The Dirty Independence Question

[lost]

25 minutes ago, LJS said:

This is my favourite myth that keeps getting trotted out  The only place there is significant support for Independence for Shetland is in the columns of the Mail, The Express & The Telegraph. 

It is true that there is a movement which argues for Independence. here is their inaugural meeting

A quick glance at their facebook page will show clearly hopw littel interest they generate..

But your quite happy to take a single 10 month old article about Jersey as gospel? There is a much bigger indy movement proportionally in Shetland and that's before Sturgeons austerity has started to reduce the massive deficit, Why would anyone hang around to face larger cuts than Greece suffered when there is a simple way to avoid it? as I said once Pandoras box has been opened.. All it will take is for a talented politician to suggest the population can have all this free stuff if they leave with the oil.

Edited April 2, 2017 by lost

[LJS]

36 minutes ago, lost said:

But your quite happy to take a single 10 month old article about Jersey as gospel?

Not really, I was just making mischief. I haven't the faintest idea if Jersey is at likely to pursue independence.

36 minutes ago, lost said:

There is a much bigger indy movement proportionally in Shetland and that's before Sturgeons austerity has started to reduce the massive deficit,

Shetland  it has virtually no unemployment, has an oil fund that has given them some of the best infrastructure and public services in the UK.

Oh & the SNP came 2nd in the last Holyrood & Westminster elections. (The Westminster constituency is Orkney & Shetland)

36 minutes ago, lost said:

Why would anyone hang around to face larger cuts than Greece suffered when there is a simple way to avoid it? 

Because they are a scare-mongering invention of the no campaign?

36 minutes ago, lost said:

as I said once Pandoras box has been opened.. All it will take is for a talented politician to suggest the population can have all this free stuff if they leave with the oil.

It has been clear for some time that you don't understand Scotland. It is now equally clear that you don't understand Shetland.

[LJS]

Anyway, Shetlands main significance is that loads of oil fields are in "Shetland waters"

So, you guys need to make your mind up. I understood that with the collapse of the oil price, oil was worth nothing to iScotland. In which case, improbable though it might be, Shetland leaving would be of little significance.

Or am I missing something?

[lost]

31 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

Because they are a scare-mongering invention of the no campaign?

It has been clear for some time that you don't understand Scotland. It is now equally clear that you don't understand Shetland.

 

Nope straight from scot.gov, I understand people (because we are all the same) and I know what they do during times of economic stress. Its massively clear whats going to happen when the SNP start to tackle the 15bn deficit.

Quote

Anyway, Shetlands main significance is that loads of oil fields are in "Shetland waters"

So, you guys need to make your mind up. I understood that with the collapse of the oil price, oil was worth nothing to iScotland. In which case, improbable though it might be, Shetland leaving would be of little significance.

Or am I missing something?

You are, the difference in population between Shetland and Scotland. The revenue per head generated would be far higher for the former.

Edited April 2, 2017 by lost

[LJS]

19 minutes ago, lost said:

Nope straight from scot.gov, I understand people (because we are all the same) and I know what they do during times of economic stress. Its massively clear whats going to happen when the SNP start to tackle the 15bn deficit.

There is no deficit figure for an independent Scotland. there is a notional estimate for Scotland within the UK. which is where the £15bn comes from. Even if we accept this as a figure an Independent Scotland - if you look at the onshore deficit (so we're excluding oil revenues, which seems, these days, to be a reasonable thing to do) it has consistently fallen by at least £1bn per year over the past 6 years or so. Now desirable as it may be, totally eliminating the deficit is not necessary - the UK has run a deficit in all but about 3 of the past 50 years - so all iScotland needs to do is to continue the trend of the past few years & the deficit will become sustainable. 

19 minutes ago, lost said:

You are, the difference in population between Shetland and Scotland. The revenue per head generated would be far higher for the former.

It would be but this is not a debate about Shetland, its a debate about Scotland and it appears to me you have just confirmed that the loss of Shetland wouldn't be a significant problem for iScotland. 

 

 

[lost]

21 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

It would be but this is not a debate about Shetland, its a debate about Scotland and it appears to me you have just confirmed that the loss of Shetland wouldn't be a significant problem for iScotland. 

 

 

Yes you are right it probably wouldn't be, Scotland would have to cut either way. Its more advantageous for Shetland to by indy from Scotland than Scotland to be indy from Britain.

Edited April 2, 2017 by lost

[LJS]

1 hour ago, lost said:

Yes you are right it probably wouldn't be, Scotland would have to cut either way. Its more advantageous for Shetland to by indy from Scotland than Scotland to be indy from Britain.

If all you care about is money, you are undoubtedly correct.

The best things in life are free but you can keep them for the birds & bees, give me money, that's what I want.

 

[lost]

20 minutes ago, LJS said:

If all you care about is money, you are undoubtedly correct.

The best things in life are free but you can keep them for the birds & bees, give me money, that's what I want.

 

yep spot on money = public services, pensions, benefits etc..  

but now as we are seeing with this wave of nationalism with the brexit and the like people now seem happy to potentially vote themselves poorer for freeedom!!! Blitz spirit and all that.

Edited April 2, 2017 by lost

[LJS]

9 minutes ago, lost said:

yep spot on money = public services, pensions, benefits etc..  

but now as we are seeing with this wave of nationalism with the brexit and the like people now seem happy to potentially vote themselves poorer for freeedom!!! Blitz spirit and all that.

 Your equation is incomplete. It should read

Money + political will = public services, pensions, benefits etc.

The political will in the UK of late & for the foreseeable future is happy to cut public services and slash benefot whilst protecting pensions because old fol vote Tory.

Here's the latest instalment..

The government’s £1bn tax and benefit giveaway will leave poorer households worse off

http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/blog/the-governments-1bn-tax-and-benefit-giveaway-will-leave-poorer-households-worse-off/

If you listen to Neil , you will think that I believe that through the exceptional magic of Scottishness. a new paradise awaits.But of course, like so much that Neil says, this is bollocks.

I believe we have a better chance of electing governments who give a bit more of a shit about trying to create a fairer society. It may well  be a bit rocky at the start - not £15bn rocky - but rocky nonetheless. 

I suppose the difference this time round is that it is more difficult to present remaining in the union as much less rocky.

 

[eFestivals]

16 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

According to Neil, you`re right about what Spain say.

According to Spain this is not the case.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/spain-drops-plan-to-impose-veto-if-scotland-tries-to-join-eu

I see you've gone for the big lie again, because lies are all you have. :lol:

If you took a moment to read the thread instead of being the liar all the time, you can see me tell Kaos that he's wrong.

You really are a sad fucker.

Meanwhile, back with the EU membership application process, no one has become a member in less than 10 years for all new members of the two decades.

And as Scotland is further away from meeting membership rules than those applicants were at the time of their applications, Scotland isn't going to become a member any sooner than 10 years.

Oh, and Scotland won't become a member without making a formal official commitment to join the euro .... go on, tell me again how Scotland are committed to EU membership and are perfect EU partners, along with how Scotland would be lying to the EU about that.

[eFestivals]

16 hours ago, LJS said:

Just what we need ... a good war, worked wonders for Thatcher.

Add to that, Jersey going for independence...

Jersey could vote for independence from UK following Brexit

http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2016-06-27/jersey-could-vote-for-independence-from-uk-following-brexit/

This whole brexit lark is going swimmingly!

Fascinating that we are prepared to go to war to protect the right of the people of Gibraltar to decide their future.

But won't allow the people of  Scotland a vote. 

PMSL - Jersey isn't even in the EU.

I guess they've got even smarter behind their bid for independence than Scotland has.

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, LJS said:

Its so easy, so lazy and so fundamentally wrong to tar all nationalisms with the same brush. If you can't see the difference between the outward looking inclusive nationalism of the Scottish indy movement and the inward looking isolationist view of the likes of UKip, then you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of what's going on up here.

says the man who just a few days ago put forwards a doc that suggested a North Korean insular approach to the economy was Scotland's future.

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, LJS said:

Shetland  it has virtually no unemployment, has an oil fund that has given them some of the best infrastructure and public services in the UK.

Shetland has an oil fund that's been guaranteed and under-written by the UK govt.

As you like to keep on telling us, everything is up for change after indy.

 

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

Anyway, Shetlands main significance is that loads of oil fields are in "Shetland waters"

So, you guys need to make your mind up. I understood that with the collapse of the oil price, oil was worth nothing to iScotland. In which case, improbable though it might be, Shetland leaving would be of little significance.

Or am I missing something?

What was last year's all-Scotland's revenue? £60M, wasn't it?

That won't go very far in Scotland. That will go a long way in Shetland.

Think about it.

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

says the man who just a few days ago put forwards a doc that suggested a North Korean insular approach to the economy was Scotland's future.

I missed the north Korean bit , Neil.

Mibbe cos it wisnae' there.

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

There is no deficit figure for an independent Scotland. there is a notional estimate for Scotland within the UK. which is where the £15bn comes from. Even if we accept this as a figure an Independent Scotland - if you look at the onshore deficit (so we're excluding oil revenues, which seems, these days, to be a reasonable thing to do) it has consistently fallen by at least £1bn per year over the past 6 years or so. Now desirable as it may be, totally eliminating the deficit is not necessary - the UK has run a deficit in all but about 3 of the past 50 years - so all iScotland needs to do is to continue the trend of the past few years & the deficit will become sustainable. 

Or to word it in a different way, no less correct...

All Scotland has to do is to cut far more - about 10% more of govt spending (in real terms) - than the tories will cut and the deficit will become sustainable.

Because that's the fact of it.

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Shetland has an oil fund that's been guaranteed and under-written by the UK govt.

Really? In what way?

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

As you like to keep on telling us, everything is up for change after indy.

 

Of course it is Neil. But right now there is no appetite for independence in Shetland.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

I missed the north Korean bit , Neil.

Mibbe cos it wisnae' there.

what did you miss about how it said things would change if the money current spent outside Scotland was spent in Scotland...?

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

what did you miss about how it said things would change if the money current spent outside Scotland was spent in Scotland...?

That was part of the argument. There is nothing north Korean about that. Desperate start to the day, Neil.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

Really? In what way?

Do you think all local govts have a right in law to tax commercial enterprises on their profits?

FFS.

The Shetland oil fund is a matter of UK law, written in Westminster. A law that Westminster allowed and Westminster has honoured.

A law that iScotland might not honour.

 

1 minute ago, LJS said:

Of course it is Neil. But right now there is no appetite for independence in Shetland.

But it's not really been discussed about how Sturgeon might nick their money. 

As PT said, it only takes a charismatic politician to work something up around it.

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

That was part of the argument. There is nothing north Korean about that. Desperate start to the day, Neil.

There's nothing that's part of the EU dream about it, and it's a *VERY* North Korean approach to economics.

FFS, either your lies are getting bigger, or your stupidity is growing.

[LJS]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Do you think all local govts have a right in law to tax commercial enterprises on their profits?

FFS.

The Shetland oil fund is a matter of UK law, written in Westminster. A law that Westminster allowed and Westminster has honoured.

A law that iScotland might not honour.

 

But it's not really been discussed about how Sturgeon might nick their money. 

As PT said, it only takes a charismatic politician to work something up around it.

I suggest you go and read up on Shetland's oil fund before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

I understand it's a niche subject so I wouldn't expect you to know.

But that doesn't mean it's OK to make stuff up.

I haven't checked lately but the fund used to be worth about £300million. A lot of money for Shetland. Not enough to make a difference for Scotland. It is also controlled by a number of charitable trusts not the Shetland islands council making it a little more difficult for even a charismatic politician to steal it.

[LJS]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

There's nothing that's part of the EU dream about it, and it's a *VERY* North Korean approach to economics.

FFS, either your lies are getting bigger, or your stupidity is growing.

How is life in your bizarre alternative universe,Neil?

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, LJS said:

How is life in your bizarre alternative universe,Neil?

care to show me any country apart form North Korea that prioritises it's spend internally in the way that article suggested?

In fact, it would be another rejection by Scotland of being the good Europeans they like to pretend to be but which was laid out in black and white in the White Paper that Scotland are at least as eurosceptic as the whole UK.

But hey, let's write some bullshit and then have our fans lie about it, that'll win is indy on a sound basis.

Still, you can only reject reality until a winning vote. Then it gets real and you have to live with what your lies have caused. 

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, LJS said:

I suggest you go and read up on Shetland's oil fund before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

some of us know, and some of us don't....

http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2009/04/03/politics-what-is-the-shetland-charitable-trust

"It was the first chief executive of Shetland Islands Council, Ian R Clark, then county clerk of Zetland County Council, who put into motion a plan to acquire special powers from parliament to protect Shetland’s interests and exploit the financial opportunities that were about to arise."

"The order became known as the Zetland County Council Bill, and after two long years, during which it became a private bill because it raised issues of such importance, and then was very controversially voted against by Labour MP Tam Dalyell, the bill was finally passed as a lawful act in April 1974."

Are you going to tell me that an MP voted in a local council motion?

Oh, and just in case you need more proof against your lies, here's the Hansard...

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1974/mar/19/zetland-county-council-bill

Oh dear.

hey LJS, I suggest you go and read up on Shetland's oil fund before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

FFS.

Edited April 3, 2017 by eFestivals