy side regarding Scotland's prospects for a relatively early entry into the EU and perhaps some sort of interim arrangement in the meantime.

But even if it takes a few years, I'm sad to say, it would be worth the wait, to be out of Lidl Britain and its increasingly narrow blinkered isolationist stance.

[LJS]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

and yet latest polling says....

Latest polling?

Fieldwork dates: 23rd Feb – 27th Feb 2017. Bang up to date there - has anythgin happened at all since then? 

Nah, not much

 

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

over-65's are more against indy than in 2014 ... but don't worry, snippers can all wish them dead more than snippers have been doing for the last 3 years.

And 16-24 year olds split 74-26 for indy. Maybe they can talk to their grannies.

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

And more yes voters from 2014 plan to vote no next time than no voters plan to vote yes.

But the overall yes/no split was 52 - 48. Pretty close wouldn't you say?

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I see Scots still like people called Blair... tho not really so surprising, as the SNP are more Blairite than Blair was.  

And I see he claims a moral victory for last time for being 'more' everything, tho he's missed 'more liars' from his list, which has since been exposed as that lie.

plenty of lies from "better" together.

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

And we're still waiting for the new lies, along with the plan that everyone needs to have before making a choice according to the woman who's already made her choice but without a plan to choose over.

People believe in Indy believe for all sorts of different reasons. The realists know that a different case needs to be made this time to convince the fearful & the doubters. But you needn't worry about that. Your union is safe because according to you such a case is impossible to make

 

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

It's still all about the money, and until the indy campaign are prepared to discuss the money it's going nowhere.

Have patience, Neil. It'll come. I'm sure you will understand that there is nothing to be gained in rushing out financial plans before a referendum date is even announced. 

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

There are lots of different views on this. Neil has given his view which you appear to agree with. I certainly don't have Neil's certainty (who does?) and I'm certainly not claiming that Scotland will waltz in in the twinkling of an eye but I do believe that Neil (and yourself) are a tad on the gloomy side regarding Scotland's prospects for a relatively early entry into the EU and perhaps some sort of interim arrangement in the meantime.

But even if it takes a few years, I'm sad to say, it would be worth the wait, to be out of Lidl Britain and its increasingly narrow blinkered isolationist stance.

Every other EU member followed the accession rules.

But Scotland is special so it doesn't have to?

[LJS]

31 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Every other EU member followed the accession rules.

But Scotland is special so it doesn't have to?

Special, Neil? You mean Exceptional, surely?

Can you see any way in which Scotland's situation is in anyway different from all the other countries who have joined?

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

But the overall yes/no split was 52 - 48. Pretty close wouldn't you say?

There were better polls than that before losing last time, and still losing is still losing.

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

plenty of lies from "better" together.

Really? are you going to tell me the vow was a lie, like 23% of scots who didn't notice smith and the new Scoltland act?

Who lied about oil revenues and based 15% of their country's spending on their lie? Only the snippers, who also defended the lie to the hilt - until it was proven as that lie.

And if you can find a better together lie, care to show me how that better together lie would be anything like the same national disaster?

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

People believe in Indy believe for all sorts of different reasons. The realists know that a different case needs to be made this time to convince the fearful & the doubters. But you needn't worry about that. Your union is safe because according to you such a case is impossible to make

The realists who spread lies, like GERS is a lie? The denialist sort of realists, you mean?

Even the SNP are starting to push that the govt they run are lying to their own party. It doesn't get more insane than that.

The real realists already know that there can't be a rational case. Your own FM made that clear when she started trying to sell the "indy transends everything" line.

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

Have patience, Neil. It'll come. I'm sure you will understand that there is nothing to be gained in rushing out financial plans before a referendum date is even announced. 

Oh right, well, if there's no rush, why has Sturgeon been criticising May for not rushing forwards to show Sturgeon the brexit plan?

It seems that Sturgeon thinks a plan for brexit is essential to know we shouldn't brexit, but no plan is needed to know that indy is the best thing eva.

I guess that's because indy transends brexit, the economy, and all sense ... cos otherwise, how could Sturgeon know that indy is better when she doesn't even have an indy plan?

I'm looking forwards to Sturgeon's pet commission saying that Scotland will have the best growth in the developed world and rubbishing the SG while it does it.

I'll be laughing my nuts off, while you'll be sincerely telling everyone it's true, that Scotland really is exceptional.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

Special, Neil? You mean Exceptional, surely?

Can you see any way in which Scotland's situation is in anyway different from all the other countries who have joined?

Nope.

All the other new members weren't members either.

To become a member, you have to do what members do.

Of course, those other members love Scotland so much, they'll think it's OK, that Scotland doesn't have to do what lesser-them had to do.

After all, Scotland is super-special and everyone gives it a break, and especially because they all hate England too. They all love Scotland and all hate England but that's just a fact, it's not anything driven by any anti-English in you, right?

[LJS]

56 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Nope.

All the other new members weren't members either.

Not even as part of a larger country? And their citizens were all EU citizens. Course they were. No difference.

56 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

To become a member, you have to do what members do.

Of course, those other members love Scotland so much, they'll think it's OK, that Scotland doesn't have to do what lesser-them had to do.

To join the club you got to obey the rules. Who knew? 

56 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

After all, Scotland is super-special and everyone gives it a break, and especially because they all hate England too. They all love Scotland and all hate England but that's just a fact, it's not anything driven by any anti-English in you, right?

What a load of shite.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

Not even as part of a larger country? And their citizens were all EU citizens. Course they were. No difference.

There's no "EU citizens", there are only membership rights - and Scotland is not a member and has no rights.

And not only that, Scotland will not have membership via the UK, either. So Scotland will be 100% identical to all other applicants, a non-member, who has to be put thru the ringer to see if it meets accession criteria (which it doesn't at the moment by a very! long way).

Sturgeon has begged for a hint from the EU, there's been none.

Her "brexit guru" has been told to fuck off by the Spanish for making false claims about what the Spanish attitudes are.

Snippers lie about the EU, snippers lie about the deficit, snippers lie about oil, snippers lie about who has plans and who doesn't, snippers lie about everything. Lies are all they have.

Just think how different this discussion would be if even one thing was in Scotland's favour and you didn't have to lie about it.

Edited March 28, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

To join the club you got to obey the rules. Who knew? 

I did.

You're the guy who doesn't, because you're saying that super-special Scotland will be treated in a super-special way because Scotland is super-special.

And then you say your own claims of super-specialness for Scotland are...

9 minutes ago, LJS said:

What a load of shite.

... as if I didn't know already.  

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, LJS said:

Not even as part of a larger country? And their citizens were all EU citizens. Course they were. No difference.

Can I suggest you try a few analogies with the same idea for the whole-UK and for Scotland, and see how you get on?

</and then came only silence because LJS's head exploded when he realised his arse was his mouth>

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

There were better polls than that before losing last time, and still losing is still losing.

So?...

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Really? are you going to tell me the vow was a lie, like 23% of scots who didn't notice smith and the new Scoltland act?

A lot of the rhetoric around it was a lie.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Who lied about oil revenues and based 15% of their country's spending on their lie? Only the snippers, who also defended the lie to the hilt - until it was proven as that lie.

And if you can find a better together lie, care to show me how that better together lie would be anything like the same national disaster?

A large part of the BT case was based on voting no to stay in the EU and scaring pensioners.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

The realists who spread lies, like GERS is a lie? The denialist sort of realists, you mean?

It's amazing how touchy you & your mates are about a bit of criticism of GERS. I'm thoroughly enjoying the show.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Even the SNP are starting to push that the govt they run are lying to their own party. It doesn't get more insane than that.

The Scottish government is responsible for compiling GERS. Where do the raw "stats" come from though? How many of them are stats & how many are guesstimates? The only sure stat is that number of them that give reliable figures for Indy Scotland is precisely zero.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

The real realists already know that there can't be a rational case. Your own FM made that clear when she started trying to sell the "indy transends everything" line.

I beg to differ. It seems crystal clear that sturgeon knows full well that a rational case must be made. But as that is impossible, there's no need for you & your mates to worry.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

Oh right, well, if there's no rush, why has Sturgeon been criticising May for not rushing forwards to show Sturgeon the brexit plan?

Hilarious

It's fine to have no plan for brexit 9 months after the vote but it's out of order to have no plan for Indy 2 years before a vote we're not allowed to have. Yeah that makes sense.

 

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

It seems that Sturgeon thinks a plan for brexit is essential to know we shouldn't brexit, but no plan is needed to know that indy is the best thing eva.

You're so impatient this morning, Neil.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I guess that's because indy transends brexit, the economy, and all sense ... cos otherwise, how could Sturgeon know that indy is better when she doesn't even have an indy plan?

You really don't get it Neil. It's so sad. You just can't see past the money.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I'm looking forwards to Sturgeon's pet commission saying that Scotland will have the best growth in the developed world and rubbishing the SG while it does it.

You need to let this little invention of yours go Neil. 

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I'll be laughing my nuts off, while you'll be sincerely telling everyone it's true, that Scotland really is exceptional.

That's right Neil like all these other times I've claimed Scotland is exceptional.

 If you could get all your empty meaningless slogans out of your head, I think you would see much clearer 

[LJS]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

There's no "EU citizens", there are only membership rights - and Scotland is not a member and has no rights.

And not only that, Scotland will not have membership via the UK, either. So Scotland will be 100% identical to all other applicants, a non-member, who has to be put thru the ringer to see if it meets accession criteria (which it doesn't at the moment by a very! long way).

Sturgeon has begged for a hint from the EU, there's been none.

Her "brexit guru" has been told to fuck off by the Spanish for making false claims about what the Spanish attitudes are.

Snippers lie about the EU, snippers lie about the deficit, snippers lie about oil, snippers lie about who has plans and who doesn't, snippers lie about everything. Lies are all they have.

Just think how different this discussion would be if even one thing was in Scotland's favour and you didn't have to lie about it.

Fish.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

A lot of the rhetoric around it was a lie.

yeah yeah.

It's what you say to deflect from the big lie that was the SNP, the white paper, and you who defended them and still do.

[LJS]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

There's no "EU citizens", there are only membership rights - and Scotland is not a member and has no rights.

 

Citizenship of the European Union was introduced by the Maastricht Treaty, which was signed in 1992, and has been in force since 1993. European Union citizenship is additional^[1] to national citizenship. The EU citizenship affords rights, freedoms and legal protections to its citizens.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

A large part of the BT case was based on voting no to stay in the EU and scaring pensioners.

A large part - A FULL PART - of the SNP case was to take scotland out of the EU, but it didn't bother you then.

As for scaring pensioners, the SNP promised a 10% rise. Scots didn't believe Scots, and found the Westminster promise of parity of pensions with the rest of the UK the more believable case.

Which is hardly surprising given the economic case the SNP put forwards, which would mean Scotland was essentially bankrupt now and those pensioners would be getting less.

Scotland run by Scots from Scotland would be better? Not in the view of Scots.

 

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, LJS said:

Citizenship of the European Union was introduced by the Maastricht Treaty, which was signed in 1992, and has been in force since 1993. European Union citizenship is additional^[1] to national citizenship. The EU citizenship affords rights, freedoms and legal protections to its citizens.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union

It's 'right' acquired thru membership. It's a 'right' that evaporates with membership.

Which means it's not a 'right'. Rights exist on their own merits, not tied to anything else. Do you have a right to life, but only while the SNP are the govt?

But even if it fitted the standard idea of 'rights', there's no such thing. There is only current thinking.

Anyway, here's the EU deal, laid out in a truthful manner via analogy that clearly shows it as the transient thing it is....

All pensioners have rights to a state pension, until they don't have rights to a state pension. See what I mean?

All citizens have a right to free treatment from the NHS, until such time as there's no right to free treatment from the NHS. See what I mean?

Scots currently have rights to UK citizenship that cannot be revoked .... that is, until after indy, when Scotland can expect the same right of UK citizenship as the Irish got - none at all.

Which makes complaints about the revocation of 'EU citizenship' the most stupid thing you've ever said, as you're quite happy to revoke the UK citizenship of Scots.  

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

5 hours ago, LJS said:

Fish.

Barry.

[LJS]

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

It's 'right' acquired thru membership. It's a 'right' that evaporates with membership.

Which means it's not a 'right'. Rights exist on their own merits, not tied to anything else. Do you have a right to life, but only while the SNP are the govt?

I never mentioned rights. You did. Why? To distract attention from the rather embarrassing fact that Neil, the great all knowing, treaty reading EU expert didn't know EU citizenship was a thing. Imagine how many other things he might be wrong about?

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

But even if it fitted the standard idea of 'rights', there's no such thing. There is only current thinking.

There is such a thing. It's in the Maastricht treaty. Did you not read that one?

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Anyway, here's the EU deal, laid out in a truthful manner via analogy that clearly shows it as the transient thing it is....

All pensioners have rights to a state pension, until they don't have rights to a state pension. See what I mean?

Oh, look you're talking about rights again. Who said anything about rights?

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

All citizens have a right to free treatment from the NHS, until such time as there's no right to free treatment from the NHS. See what I mean?

Yes I see you are trying to deflect attention from your ignorance.

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Scots currently have rights to UK citizenship that cannot be revoked .... that is, until after indy, when Scotland can expect the same right of UK citizenship as the Irish got - none at all.

You put your right leg in...

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Which makes complaints about the revocation of 'EU citizenship' the most stupid thing you've ever said, as you're quite happy to revoke the UK citizenship of Scots.  

 

Can you point out where I have complained about the revocation of our EU citizenship?

Of course you can't. Because like most things you claim I've said, you just made it up.

[LJS]

Anyway, our wee parliament had a wee vote today. In case anyone missed it our msp's decided they'd rather like a referendum so those of us who live in Scotland can have a say on which of the 2 recent referendum results best reflects our views because we sure can't have both.

I have a feeling that today will one day be seen as a decisive moment in determining who eventually wins the Scottish independence war.  The problem is, it's hard to be sure in whose favour it will be decisive. 

The most obvious view is to say TMay & the Union side will prevail as ultimately, they have a veto on any indyref. Barring unforeseen events (& it would be foolish to rule these out) she can probably hold the line against a referendum until the next Holyrood elections.

However, that runs the risk of making that election effectively into an indyref. 

How will the Tories' apparent outright rejection of the Scottish government's request go down with swing voters in Scotland? As things stand, the UK prime minister hasn't even deemed the vote important enough to merit a response, sending out her one Scottish MP to not only reject a referendum but also to reject even the prospect of any discussion on the matter.

I'm far from sure that is a wise strategy.

It would be no surprise if some - and not just die-hard Nats - saw that as being dismissive & disrespectful.

Ignoring a request from a democratically elected parliament whilst ploughing a head with a course of action rejected by a clear majority of those who elected that parliament, isn't a great position.

Of course, in reality, much probably hangs on how brexit negotiations go over the next 18 months. If TMay's team can negotiate some stellar trade deals including some sort of access to the EU market on some sort of reasonable terms & the economy keeps ticking along, enough doubters up here might be swung back on board the UK brexit bus.

Interesting times....

On a related note, I see more trouble ahead for Scottish Labour. Assuming Kezia sticks with her hard line anti Indyref stance, in opposition to a democratic vote of the Scottish parliament, does this run the risk of her losing the support of the 25% of labour voters who still support Indy? They surely can't afford to lose any more support?

 

.

[russycarps]

In other news, you're riiiiiiiiiiiich!

https://www.ft.com/content/7448d5be-108d-11e7-a88c-50ba212dce4d

[pink_triangle]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

, sending out her one Scottish MP to not only reject a referendum but also to reject even the prospect of any discussion on the matter.

If you weren't playing politics and using words to create the maximum impact you could say the Scottish secretary instead!

Slightly off topic but are the jobs of Scottish and Welsh secretary the cushiest jobs in the cabinet. I imagine both could walk down any high street in their respective countries and nobody would know who they are