The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I think you have misunderstood. Would be daft to have a ref now or in the middle of the brexit stuff as you suggest. I think towards the end makes more sense.

"towards the end" is in the middle of it.

There's various issues about the negotiations themselves if an indyref is in the middle of it, plusw you wouldn't and couldn't know what you were voting for/against.

But you know that and you don't care. You don't care if your countrymen know what they're voting for, you only care that they vote the same way as you. Treating your countrymen like scum, nice!

I saw someone call the indyref attempt Sturgeon's own version of Dublin 1916, of sticking the knife in at the moment you think your adversary is the weakest.

Which is about right.

And only shows how little Sturgeon believes there's any intellectual case for indy.

 

5 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I think NS could compromise as long as the date still covers the current term as I'm pretty keen on this manifesto / mandate stuff.

Personally I'd like to see it go ahead asap, but not within a period where it's about trying to ensure the UK gets a bad deal rather than really wanting a ref. That just proves it about what you don't want to admit it's about, but hey, we'll just pretend that sticking the knife in is about nice fluffy caring people because that's another truth you can't face.

 

5 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I disagree that there is no court option.

Care to tell me what law you've fantasised into existence to see it go to court?

It's beyond all sensible dispute that May has the right to say no.

It's so very much beyond dispute that your own Parliament referenced the legal need to seek permission when authorising Sturgeon to seek permission.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I was attempting to discuss the timing of the next ref.

You decided to go with personal insults.

No, you started with the insults, by thinking me so fucking stupid as to believe you and Sturgeon with the 'now' thing.

As i said, no fucker is that fucking stupid, but if you want to keep on inferring that you and the FM are that fuckiung stupid, go ahead.

Being that fucking stupid isn't required to discuss the timing of the next ref, because even you say the next ref isn't 'now'.

Which only exposes your duplicitousness, and that c**ty is what drives you and not being brain-dead.

Now, if you really want that adult grown up conversation, you first have to act like a grown up, and not make up the most fucking stupid things to avoid any discussion anyway.

[Comfy Bean]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

"towards the end" is in the middle of it.

There's various issues about the negotiations themselves if an indyref is in the middle of it, plusw you wouldn't and couldn't know what you were voting for/against.

But you know that and you don't care. You don't care if your countrymen know what they're voting for, you only care that they vote the same way as you. Treating your countrymen like scum, nice!

I saw someone call the indyref attempt Sturgeon's own version of Dublin 1916, of sticking the knife in at the moment you think your adversary is the weakest.

Which is about right.

And only shows how little Sturgeon believes there's any intellectual case for indy.

 

Personally I'd like to see it go ahead asap, but not within a period where it's about trying to ensure the UK gets a bad deal rather than really wanting a ref. That just proves it about what you don't want to admit it's about, but hey, we'll just pretend that sticking the knife in is about nice fluffy caring people because that's another truth you can't face.

 

Care to tell me what law you've fantasised into existence to see it go to court?

It's beyond all sensible dispute that May has the right to say no.

It's so very much beyond dispute that your own Parliament referenced the legal need to seek permission when authorising Sturgeon to seek permission.

I think the window between 18 months to 2 years will prove to be near the end. I don't think having it then would mean treating anyone like scum. What a strange thing to say !

May will have a deal by then and Sturgeon thinks she can offer folk living in Scotland an alternative.

Seems perfectly sensible. The Scottish Parliament has spoken on this. Let's get it organised and let the people decide.

[Comfy Bean]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No, you started with the insults, by thinking me so fucking stupid as to believe you and Sturgeon with the 'now' thing.

As i said, no fucker is that fucking stupid, but if you want to keep on inferring that you and the FM are that fuckiung stupid, go ahead.

Being that fucking stupid isn't required to discuss the timing of the next ref, because even you say the next ref isn't 'now'.

Which only exposes your duplicitousness, and that c**ty is what drives you and not being brain-dead.

Now, if you really want that adult grown up conversation, you first have to act like a grown up, and not make up the most fucking stupid things to avoid any discussion anyway.

The last paragraph here about a grown up conversation is a tad ironic coming after the childish ramblings within the first 4.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I think the window between 18 months to 2 years will prove to be near the end. I don't think having it then would mean treating anyone like scum. What a strange thing to say !

The terms may or may be clear as words sayable at that time. They certainly won't be clear in real-world impact.

It's treating your countrymen like scum to want them to vote  when it's impossible for them to know what they'd really be voting about, and when there's no necessity within that timeframe. It makes fuck all difference in the general scheme of things if the vote is in March 2019 or March 2020 or March 2021 - and even you've just posted to say 'within this parliament' would be acceptable to you, so there's no need to push to sturgeon's timescale. That's only about her trying to undermine the UK, to do bad for everyone.

And it's quite easy to say that within this parliament would be taking the piss, because no democracy should be holding refs on the same subject as often as they're holding elections. That only demonstrates the election is returning a warped result.

 

10 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Seems perfectly sensible. The Scottish Parliament has spoken on this. Let's get it organised and let the people decide.

Might seem sensible to you. Might even seem sensible to me.

But you're forgetting one thing. Sovereignty is what the Scottish people decided to NOT to exercise via the Scottish Parliament, so how the Scottish Parliament speaks on this is NOT the final word - BY THE DECISION OF THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND.

May's mandate to refuse is at least as good as good as the mandate Sturgeon has to request another, AND May has the legals on her side - and the polls seem to back up that May has called it right too.

Cos although a recent poll had a majority of Scots saying they felt Holyrood should be able to make this decision, it's yet to be proven that Holyrood has made a decision the majority in Scotland agree with. 

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

The last paragraph here about a grown up conversation is a tad ironic coming after the childish ramblings within the first 4.

which only happened because you started the childishness by prtending May really meant soon.

As I said, that's one for the mentally subnormal only, and is only being used by people like you as a distraction to avoid awkward facts.

If you really want a discussion you'll have to stop avoiding awkward facts.

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

from every other new member who's joined the EU or applied for membership within the last 20 years. No one has become a member in lesser time than 10 years.

Remember, Scotland does *NOT* meet the terms of membership, and is further away from meeting the terms of membership that those other applicants were at the time of their applications. They were, at least, already-up-and-running sovereign states with all of the institutions of a sovereign state, and (the important thing as far as the EU is concerned) a history of satisfactory operation of those institutions.

On the basis of those other applicants and the lack of history around the operation of a sovereign Scotland, it's quite reasonable to assume 14+ years before an iScotland might become a member, tho I'm happy to settle for saying 10+ years to avoid the long winded explanation for why longer.

Thanks again for your opinion.

Because you are well read & awfully knowledgeable, you will be well aware that there have been other opinions expressed, not all of which come from SNP twazzocks. Indeed some of them come from people with a little more direct experience of how the EU actually works 

But, hey their opinion differs from Neil's so I guess they must be twazzocks too.

[LJS]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

ahhhh, the familiar Corbynista strategy of "we'll win because the other side will be even shitter than we are".

You might be right and that's how* you get your victory - after all, the case for indy can't be made to stand up on its own merits - but that  will merely be the start of far greater problems.
(* unlike with Corbyn I do recognise you're in a place where it's possible to win)

To win such an important thing on the basis of being really really shit is never going to work out well after that victory.

good job we're not then innit?

 

[LJS]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

What? PMSL

You'd have to be mentally subnormal to think May's use of 'now' was May thinking that Sturgeon wanted indyref2 tomorrow.

What's laughable is how Sturgeon is clinging onto that 'now' bit as tho she believes that's what May was saying.

It shows how very deep the desperation is, with Sturgeon to have to use it in the first place and you having to push it like it's true.

Yeah its really smart politics to use a word like now which means "in the present" to mean "sometime int he future" 

Anyway she us given us the slogan for the next Indy ref...

 

NOW IS THE TIME

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

No, you started with the insults, by thinking me so fucking stupid as to believe you and Sturgeon with the 'now' thing.

As i said, no fucker is that fucking stupid, but if you want to keep on inferring that you and the FM are that fuckiung stupid, go ahead.

Being that fucking stupid isn't required to discuss the timing of the next ref, because even you say the next ref isn't 'now'.

Which only exposes your duplicitousness, and that c**ty is what drives you and not being brain-dead.

Now, if you really want that adult grown up conversation, you first have to act like a grown up, and not make up the most fucking stupid things to avoid any discussion anyway.

 in the past day or so we have had all of this "grown -up conversation"

Quote

I see you've gone for the big lie again, because lies are all you have.

 

Quote

You really are a sad fucker. 

 

Quote

either your lies are getting bigger, or your stupidity is growing.

 

Quote

 

That's what you favour, fucking over Scotland's poor, Scotland's unemployed, Scotland's unhealthy, and Scotland's pensioners. 

And yourself too, of course. You're welcome to castrate yourself with my blessing. 

 

 

Quote

You start the day with a lie, and then go brain dead.

 

Quote

As I said, you'd have to be mentally subnormal to think otherwise.

 

Quote

 

Treating your countrymen like scum, nice!

 we'll just pretend that sticking the knife in is about nice fluffy caring people because that's another truth you can't face.

 

and now 
 

Quote

 

 no fucker is that fucking stupid, but if you want to keep on inferring that you and the FM are that fuckiung stupid, go ahead.

Being that fucking stupid isn't required to discuss the timing of the next ref, because even you say the next ref isn't 'now'.

Which only exposes your duplicitousness, and that c**ty is what drives you and not being brain-dead

 

 

 I'm really not sure I can be arsed with all this shite....

[Comfy Bean]

56 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

 I'm really not sure I can be arsed with all this shite....

At one point some of the childish insults, not including my castration or the scum or knifing bits, were blamed on me for describing Mays now is not the time line as clumsy !

I still think it was a poor choice of words to use over and over when being asked to start the process to allow us to have another vote in a couple of years. A process mandated by our Parliament !

Sturgeon must have been delighted :-)

Anyway, we are fortunate I suppose that when we have a few hundred idiots covering both sides of this argument who spend their time insulting each other online over a discussion about whether Scotland could / should be independent, we only have 1 person who continually does it on here :-)

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

Just seen Sturgeon on the news. In the US this week talking to leaders in California about climate change and American investment in wind farms in Scotland then on to New York.

Tories raging because May can do this sort of thing when over holding hands with the D.

Call me cynical but I know where my money's going if we're betting on which of the 2 is best at representing Scotlands interests when it comes to overseas investment. 

This type of trip also doesn't sit well with those who see her as no more than a parish councillor I suppose.

[LJS]

4 hours ago, LJS said:

Yeah its really smart politics to use a word like now which means "in the present" to mean "sometime int he future" 

Anyway she us given us the slogan for the next Indy ref...

 

NOW IS THE TIME

the only question is what do we use for the campaign song

Jimmy James & the Vagabonds?

  Charlie Parker?

Or Moloko?

 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Thanks again for your opinion.

Because you are well read & awfully knowledgeable, you will be well aware that there have been other opinions expressed, not all of which come from SNP twazzocks. Indeed some of them come from people with a little more direct experience of how the EU actually works 

But, hey their opinion differs from Neil's so I guess they must be twazzocks too.

A Spanish opinion from the Spanish telling Mike Twazzock that he's a liar and to stop being a liar is not an opinion, it's a matter of fact.

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

good job we're not then innit?

 

comfy put forwards his opinion that indy is certain because May & co will be more shit than the indy campaign.

He definitely thinks indy-ists are shit. He said it.

Never mind, eh?

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Yeah its really smart politics to use a word like now which means "in the present" to mean "sometime int he future" 

Anyway she us given us the slogan for the next Indy ref...

 

NOW IS THE TIME

Sturgeon said she would be asking for the ref now. May said now is not the time.

What difficulty are you having understanding simple words?

As I said, it takes the mentally subnormal to think May was meaning the ref would be now.

Are you wearing your subnormal badge with pride? It looks like it.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

 I'm really not sure I can be arsed with all this shite....

says the man who demonstrates he's mentally subnormal by thinking May thought Sturgeon wanted the ref now.

Of all the pathetic diversionary tactics, this takes the biscuit.

Is there no limit to how much you'll degrade yourself in the eyes of others in pursuit of indy? Clearly not.

And all to avoid an actual discussion about the thing you say you want, is there anyone more scared than you?

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

This type of trip also doesn't sit well with those who see her as no more than a parish councillor I suppose.

She's just a parish councillor as all of her previous overseas trips have proven - which have harvested the sum total of absolutely nothing at all.

Oh, she did meet the boss in New York last time, tho she was shy about tweeting about that, I wonder why? She's probably got another meeting arranged with him this time too.

She's loving the holidays you're paying for. It's so very important for her to waste her time on these things rather than sorting out the degrading in services her govt has caused ... a degradation you'll say is caused by tory cuts, while saying that further cuts post-indy to sort the deficit won't cause any degradation.

[eFestivals]

and videos to avoid discussion, Who'd have thunk it? Indy-ists scared of their own idea.

[LJS]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

says the man who demonstrates he's mentally subnormal

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

by thinking May thought Sturgeon wanted the ref now.

Of all the pathetic diversionary tactics, this takes the biscuit.

Is there no limit to how much you'll degrade yourself in the eyes of others in pursuit of indy? Clearly not.

And all to avoid an actual discussion about the thing you say you want, is there anyone more scared than you?

Enjoy your day.

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, LJS said:

Enjoy your day.

I will. I won't be spending my time trying to evade it because it scares me. 

[eFestivals]

well, it looks like comfy might be right, and the SNP want to piss more Scottish people's money up the wall to make lawyers rich....

Quote

But she stated: "That is not a sustainable position frankly for the

 UK Government to take, it is a bit of a holding position just now. There will be another referendum on Scottish independence, of that I am fairly certain."

While the legislation that created the Scottish Parliament reserved powers over constitutional issues to the UK, Ms Sturgeon argued that "is quite a vague term" and said that the issue had never been tested in court.

From: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15204038.Nicola_Sturgeon__fairly_certain__of_second_Scottish_independence_referendum/

It's another case of mentally subnormal, if she really thinks Westminster have left that one open.

So it's just like everything else, another case of grievence mining, which she thinks Scots are stupid-suckers for .

Because, as ever, the case for indy can't be made on its own merits. It has to be about how 'others' are doing down Scotland (those nasty nasty 'others', eh? ) and this gets proven by her treating Scots as brainless.

Edited April 5, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I see that LJS's hopes of Scotland using economic growth to sort the Scottish deficit is in tatters, as scotland is on the brink of recession.

The SNP want to blame brexit for that, yet the whole UK is still steaming ahead while Scotland isn't.

It's fair enough to say that there's little of economic policy that the SNP control for them to take the blame via their economic policies, but there is a policy they control that's distinctly different to anything happening elsewhere in the UK, that seems the likely culprit.

Can you guess what it is?

[russycarps]

Blimey I know we like to laugh at Scotland's woes in this thread, but it looks like their economy is heading for recession for real. That's not good for anyone (least of all those on lowest incomes) and I hope things improve up there.

Perhaps it's time for the leaders up there to focus on the economy for a while.

[russycarps]

Wow wtf we posted at exactly the same time.