The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

22 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

being deliberately obtuse doesn't do you any favours. It merely makes you look as thick as the brexiters.

love you too, Neil.

22 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

But let's say you got your wish, of staying in the CU/SM permanently. You could trade freely with NI but not the rUK, where they'd be a border (cos Sturgeon's plan has been exposed as as much unicorns as JRM or Corbyn).

You may remember in the run up to a previous referendum in 2014,  Scotland was repeatedly told that it wasn't valued "partner" in the Union. Whatever the merits (or otherwise) of the Scottish government's proposals, they deserved consideration & a detailed response. They got neither.

22 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Remind me again why leaving the CU/SM is bad...?  

Because staying in them is good.

 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I have no doubt there are occasions where SNP politicians are guilty of double standards, but in fairness you will struggle to find a politician who isn't.

I'm not trying to highlight the double standards.

I'm trying to understand how the SNP &/or their supporters can reconcile their support for Westminster over-ruling a public vote "because reasons" when indy will come (if it comes) via a public vote.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, LJS said:

You may remember in the run up to a previous referendum in 2014,  Scotland was repeatedly told that it wasn't valued "partner" in the Union.

you've just made that part up.

 

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

Whatever the merits (or otherwise) of the Scottish government's proposals, they deserved consideration & a detailed response. They got neither.

so JRM and Boris and Farage, their unicorn proposals also deserved considerations and a detailed response?   

It was very easy to point out that Sturgeon's plans were unicorns, because it claimed there could be no border between the EU's single market and a 3rd country (rUK) ... and if that were possible, care to remind me what the issue is in Ireland, again? 

As soon the impossibility of Sturgeons proposal was exposed, the point of responding to it ends.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

Because staying in them is good.

so remind me again that if staying in single markets and customs unions are good, why destroying access to Scotland's biggest single market and customs union is also good...?

[LJS]

16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Why don't you tell me instead how May's deal has us out of the SM & CU immediately, to be the opposite of what I said.

I never said "immediately". I know it doesn't have us leaving immediately  you are doing your famous goalpost moving trick.

16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Is the plan to leave the SM and CU on 29th March, and I've somehow missed it?

No.

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so remind me again that if staying in single markets and customs unions are good,

Nowhere have I said staying in single markets and customs unions is good.

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

why destroying access to Scotland's biggest single market and customs union is also good...?

Not the question you asked and one we have previously covered in depth.

[LJS]

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you've just made that part up.

 

so JRM and Boris and Farage, their unicorn proposals also deserved considerations and a detailed response?   

It was very easy to point out that Sturgeon's plans were unicorns, because it claimed there could be no border between the EU's single market and a 3rd country (rUK) ... and if that were possible, care to remind me what the issue is in Ireland, again? 

The UK government's position is that we can find a solution that removes the necessity for a hard border in Ireland. (That's a border between the EU's single market & a 3rd country (UK) Another cannot because reasonable excuse to ignore the Scottish government's proposals.

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

As soon the impossibility of Sturgeons proposal was exposed, the point of responding to it ends.

Even if they were impossible, politically they deserved a measured response. They didn't get one.

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, LJS said:

Nowhere have I said staying in single markets and customs unions is good.

But Sturgeon has. She published a doc advocating it as the basis of future prosperity in Scotland.

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

The UK government's position is that we can find a solution that removes the necessity for a hard border in Ireland. (That's a border between the EU's single market & a 3rd country (UK) Another cannot because reasonable excuse to ignore the Scottish government's proposals.

but Sturgeon says the borderless border in NI is an unfulfillable fiction.

Yet she says a borderless border with FAR more trade crossing it is not.

 

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

Even if they were impossible, politically they deserved a measured response. They didn't get one.

Hmmm. When its whole basis rests upon the fiction that a whole-UK vote doesn't count for Scotland, it doesn't deserve a measured response.

It deserves treating with the same contempt for reality that the SNP are working from.

[LJS]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but Sturgeon says the borderless border in NI is an unfulfillable fiction.

Does she? You'll have a link for that?

Quote

Yet she says a borderless border with FAR more trade crossing it is not.

It's either workable or it's not. The amount of trade is irrelevant.

 

Quote

Hmmm. When its whole basis rests upon the fiction that a whole-UK vote doesn't count for Scotland, it doesn't deserve a measured response.

They are not saying that. 

Quote

It deserves treating with the same contempt for reality that the SNP are working from.

In terms of contempt for reality, the SNP are a long way down the Brexit league table.

Edited January 15, 2019 by LJS

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

It's either workable or it's not. The amount of trade is irrelevant.

so volumes can never overwhelm a system?  

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

They are not saying that. 

the SNP have *literally* been saying that.

It started out with Sturgeon wanting a veto for Scotland, a system which has *never* operated in the UK.

It then changed into "the result shouldn't count for Scotland".

The same can similarly be claimed of a Scottish indyref, now, because of what the SNP are claiming for Scotland.

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

In terms of contempt for reality, the SNP are a long way down the Brexit league table.

fairy tales are fairy tales.

Farage/Boris/JRM say we can leave the EU without harmful economic effects.

The SNP and you claim (or at least did do) can leave the EU without harmful economic effects.

Fairy tales, standing very tall.

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so volumes can never overwhelm a system?  

I didn't say that.

[Comfy Bean]

On 1/14/2019 at 8:58 PM, pink_triangle said:

I have no doubt there are occasions where SNP politicians are guilty of double standards, but in fairness you will struggle to find a politician who isn't.

Yip. After tonight’s shambles, the Scottish Tories are against a second eu vote as they think that will help the greens and snp up here when they call for another Indy vote. This is the Scottish Tories who allegedly represent a country who voted 62% remain ?!

Interesting view from the unionists alongside Neil’s point the other day. 

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

Yip. After tonight’s shambles, the Scottish Tories are against a second eu vote as they think that will help the greens and snp up here when they call for another Indy vote. This is the Scottish Tories who allegedly represent a country who voted 62% remain ?!

Interesting view from the unionists alongside Neil’s point the other day. 

Fake news! There's no meaningful Scottish vote in a UK-wide vote. You keep talking bollocks.

But as you do, care to say why you believe your vote is with ten times the vote of anyone in England?

Is it because you're special (school)? Or just because you believe Scots are more exceptional than other humans?

[LJS]

18 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Fake news! There's no meaningful Scottish vote in a UK-wide vote. You keep talking bollocks.

Funny how high leave votes in some regions of England are meaningful (when it suits your argument) but high remain votes in Scotland aren't.

18 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

But as you do, care to say why you believe your vote is with ten times the vote of anyone in England?

He didn't. You made it up.

 

[Comfy Bean]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Fake news! There's no meaningful Scottish vote in a UK-wide vote. You keep talking bollocks.

Hi Neil, this was your response to me stating that the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party were against a second eu vote. I won’t bother with a link.

Understandably they don’t like the precedent in context of another Indy vote.

I thought it widened the debate in relation to the SNP not ignoring the first eu vote incase that set a precedent should we ever see a successful Indy vote.

A point you made further up which I thought was an interesting and fair point.

The mistake here was mine, assuming you were genuinely interested in debating like an adult the pros and cons of where the snp go now with potentially 2 new referendum votes in play.

As is quite clear. I was not giving my own view further up. I was highlighting the view of the Scottish Tories. 

“Fake news” lol !

[Comfy Bean]

I don’t think folk living in Scotland are special, far from it. What do you mean by special school ?

You asked for my views and as I said at the time, I responded because I wrongly thought your request was genuine :-)

 

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

Hi Neil, this was your response to me stating that the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party were against a second eu vote. I won’t bother with a link.

no, it was in response to you making a fake claim about a UK wide vote.

There was no "country who voted 62% remain".

 

11 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

The mistake here was mine, assuming you were genuinely interested in debating like an adult the pros and cons of where the snp go now with potentially 2 new referendum votes in play.

Debating like an adult doesn't involve false claims about the mandate May is working from.

 

11 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

As is quite clear. I was not giving my own view further up. I was highlighting the view of the Scottish Tories. 

The tories don't claim that a country voted 62% remain, because it never happened.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

I don’t think folk living in Scotland are special, far from it. What do you mean by special school ?

You asked for my views and as I said at the time, I responded because I wrongly thought your request was genuine :-)

 

I made a point of saying that I didn't want to hear about the reasons for the SNP's anti-brexit stance - which I already know.

I asked specifically about your views towards the precedent of the SNP supporting Westminster in rejecting a public vote and its possible impact back onto a future indyref.

 

[Superunknown]

Sturgeon biding her time, watching this absolute shitshow unfold. Only serves to push Scotland further to indy, hope you guys do it, long overdue. Irish reunification next.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Superunknown said:

Sturgeon biding her time, watching this absolute shitshow unfold. Only serves to push Scotland further to indy, hope you guys do it, long overdue. Irish reunification next.

so you think the shitshow that is the huge damage from brexit isn't something that would be repeated by a much bigger breakup of an integrated system?

And that the Irish want to pay much more in tax so that the likes of the DUP aren't kicking off?

I think you might be wrong with both. IMO, Scotland's best chance of indy comes with the UK staying within the EU's SM & CU. There's far fewer consequences onto an indy Scotland via that.

[Superunknown]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so you think the shitshow that is the huge damage from brexit isn't something that would be repeated by a much bigger breakup of an integrated system?

And that the Irish want to pay much more in tax so that the likes of the DUP aren't kicking off?

I think you might be wrong with both. IMO, Scotland's best chance of indy comes with the UK staying within the EU's SM & CU. There's far fewer consequences onto an indy Scotland via that.

Guess we'll find out when they gain independence  

[eFestivals]

Just now, Superunknown said:

Guess we'll find out when they gain independence  

'If', you mean. 

If leaving your biggest market is a bad thing with brexit, then it's sure as hell as much worse thing with Scottish indy.

And for Ireland it needs both of NI and the republic to vote for it, and while people in the republic are in-principle very keen, there's a big distance between that principle and what might happen with the reality.

For instance, it would have RoI taxpayers paying about £2000 extra in tax each year - or the Northern Ireland population losing around £2000 each in govt spending. Neither side of the border will eat those up consequences easily.