The Dirty Independence Question

[mcshed]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

I am happy to debate the general principles.

Our relationship with rUK goes way beyond them being our closest trading partner, UK-wide companies are totally intertwined with virtually no distinction (property departments aside) between wherever in the UK they are operating. It may be Brexit's fault but if London wants to play hard with Europe we would be fucked if we took Europe's side.

[LJS]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

when you stopped claiming Scotland as morally superior* and more-left-wing and politically superior and stopped batting an eyelid at the possibility of a tax-haven** iScotland as the way to balance the books

* that claim was a regular at the start of this thread. It was the original full reason for indy.

Scotland votes more left wing and less Tory. That's all I've claimed which is true and hasn't changed.

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

** as you did the other day (and not for the first time) when you complained about the exclusion of Ireland for comparison with Scotland on GDP.

That was naff all to do with being pro tax haven and my solution was not to use GDP as a measure of well-being.

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Note: I didn't say you actively endorse a tax haven Scotland, I said you've started to free-pass the idea. Because you have.

I have never said anything which comes within a million miles of this.

I would vehemently oppose any plans to make Scotland a tax haven.

[eFestivals]

31 minutes ago, LJS said:

That was naff all to do with being pro tax haven and my solution was not to use GDP as a measure of well-being.

your initial complaint was the removal of Ireland for comparison. :rolleyes:

You liked the idea of tax-haven Ireland being included so that indy can claim it'll manage something similar.

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

your initial complaint was the removal of Ireland for comparison.

You liked the idea of tax-haven Ireland being included so that indy can claim it'll manage something similar.

Bollocks.

[eFestivals]

46 minutes ago, LJS said:

Bollocks.

your initial complaint...

On 1/27/2020 at 7:25 PM, LJS said:

For instance, he drops Ireland (surely a relevant comparator with Scotland?) because “the behaviour of multinational companies seriously distorts its GDP per capita”.

 

 

[LJS]

8 hours ago, eFestivals said:

your initial complaint was the removal of Ireland for comparison.

You liked the idea of tax-haven Ireland being included so that indy can claim it'll manage something similar.

 

6 hours ago, LJS said:

Bollocks.

 

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

 

 

1: the quote above from was not from me, it was a line lifted from an article i linked to  from the National criticising the "index of wellbeing" report.

2: it also criticised the omission of other OECD countries form the report. Bizarrely, I'm pretty sure the inclusion of Ireland would have moved Scotland further down the league table. However the other countries omitted would probably have had the opposite effect. My overall point was that the way to avoid the problem is not to omit Ireland. It is to realise that GDP is a shite measure of wellbeing.

Of course you have ignored the actual point i made in favour of one you have made up yourself.

3: Neither the article which you have wrongly attributed to me , nor anything I have actually said offer any support for Scotland being a tax haven. Its a bit like your claim that  sturgeon said a vote for the SNP isn't a vote for Independence: its made up to suit your argument which is unsupported by anything vaguely resembling a fact.

[eFestivals]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

1: the quote above from was not from me, it was a line lifted from an article i linked to  from the National criticising the "index of wellbeing" report.

utter bullshit. :rolleyes:

They're your own words. The article you quoted has it's own different words.

 

Quote

2: it also criticised the omission of other OECD countries form the report.

But you've already agreed that GDP is a poor comparitor - and it's a * very* poor comparitor if the GDP is from a tax haven.

And so the removal of Ireland is justified within the context of using GDP for comparison, no matter how poor GDP might be for comparison.

Fuck's sake.  

 

Quote

Bizarrely, I'm pretty sure the inclusion of Ireland would have moved Scotland further down the league table.

or alternatively, the conmen who encourage people to be true believers (and so then the true believers too) claim "lookie, iScotland can be like that".  
(it's not like it's not been claimed by plenty of snippers previously, very many times)

BTW, which are you? Someone with religious belief in indy, or one of the conmen? Me, I think you're intelligent enough to know the bull you're spreading, but perhaps you have drunk the kool aid after all.

 

Quote

However the other countries omitted would probably have had the opposite effect. My overall point was that the way to avoid the problem is not to omit Ireland. It is to realise that GDP is a shite measure of wellbeing.

so why don't the SNP put forwards their own better comparison Instead of pointing at Ireland?  

It's almost like you know just how much the SNP will bullshit, because they've used Ireland for comparison for at least a decade, from the rapist's "Celtic tiger" and "arc of prosperity" if not before.

 

Quote

3: Neither the article which you have wrongly attributed to me ,

again: the words I quoted above are your own, and not from the article.  

 

Quote

nor anything I have actually said offer any support for Scotland being a tax haven.

I didn't say you had. :rolleyes: 

I said you free pass stuff, because you want to leave it hanging to mug the dumb.

 

Quote

Its a bit like your claim that  sturgeon said a vote for the SNP isn't a vote for Independence:

She said it.

It's difficult to find pre-election stuff now, it's buried by the post-election stuff.

Here's a post-election one from the gob of the bullshitter: "I don’t pretend that every single person who voted SNP yesterday will necessarily support independence"

But you and her *DO* pretend that everyone voting SNP - not 6 weeks ago but 4 years ago - was mandating an indy ref.

Laughable.

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

let's put it another way: why are The National and you complaining about the omission of Ireland?

Because an indy Scotland has a deficit problem, where deficit is measured against GDP and the SNP and you claim that GDP can be massively increased* in order to address the deficit problem.

(* waaaay beyond what any other mature economy has managed with growth)

Because of that deficit problem, the true reality of SNP plans would be mega-austerity ... and the SNP will never win indy if the people of Scotland are smart enough to recognise the mega-austerity that would come with indy.

 

[eFestivals]

in other news....

Oh, whoops.

 

[mcshed]

Just now, eFestivals said:

in other news....

Oh, whoops.

 

With this and Salmond's trial maybe this year wouldn't have been such a bad year for a referendum after all.

[zahidf]

3 hours ago, mcshed said:

With this and Salmond's trial maybe this year wouldn't have been such a bad year for a referendum after all.

Bloody hell. Bit of a problem there..  

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Bloody hell. Bit of a problem there..  

it's of course embarrassing for the SNP, but I don't hold anything against them for it as a party. Any grouping will attract people with every human trait imaginable.

But it's good to see being exposed as flawed as other parties, because once upon a time there were claims of being somehow uniquely better.

[zahidf]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

it's of course embarrassing for the SNP, but I don't hold anything against them for it as a party. Any grouping will attract people with every human trait imaginable.

But it's good to see being exposed as flawed as other parties, because once upon a time there were claims of being somehow uniquely better.

Generally yes, but the Salmond stuff has the potential issue of whether the party knew...

[zahidf]

Also worth noting that the guy today hasn't been chucked out the SNP.. 

[LJS]

39 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Also worth noting that the guy today hasn't been chucked out the SNP.. 

He's been suspended pending investigation.

Is that not pretty standard?

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

He's been suspended pending investigation.

Is that not pretty standard?

you know zahid, he likes to hang by the neck until dead on accusation.  

As far as I've read (so this might be wrong) the geezer hasn't even done anything outside of the law. It's sleazy, yup, but old men are permitted in law to go for 16 year olds (male or female). 

[pink_triangle]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

it's of course embarrassing for the SNP, but I don't hold anything against them for it as a party. Any grouping will attract people with every human trait imaginable.

But it's good to see being exposed as flawed as other parties, because once upon a time there were claims of being somehow uniquely better.

Agreed. I imagine there are currently tory and labour MPs doing similar and lucky enough not to get caught.

I also agree that at times the SNP have given the impression that they are morally superior while in my view they are no better or worse than others.

[mcshed]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18224120.european-commission-reports-nicola-sturgeons-brexit-stunt-belgian-police/

First Minister: Europe loves us.

European Commission: We're phoning the polis.

[LJS]

4 hours ago, mcshed said:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18224120.european-commission-reports-nicola-sturgeons-brexit-stunt-belgian-police/

First Minister: Europe loves us.

European Commission: We're phoning the polis.

Story copied from the Daily Express.

I remember when the herald used to be a decent newspaper.

 

[mcshed]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

Story copied from the Daily Express.

I remember when the herald used to be a decent newspaper.

 

It's a nonsense that the likes of Peter Grant were trying to make out that this SNP stunt was a goodwill gesture from the EU. I'm sure Brussels police have more important things to do so nothing will happen but still it's embarrassing.

[LJS]

 

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, LJS said:

Story copied from the Daily Express.

I remember when the herald used to be a decent newspaper.

 

and I remember when the SNP used to be a decent party.

Oh, no, I don't.

Lies is their standard, and this meets their standard.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

 

more brain-dead readers - you and your mate Colin.

The reports didn't say that the SNP had been reported to the police. The reports suggested the police were involved for other reasons.

No wonder there's such shit understanding of facts and truths and people like you make it up for yourself.

Edited February 11, 2020 by eFestivals

[LJS]

On 2/10/2020 at 6:06 PM, LJS said:

Story copied from the Daily Express.

I remember when the herald used to be a decent newspaper.

 

Now it just recycles anti SNP shite from the 3 main unionist parties.

 

 

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

Now it just recycles anti SNP shite from the 3 main unionist parties.

because there cannot be any genuine criticisms of the SNP...?  

Whatever happened to those claims of better govt you used to love saying? I've been missing those.