The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

Can you point out where I have complained about the revocation of our EU citizenship?

Of course you can't. Because like most things you claim I've said, you just made it up.

then your point was....?

Reading back, I see you don't have one, just the normal deflective bollocks from an awkward discussion.

So, back to some real questions. Where's the missing £15Bn coming from so that the SG don't have to make much bigger cuts than any tory?

 

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

Anyway, our wee parliament had a wee vote today.

It did.

It had a vote about something it has no powers for. I voted myself a stately home yesterday. 

That's because Scotland isn't sovereign, because Scots in Scotland self-determined to remain a part of the UK.

To which your glorious leader disagrees, not because of any facts. But because of a matter of faith. A religion.

So she holds a vote, on the basis that that if May won't give Sturgeon the sovereign power she claimed to have when...

1. she tried to claim Scotland had a veto over the UK decision for the EU ref (very democratic, not).

2. she claimed that all parts must opt-in to a decision to make it valid (unless the decision is scottish indy, then different self-serving rules apply, very democratic, not)

....so Sturgeon has a vote, a vote she likes, where bribes are made and accepted, so Sturgeon knows this is one vote she can win.

A vote to say that as the UK (and Scots!) won't accept that Scotland is sovereign, Sturgeon going to threaten to be sovereign.

A vote to 'take back control', just like Farage.

To make Scotland great again, just like Trump.

To put Scotland first, just like all greedy selfish fucks want for themselves.

But she can't can she? Because Scots in Scotland think Scots in Scotland are better served by Englishmen in England than by Scots like you or Sturgeon.

That's awkward.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

How will the Tories' apparent outright rejection of the Scottish government's request go down with swing voters in Scotland?

Or alternatively....

How will Sturgeon's outright rejection of the Scottish people's wishes go down with the swing voters in Scotland?

Swing voters in Scotland who know that Scotland is not sovereign, and who freely self-determined for Scotland not to be sovereign.

There's evil May, who is going with the clear and demonstrable wishes of the people, on the exact terms of the vote and the exact terms of what Scotland clearly self-determined.

And then there's saintly Sturgeon, leader of the Scottish people, who rejects the views of the Scottish people, who rejects the results of two democratic votes, who claims democracy while going against her own word as well as those votes, as well as going against the wishes of the people she supposedly represents.

I wonder who's going to come out on top, when only around 60% of indy supporters are the hardcore unthinking types?

Edited March 29, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

It would be no surprise if some - and not just die-hard Nats - saw that as being dismissive & disrespectful.

Yup, some are definitely seeing the dismissive and disrespectful.

I think there's a clue for who sees it more with the UK's preference for May's respect for the EUref result to the alternative of the rejection of democracy.

By somewhere around 2:1 to 3:1.

But hey, perhaps my take is wrong. You'll be very happy if it is.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

It did.

It had a vote about something it has no powers for. I voted myself a stately home yesterday. 

Gosh, we have no "powers" to ask westminster 's permission to hold a referendum.

And I was sure we had  "one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world"

 

[eFestivals]

32 minutes ago, LJS said:

Gosh, we have no "powers" to ask westminster 's permission to hold a referendum.

The SG has powers to ask, just as Westminster has powers to refuse.

Sturgeon is pretending that it's an outrage for Westminster to refuse. It's not.

Fancy that, eh? Fake outrage from the snippers. That's never happened before.

 

32 minutes ago, LJS said:

And I was sure we had  "one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world"

Whether it is or isn't, I'm not aware of a single devolved parliament that holds powers over foreign policy, do you? Cos only if you do can you take the piss in the way you have.

So tell us, LJS, are you blowing billy-big-bollocks again with something you've conveniently - but falsely - invented?

Whatever, if you and the other 30% of non-thinkers don't get that the SG has limited powers, the 70% that think do get it.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Yup, some are definitely seeing the dismissive and disrespectful.

I think there's a clue for who sees it more with the UK's preference for May's respect for the EUref result to the alternative of the rejection of democracy.

By somewhere around 2:1 to 3:1.

But hey, perhaps my take is wrong. You'll be very happy if it is.

 

[LJS]

15 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Or alternatively....

How will Sturgeon's outright rejection of the Scottish people's wishes go down with the swing voters in Scotland?

We'll never know as Sturgeon has done no such thing. 

15 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Swing voters in Scotland who know that Scotland is not sovereign, and who freely self-determined for Scotland not to be sovereign.

And freely voted in a government with a clear mandate to go for a referendum in certain circumstances which ahve come about.

15 hours ago, eFestivals said:

There's evil May, who is going with the clear and demonstrable wishes of the people, on the exact terms of the vote

There was no "exact terms" of the vote. 

15 hours ago, eFestivals said:

and the exact terms of what Scotland clearly self-determined.

See above We have a democratically elected government with a clear mandate. The UK we self -determined to remain in no longer exists.

15 hours ago, eFestivals said:

And then there's saintly Sturgeon, leader of the Scottish people, who rejects the views of the Scottish people, who rejects the results of two democratic votes, who claims democracy while going against her own word as well as those votes, as well as going against the wishes of the people she supposedly represents.

see above...

15 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I wonder who's going to come out on top, when only around 60% of indy supporters are the hardcore unthinking types?

Ignoring your prejudice, it's a good point. I wonder too. Which is kind of the point.

15 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Yup, some are definitely seeing the dismissive and disrespectful.

I think there's a clue for who sees it more with the UK's preference for May's respect for the EUref result to the alternative of the rejection of democracy.

Yup some will see  it that way - I guess it will mainly be the "hardcore unthinking" unionists.

Your problem is you form your view of Scotland from reading what the "hardcore unthinkers" on both sides are saying because these are the guys who populate BTL & twitter & WOS & Lily of St Leonards. The problem is that the opinion of the "hardcore unthinkers" on each side is entirely irrelevant to the way the whole indy debate pans out because rocks will melt in the sun before any of these guys will change their minds. Ordinary punters who don't frequent any of these places are the people who will decide our future. 

15 hours ago, eFestivals said:

By somewhere around 2:1 to 3:1.

Sorry Neil I have no idea what your 2:1 & 3:1 means 

15 hours ago, eFestivals said:

But hey, perhaps my take is wrong. You'll be very happy if it is.

Of course I will. But, although I will no doubt be unable to resist the temptation for a wee gloat - my main pleasure will be that Scotland has chosen hope over fear and liberal democracy over narrow minded isolationism.  The difference between you & me is that I don't know how it will all pan out. Sometimes I am quite confident, other times less so. Right now, my feling is htat the odds are about 50/50 that Scotland will be Independent within the next  10 years. I tend to think if we aren't independent by then, the odds start increasing dramatically.

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

The SG has powers to ask, just as Westminster has powers to refuse.

Westminster has absolute power -it could abolish Holyrood tomorrow if it wished. (there are some who argue that Holyrood has the power ... but it seems a tortuous case & woudl undoubtedly be bogged down in the courts for months or more likely years - so its a non-starter)

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Sturgeon is pretending that it's an outrage for Westminster to refuse. It's not.

That is clearly a matter of opinion. I think the real "outrage" is the refusal to even enter into discussions.

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Fancy that, eh? Fake outrage from the snippers. That's never happened before.

Again the fakeness or otherwise of the outrage is entirely a matter of opinion.

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

Whether it is or isn't, I'm not aware of a single devolved parliament that holds powers over foreign policy, do you?

No but I'm not quite sure what foreign policy has to do with anything.  

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 Cos only if you do can you take the piss in the way you have.

So tell us, LJS, are you blowing billy-big-bollocks again

remind me again how old you are?

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

with something you've conveniently - but falsely - invented?

What did i invent was it the "one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world"? bit

Quote

David Cameron: Scotland will be 'strongest devolved government in the world'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11593179/David-Cameron-Scotland-will-be-strongest-devolved-government-in-the-world.html

13 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Whatever, if you and the other 30% of non-thinkers don't get that the SG has limited powers, the 70% that think do get it.

Oh, we get it. The Government's legal argument  in the Brexit case made that crystal clear.

As an aside I note that you  seem to believe that only the 30% committed nationalist don't think. But all the committed unionists do..

good night

[LJS]

Hey Neil, did you watch Andrew Neil's cosy chat with TMay tonight?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08mhh5c/britain-the-eu-the-brexit-interviews-brexit-what-next-the-andrew-neil-interviews
 

Did you notice any difference with his interview with Nicola Sturgeon which you constantly champion?

 

Do you think the two leaders were treated with equal respect?

Do you think Andrew was fulfilling the BBC's charter requirement for impartiality?

I know it is hard to interrupt and effectively challenge someone when your tongue is sunk deep up their arse but he could at least have made an effort.

 

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

We'll never know as Sturgeon has done no such thing. 

Yeah, right, I've just answered you post elsewhere where you're slagging May of for not being democratic about brexit.

Where May is being a damn more democratic than what you back as democratic.

Even Sturgeon knows it. She's just self-annointed herself as perfect with a long list of words, but for some reason she decided to leave the word democratic out of the list. Any ideas why? 

7 hours ago, LJS said:

And freely voted in a government with a clear mandate to go for a referendum in certain circumstances which ahve come about.

that's a lesser mandate than May has for brexit of any type.

And anyway, you're the guy who spent indyref1 saying how you were voting indy but not for the SNP's plan for indy.

Presumably, on the same basis, you'd be saying that if an indy vote was won indy had to be stopped because not everyone had voted for the version of indy you'd get....?

PMSL :lol:

 

Quote

There was no "exact terms" of the vote. 

but, it's fuck-more "exact" than the mandate you claim where votes in favour were unlikely to have been because of what you claim a mandate for.

 

Quote

See above We have a democratically elected government with a clear mandate. The UK we self -determined to remain in no longer exists.

Scotland also has a clear mandate to follow whole-UK decisions, which is a stronger -mandate than the mandate you claim.

The mandate you claim was non-specific. The mandate May claims - even over Scotland - is clear and indisputable.

 

Quote

Ignoring your prejudice, it's a good point. I wonder too. Which is kind of the point.

The guy who claims a specific vote over something is worth less than a non-specific vote is calling another guy prejudiced. That's the same guy who just last week lost his rag when he was nailed for his own.

But yeah, it is a good point, isn't it? The support isn't on your side, or Sturgeon's side.

And even more annoying for you, it is on May's side.

Some of us aren't so weak and pathetic to deny that truth, even when it's not to our liking.

 

Quote

Yup some will see  it that way - I guess it will mainly be the "hardcore unthinking" unionists.

Your problem is you form your view of Scotland from reading what the "hardcore unthinkers" on both sides are saying because these are the guys who populate BTL & twitter & WOS & Lily of St Leonards. The problem is that the opinion of the "hardcore unthinkers" on each side is entirely irrelevant to the way the whole indy debate pans out because rocks will melt in the sun before any of these guys will change their minds. Ordinary punters who don't frequent any of these places are the people who will decide our future. 

Someone who's too stupid to recognise information thinks he's found a flaw in another's information? 

Your desperation is showing. Never mind, eh? 

 

Quote

Sorry Neil I have no idea what your 2:1 & 3:1 means 

My reading of public opinion in Scotland is that more Scots - by something like 2:1 to 3:1 - are pissed off by what they regard as the SNP &/or Greens abuse of their support than they are with May's refusal to allow indyref2.

The ones making the noise about May's refusal to allow indyref2 are the ones who would vote indy in any and all circumstances, and who are trying to use social pressure to have others act in a similar way (see also: all Scots hate the tories, followed by all Scots hate Labour, followed by the reality of all Scots aren't hateful, just some, oh dear )

 

Quote

Of course I will. But, although I will no doubt be unable to resist the temptation for a wee gloat - my main pleasure will be that Scotland has chosen hope over fear and liberal democracy over narrow minded isolationism.  The difference between you & me is that I don't know how it will all pan out. Sometimes I am quite confident, other times less so. Right now, my feling is htat the odds are about 50/50 that Scotland will be Independent within the next  10 years. I tend to think if we aren't independent by then, the odds start increasing dramatically.

I don't claim to know how a future vote will turn out. FFS.

I simply point out what the standing is now. Oh, and I can do addition and subtraction too, to know that spending 25% more than income isn't the 'meaningless' you say it is.

And you'll be gloating while I'll be laughing - at specifically you - knowing that my maths is good and your bluster can't change that, and you've fucked your life and your children's life. The sad thing is that you really know you're doing that, but when hatred and false claims of greater morality drives you, you'll happily punch yourself in the face.  Till you wake up with the bruises.

 

Quote

Westminster has absolute power -it could abolish Holyrood tomorrow if it wished.

Yep.

You do know that Scots are smart enough to know that, don't you?

And that they voted in support of that set-up, trusting those nasty tories more than they trust their fellow Scots.

I'm guessing there's a reason why for that. Perhaps you'd like to explain it to me?

 

Quote

That is clearly a matter of opinion. I think the real "outrage" is the refusal to even enter into discussions.

Outrage, it's your national sport.

Those with working brains know you can't set a meaningful timetable from something with it's own fluid timetable.

They also know that someone condemning another's lack of plans should have their own plan before saying they have a better plan.

 

Quote

Again the fakeness or otherwise of the outrage is entirely a matter of opinion.

fair enough.

If it's not faked, you're just mindnumbingly stupid. You'd have to be.

 

Quote

No but I'm not quite sure what foreign policy has to do with anything.  

Your comment was a complaint that scotland doesn't have 'the most powerful devolved parliament in the world' as some claimed it might.

But your complaint is also because Scotland doesn't have control over forgiegn policy.

Which no devolved parliament does. 

So your complaint is pathetic. Whichever place might have (and it might be Scotland)  'the most powerful devolved parliament in the world', it doesn't have the powers around the current issue.

So to add to the fake outrage, we also have fake complaints.

Is there anything in support of indy that isn't fake? You've yet to present anything.

 

Quote

remind me again how old you are?

Old enough to do maths correctly and old enough to call you out for what you are.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, LJS said:

What did i invent was it the "one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world"? bit

no, what that would mean around this matter. Devolved parliaments don't have foriegn policy powers.

But you think Scotland should do. 

But then again you think Scotland shouldn't have a devolved parliament anyway.

So your complaint about whether it's "one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world" matters not a fuck.

That's not your complaint. That it's a devolved parliament is your complaint.

FFS.

 

7 hours ago, LJS said:

What did i invent was it the "one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world"? bit

no, what that would mean around this matter. Devolved parliaments don't have foriegn policy powers.

But you think Scotland should do. 

But then again you think Scotland shouldn't have a devolved parliament anyway.

So your complaint about whether it's "one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world" matters not a fuck.

That's not your complaint. That it's a devolved parliament is your complaint.

FFS.

7 hours ago, LJS said:

What did i invent was it the "one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world"? bit

no, what that would mean around this matter. Devolved parliaments don't have foriegn policy powers.

But you think Scotland should do. 

But then again you think Scotland shouldn't have a devolved parliament anyway.

So your complaint about whether it's "one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the world" matters not a fuck.

That's not your complaint. That it's a devolved parliament is your complaint.

FFS.

Edited March 30, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

As an aside I note that you  seem to believe that only the 30% committed nationalist don't think. But all the committed unionists do..

Nope, that's just your stupidity at work in defence of the indefensible.

Again.

 

[eFestivals]

6 hours ago, LJS said:

Do you think Andrew was fulfilling the BBC's charter requirement for impartiality?

awwww, poor man objects to politicians being held to account for their bullshit.

Which is odd, because the same poor man spends an awful lot of time posting stuff that he thinks challenges politicians.

Just not his own glorious leader, who he gives a free pass and expects everyone else to do that too.

Pathetic, real pathetic. It exposes everything about you.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

awwww, poor man objects to politicians being held to account for their bullshit.

Which is odd, because the same poor man spends an awful lot of time posting stuff that he thinks challenges politicians.

Just not his own glorious leader, who he gives a free pass and expects everyone else to do that too.

Pathetic, real pathetic. It exposes everything about you.

Nicely dodged.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

Nicely dodged.

Dodged?

What don't you understand about your own bias?

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

The guy who claims a specific vote over something is worth less than a non-specific vote is calling another guy prejudiced. That's the same guy who just last week lost his rag when he was nailed for his own.

What was I nailed for exactly Neil?

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

And you'll be gloating while I'll be laughing - at specifically you - knowing that my maths is good and your bluster can't change that, and you've fucked your life and your children's life. The sad thing is that you really know you're doing that, but when hatred and false claims of greater morality drives you,

Hatred of what, Neil?

 

 

[eFestivals]

48 minutes ago, LJS said:

What was I nailed for exactly Neil?

what did you say about me, LJS?

FFS, moron.

49 minutes ago, LJS said:

Hatred of what, Neil?

Hatred of what you want to falsely tell others the UK has become.

What don't you understand about what you do?

You claimed insular for the UK, when you want to withdraw to the insular yourself. You claim divisive for the UK when you want to divide. Etc, etc, etc.

[pink_triangle]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

my main pleasure will be that Scotland has chosen hope over fear 

Many brexit supporters may say the same thing about us leaving the EU. I do struggle slightly with people like yourself who think the unknown of independence makes total sense, yet the unknown of Brexit is complete madness. 

[eFestivals]

34 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Many brexit supporters may say the same thing about us leaving the EU. I do struggle slightly with people like yourself who think the unknown of independence makes total sense, yet the unknown of Brexit is complete madness. 

this ^

Tho rather amusingly, the number of snippers who are now going full-flow with the  same language as Farage is astounding for a campaign where people like LJS and comfy are saying there's nothing the same.

They're *exactly* the same - the desire for greater sovereignty over all sense, with the purpose of greater division for humanity.

[eFestivals]

The most wonderful bit of stupidity from the SNP leadership in the form of Angus Robertson....

If the Prime Minister does not, if she remains intransigent and if she denies Scotland a choice on our future she will make Scottish independence inevitable.

With deep thinking brains like these, iScotland's future glory is assured.

[LJS]

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Many brexit supporters may say the same thing about us leaving the EU. I do struggle slightly with people like yourself who think the unknown of independence makes total sense, yet the unknown of Brexit is complete madness. 

Some of us ain't terribly impressed with the general drift to the right in UK politics and can only see that getting worse post brexit with withdrawal from the ECHR & an increase in anti immigration rhetoric. 

Of course there are unknowns around independence but at least the odds look a bit better on a more social democratic outward looking country.

(Cue response from Neil about money)

[pink_triangle]

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

Some of us ain't terribly impressed with the general drift to the right in UK politics and can only see that getting worse post brexit with withdrawal from the ECHR & an increase in anti immigration rhetoric. 

Of course there are unknowns around independence but at least the odds look a bit better on a more social democratic outward looking country.

(Cue response from Neil about money)

I don't support either brexit or Scottish independence as I don't feel the economic evidence supports the unknown. 

My belief is that Britain can prosper inside or outside the EU. Inside would be my preference, but I don't think Brexit will be the doomsday scenario that someone like Zahidif predicts.

While I think Britain will be worse off following brexit and Scotland worse off following independence, I'm more confident of the latter than the former.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

anti immigration

seen the Herald's front page recently?

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, LJS said:

Of course there are unknowns around independence but at least the odds look a bit better on a more social democratic outward looking country.

How can the odds be better when 

1. the loss of the Barnett money will have a humongous impact

2. the 'export' trade damage from indy is greater than the 'export' trade damage of brexit.

?

What odds will be better? It certainly won't be the economic odds.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

While I think Britain will be worse off following brexit and Scotland worse off following independence, I'm more confident of the latter than the former.

Yup.

Unless you're someone saying all internationally approved and standardised govt national statistics are a crock of shit, this cannot be disputed.

The UK leaving the EU has an up-front benefit of £9bn a year (or approx 1% extra for govt expenditure). Scotland leaving the UK has an up-front loss of £9bn a year (or approx 25% less for govt expenditure)

The UK leaving the EU has the potential to impact negatively onto 42% of UK exports. Scotland leaving the UK has the potential to impact negatively onto 65% of Scottish exports. 

If brexit is economic madness, then scexit is economic madness on steriods.

Edited March 30, 2017 by eFestivals

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

seen the Herald's front page recently?

No