The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I know, I really should have driven your point home better than I did.

After all, when you're trying to willy-wave about half-price of Salmond's claimed price as some sort of moral victory, you're showing Farage up as intelligent compared to your version of nationalist nutters.

Except I wasn't. I was only exposing Russy as a fraud.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

Except I wasn't. I was only exposing Russy as a fraud.

Russy's a fraud because oil is half the price Salmond claimed it would be?  

The fraud is Salmond; the fool is you; the disaster-avoided is Scotland's.
 

[russycarps]

18 hours ago, LJS said:

Funny how we never hear from Russy, our resident oil expert these days.

 

"In the first half of 2018 the price of Brent Crude oil averaged more than $70 a barrel."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-45495576

it's a tricky business predicting the future.

 

who cares about oil prices anymore? the UK is kaput.

 

 

 

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, russycarps said:

who cares about oil prices anymore? the UK is kaput.

 

 

 

and sadly we're still in it...

 

 

for now...

 

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

and sadly we're still in it...

 

 

for now...

 

throwing away your biggest market is equally stupid for the kippers of the UK or an indy-wanting Nat.

Scotland doesn't save itself from the UK's trouble's by choosing to throw itself off a bigger cliff.

[russycarps]

That's true but it doesn't matter. We no longer live in a rational world. Facts and reason are now meaningless.

Soon it will be just england and our parasite wales left clinging to each other.

It's fascinating to think we are living through an event which will be studied by future historians for centuries to come.

 

[eFestivals]

55 minutes ago, russycarps said:

Facts and reason are now meaningless.

yup, but that's not solely an English &/or USA problem.

The post-truth age was pointed out a while back. It doesn't matter what the facts are, what we* feel is more important.

(* not me).

[kaosmark2]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yup, but that's not solely an English &/or USA problem.

The post-truth age was pointed out a while back. It doesn't matter what the facts are, what we* feel is more important.

(* not me).

The people are sick of experts. 

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

The people are sick of experts. 

yup, and once a few peoples have thrown themselves off a few cliffs, the people will come to value experts again.

Human existence: two steps forward, one step back. Struggle.

[kaosmark2]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

yup, and once a few peoples have thrown themselves off a few cliffs, the people will come to value experts again.

Human existence: two steps forward, one step back. Struggle.

The problem at the moment is the enthusiasm to throw themselves backwards. It's making me wonder how far we'll regress before advancing again. 

[LJS]

This amused me. 

Neil regularly accuses Scotland of "robbing" Wales because we insist on a better financial settlement than them.

I think this graphic, from Neil's favourite "expert" on the economics of Indy, knocks that argument firmly on its head.

 

 

[eFestivals]

23 minutes ago, LJS said:

knocks that argument firmly on its head

want to tell me how?

Or don't you know? 

Cos that graphic doesn't say it.

All of the while Wales has a lower standard of living than Scotland - which it does, as often boasted by your glorious leader - what I said remains true.

Edited October 2, 2018 by eFestivals

[LJS]

On 7/8/2016 at 8:54 AM, eFestivals said:

Yes, English money.

Where do you think the extrra £10Bn a year that Scotland gets - that Sturgeon recently spent months demanding continued - come from?

It doesn't come from Scotland. Sturgeon makes a statement each and every year that it doesn't, just as Salmond made the same statement each and every year.

Does it come from Northern Ireland? Nope, that gets bigger UK subsidies than Scotland gets.

Does it comes from Wales? Nope, Wales gets subsidies, but nothing as big as Scotland despite being far poorer - poverty that Scotland has helped push onto them via Scotland's over-inflated and unfair demands.

 

 

i was merely pointing out the lies you have been telling like the one highlighted above.  

 

 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

i was merely pointing out the lies you have been telling like the one highlighted above.  

It's about the amount spent per-person, and not the amount of subsidy you plonker.

One quickly-written error, when shitloads of times I've explained the whole thing in full. Either you're too stupid to have understood what I've said to you many time for over 5 years, or you're a troll, take your pick.  

It's not about the amount of subsidy, it's about the standard of living - as boasted about by your glorious leader.

I've told you many times that:-

The average standard of living in Wales is lower than other parts of the UK.

The spend per-person in Wales is lower than other parts of the UK (except England).

Sturgeon boasts that Scotland has the highest (and of course that's at the expense of somewhere else).

Even before the Barnet formula existed, there was a desire by Westminster to remove some subsidy from Scotland to give to Wales, so that Scotland wasn't over-subsidised and Wales wasn't under-subsidised. You can find this laid out in multiple govt documents of the time.

Scotland kicked off, and the barnet formula was born as a result - which maintained Scotland being over-subsidised and Wales being under-subsidised.

And then a year or two ago, barnet was up for renegotiation, where *YOU* (and Sturgeon) demanded that the Welsh were kept as poor as possible while Scotland maintained it's over-subsidised advantage.

And you reckon Scotland is being shafted, because that's how self-tory-greedy most Scottish Nats are.  

If Scotland is the left-leaning wonderland you like to pretend, why does it insist on being the richest and is happy for Wales to suck up the poverty that Scotland causes it?

All detailed here:-

https://fullfact.org/economy/how-barnett-formula-flawed-favour-scotland-and-northern-ireland/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwrszdBRDWARIsAEEYhrd45OpF0eaaGYqIS7K74kdimDFu5QcgCNRiIueFiGvk4htuM1jm-18aAow1EALw_wcB

and here:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formula

etc, etc, etc.

Too stupid, or troll? Which is it LJS?

Edited October 3, 2018 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Who's old enough to remember Clive Ponting? Apart from me & Neil. 

Anyway, the man who expose the lies of Thatcher has moved to Scotland & supports Indy. 

His view of the rottenness of the British state explains to a large extent why I'd like out, please...

 

 

 

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

Who's old enough to remember Clive Ponting? Apart from me & Neil. 

Anyway, the man who expose the lies of Thatcher has moved to Scotland & supports Indy. 

His view of the rottenness of the British state explains to a large extent why I'd like out, please...

 

 

 

I remember Ricky if they are related!

[lost]

Why not? The best solution for those who had issues with corruption at government level was to vote yes in 2014 and hand the country over to a rapey drunk on Putins payroll!

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, lost said:

rapey drunk on Putins payroll!

that's a bit harsh. The 'rapey' bit hasn't been proven, yet.  

[eFestivals]

Going backwards....

Poll: 60% of Scots would back ‘remain’ in new Scottish independence vote

Nicola Sturgeon admits Indyref2 may be after 2021

[LJS]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Going backwards....

Poll: 60% of Scots would back ‘remain’ in new Scottish independence vote

Nicola Sturgeon admits Indyref2 may be after 2021

So with a number of recent polls, showing little change in the 55/45 split from 2014, using the perfectly reasonable & generally accepted method of asking the same question as was asked in the indyref.

So opponents of Indy hit upon the cunning plan of asking a different question.

And shock of shocks, if you ask a different question you get a different answer.

Who knew?

 

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

asking the same question as was asked in the indyref.

just because that was the question asked last time doesn't get to mean it should be the question next time.

And it wouldn't be particularly unfair if the question was changed (as long as the question is reasonable, of course), as the SNP got their own choice of question last time.

But anyway, what that different question does appear to reveal is that there's a greater awareness of the damage created by a split, which is of course a good thing. People need to know what they're getting into.

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

just because that was the question asked last time doesn't get to mean it should be the question next time.

Indeed. However you cannot compare the results of a poll using one question with the results of a series of polls asking a different question and claim it shows a reduction in support for Indy. 

It is, of course, no coincidence that this poll was commissioned by Scotland in Union.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

And it wouldn't be particularly unfair if the question was changed (as long as the question is reasonable, of course), as the SNP got their own choice of question last time.

Not quite true. Their original choice was amended by the electoral commission.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

But anyway, what that different question does appear to reveal is that there's a greater awareness of the damage created by a split,

It might do but there is no firm evidence to support your claim.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

which is of course a good thing. People need to know what they're getting into.

And out of

 

Interestingly the poll also reveals a majority in favour of another indyref by 2026 which I guess is less than a generation after the last one. I'm sure Scotland in Union were delighted with that part.

[eFestivals]

Just now, LJS said:

Indeed. However you cannot compare the results of a poll using one question with the results of a series of polls asking a different question and claim it shows a reduction in support for Indy. 

and yet it's precisely about the support for indy and shows a reduction against the previously measured support.

It's a significant shift to previous polling. It says Scots more-strongly want to remain part of the UK than you'd been thinking.

 

Just now, LJS said:

It is, of course, no coincidence that this poll was commissioned by Scotland in Union.

says the geezer who's often presented WoS commissioned polls here.  

 

Just now, LJS said:

It might do but there is no firm evidence to support your claim.

you don't think an extra 5%+ showing a dislike for indy isn't evidence that people are better aware of the costs of indy?  

 

Just now, LJS said:

Interestingly the poll also reveals a majority in favour of another indyref by 2026 which I guess is less than a generation after the last one. I'm sure Scotland in Union were delighted with that part.

i'm guessing that much like the close brexit vote, there's people on both sides who consider it unfinished business.

That's no bad thing. Democracy is a process and not an event.

Meanwhile the indy campaign hasn't progressed an inch with the practical issues that caused indy to lose in 2014, and those issues remain unsolvable. Your only hope is that England can become more-hated in order to swing indy the extra votes.

(and I've noticed greater recent attempts to help that on, shame it's with the same old bullshit)

[LJS]

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and yet it's precisely about the support for indy and shows a reduction against the previously measured support.

It is meaningless if a different question is asked. You know this.

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It's a significant shift to previous polling. It says Scots more-strongly want to remain part of the UK than you'd been thinking.

The only significant shift is on the wording of the question. As that question has never been asked before, it is impossible to conclude there has been any shift. You know this.

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

says the geezer who's often presented WoS commissioned polls here.  

WoS polls on independence use the standard question and are therefore comparable with other similar polls. You know this.

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you don't think an extra 5%+ showing a dislike for indy isn't evidence that people are better aware of the costs of indy?  

I don't know that an "extra" 5% are showing anything as we have no equivalent poll to compare it with.

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

i'm guessing that much like the close brexit vote, there's people on both sides who consider it unfinished business.

We are constantly told that we don't want another referendum. It was the bedrock of the Scottish Tory campaign  at the last couple of elections.

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

That's no bad thing. Democracy is a process and not an event.

Hey, we agree.   

 

 

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Meanwhile the indy campaign hasn't progressed an inch with the practical issues that caused indy to lose in 2014, and those issues remain unsolvable. Your only hope is that England can become more-hated in order to swing indy the extra votes.

(Yawns) we don't hate the English.

36 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

(and I've noticed greater recent attempts to help that on, shame it's with the same old bullshit)

Cue: blood & soil nonsense next.

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

It is meaningless if a different question is asked

It means what the question asked.

And unfortunately for you it means that more people want to remain part of the UK than you (and I) believed was the case.

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

I don't know that an "extra" 5% are showing anything as we have no equivalent poll to compare it with.

all of the polls which had you believing a higher number wanted to leave the UK.

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

We are constantly told that we don't want another referendum.

it's a moving target. 

For all of the time there's no current indicator for a changed result, when people think the next ref should be gets pushed down the road (to when it might give a different outcome).

Surely you've noticed?

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

(Yawns) we don't hate the English.

I didn't say you did.

I said the route to victory comes from more-hatred.

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

Cue: blood & soil nonsense next.

not following much about indy currently, then?

It's all about how 'the english' are making a mess of things and how that makes them not fit to govern such a wonderful people as the Scots, and how 'the english' are going to cause independence.

It's more pitiful than Moggs attempted coup.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by eFestivals