The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

because there cannot be any genuine criticisms of the SNP...?  

Whatever happened to those claims of better govt you used to love saying?

 

Better than Johnson?

I'll go with that.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I've been missing those.  

 

[mcshed]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Whatever happened to those claims of better govt you used to love saying?

The old SNP pitch of let us do a good job at Holyrood to try and convince that we could run an independent country well was certainly more appealing than blame everything on Westminster and close are eyes to huge failings in fully devolved areas like education.

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, mcshed said:

The old SNP pitch of let us do a good job at Holyrood to try and convince that we could run an independent country well was certainly more appealing than blame everything on Westminster and close are eyes to huge failings in fully devolved areas like education.

Yup.

If it was actually possible to be a super-special run country, you might stop to wonder why no country is that outstanding country. All countries have their issues and their trade-offs and their own financial reality.

There was an article in the Guardian yesterday, along the lines of "the SNP might be crap, but they're safe for the moment because others are crapper". And while that's true, it's not something that'll hold for too much longer, because in a democracy sooner or later the people feel the ruling party needs to be replaced. I reckon it'll be hard for them to go as far as 20 years, even if the other parties stay crap.

[LJS]

14 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Yup.

If it was actually possible to be a super-special run country, you might stop to wonder why no country is that outstanding country. All countries have their issues and their trade-offs and their own financial reality.

There was an article in the Guardian yesterday, along the lines of "the SNP might be crap, but they're safe for the moment because others are crapper". And while that's true, it's not something that'll hold for too much longer, because in a democracy sooner or later the people feel the ruling party needs to be replaced. I reckon it'll be hard for them to go as far as 20 years, even if the other parties stay crap.

This makes logical sense. But its made sense before and it hasn't happened.  

in terms of ability to run a government, they really are the only show in town at the moment and for the foreseeable future. The tories appear to have no one who can come anywhere near replacing Ruth Davidson and Scottish Labour are between a rock and a hard place on the Independence question - they have already lost a huge number of voters to the SNP on this issue but polls still indicate that up to 25% of Labour voters are supportive of independence. 

If the Salmond trial doesn't reveal that the party hierarchy turned a blind eye to Salmonds (alleged) wrongdoings, the SNP look like a shoe-in for at least one further term in government.

And your right. Its not because they are great.

Its because they are not shite.

Much is made of supposed failings of the SNP in education & health. Anecdotally, when I hear people talking about their personal experiences, i hear much more that is positive & not much that is negative at all.

Incidentally, this is not me saying the SNp are above criticism in either area. No government is. 

 

 

[mcshed]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

Much is made of supposed failings of the SNP in education & health. Anecdotally, when I hear people talking about their personal experiences, i hear much more that is positive & not much that is negative at all.

Whilst I'd agree that most people's experiences of the health care system are pretty positive despite the numbers not looking great surely you don't feel the same about education, the near constant overhauling of the curriculum has caused confusion and anger amongst most parents I've spoken to, this frustration might well be worth it if it was leading to improved standards but standards have plummeted throughout.

[LJS]

25 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Whilst I'd agree that most people's experiences of the health care system are pretty positive despite the numbers not looking great surely you don't feel the same about education, the near constant overhauling of the curriculum has caused confusion and anger amongst most parents I've spoken to, this frustration might well be worth it if it was leading to improved standards but standards have plummeted throughout.

The "near constant overhauling of the curriculum" refers, I assume to the introduction of curriculum for excellence, which was devised under a labour government.

Change always creates confusion and anger. I was certainly confused when my younger 2 were going through secondary school. But I tended to blame myself for not having made enough effort to understand the new system. And I didn't sense that they got a worse education than their big brother who had completed school in 2005.

There are certainly legitimate concerns about performance in some areas of education. 

I think to claim, as you do, that standards have "plummeted" is somewhat overstating the case.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, LJS said:

Change always creates confusion and anger.

and this is why no govt lasts forever in a democracy. Each upset alienates a proportion of people, and eventually the party loses enough votes so they don't get elected.

 

[mcshed]

13 minutes ago, LJS said:

The "near constant overhauling of the curriculum" refers, I assume to the introduction of curriculum for excellence, which was devised under a labour government.

No I mean that they have never quite been happy with how CfE works so keep tinkering, things were so bad a couple of years ago that due to the lack of preparation the private schools elected to stick with the previous years curriculum leaving only the state educated pupils to sit exams that they had not had the time to be properly taught and there was hardly any published material to help with. (My focus on published material is partly that I work in a bookshop so that is the subject that I have conversations with angry parents on a regular basis.)

[zahidf]

Pretty horrendous

 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by zahidf

[zahidf]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

The "near constant overhauling of the curriculum" refers, I assume to the introduction of curriculum for excellence, which was devised under a labour government.

Change always creates confusion and anger. I was certainly confused when my younger 2 were going through secondary school. But I tended to blame myself for not having made enough effort to understand the new system. And I didn't sense that they got a worse education than their big brother who had completed school in 2005.

There are certainly legitimate concerns about performance in some areas of education. 

I think to claim, as you do, that standards have "plummeted" is somewhat overstating the case.

PISA disagrees. Was really bad in 2016 and mixed in 2018. probably a better metric than chatting to people...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-50642855

 

[mcshed]

The SNP are a blight on this country.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-51583538

As former education secretary Nicola said judge her on education. It is clear she is found wanting, even if you support independence you cannot support the failings of this regime, rapists and sex pests aside it is the way they are failing this country that should be the end of them.

[LJS]

In another place, in response to me observing that Scotgov's request for additional borrowing powers had been ignored, Neil said this...

"over 1% borrowing isn't "very limited". It's very proportionate alongside the devolved powers.

Also, Scotland has done very well out of the pandemic, because of Barnet. What has Sturgeon done with the extra 10% money she's had for Scottish furlough, for example? 
(and the extra 10% of all of the other covid spending?)."

 

 

So, the Furlough scheme is UK wide, in other words the money spent in Scotland comes direct from the treasury so does not trigger Barnett consequentials. So there is no extra 10% as claimed above. We only get additional money in areas where Westminster spending only covers England .

 

 

"The Treasury has also created several UK-wide financial support schemes, including the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, to partially fund the salaries of ‘furloughed’ workers, an expansion in entitlement to Statutory Sick Pay, support for the self-employed, and financial support for larger businesses affected by the economic slowdown. These do not trigger funding for the devolved administrations but people and businesses in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have benefitted directly."

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/coronavirus-and-devolution

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, LJS said:

In another place, in response to me observing that Scotgov's request for additional borrowing powers had been ignored, Neil said this...

"over 1% borrowing isn't "very limited". It's very proportionate alongside the devolved powers.

Also, Scotland has done very well out of the pandemic, because of Barnet. What has Sturgeon done with the extra 10% money she's had for Scottish furlough, for example? 
(and the extra 10% of all of the other covid spending?)."

 

 

So, the Furlough scheme is UK wide, in other words the money spent in Scotland comes direct from the treasury so does not trigger Barnett consequentials. So there is no extra 10% as claimed above. We only get additional money in areas where Westminster spending only covers England .

 

 

"The Treasury has also created several UK-wide financial support schemes, including the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme, to partially fund the salaries of ‘furloughed’ workers, an expansion in entitlement to Statutory Sick Pay, support for the self-employed, and financial support for larger businesses affected by the economic slowdown. These do not trigger funding for the devolved administrations but people and businesses in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have benefitted directly."

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/coronavirus-and-devolution

Soz, no extra money via furlough, but plenty otherwise - over a 5% boost to the SG's budget.

£3.6Bn extra (before the end of March, so more than that with announcements since) due to covid

Does it cost extra when a Scot gets ill*? Where's the money gone?

* perhaps we've finally found that Scottish exceptionalism, as Scots are exceptionally sick?  

Edited September 24, 2020 by eFestivals

[LJS]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Soz, no extra money via furlough, but plenty otherwise - over a 5% boost to the SG's budget.

£3.6Bn extra (before the end of March, so more than that with announcements since) due to covid

Does it cost extra when a Scot gets ill*? Where's the money gone?

* perhaps we've finally found that Scottish exceptionalism, as Scots are exceptionally sick?  

The "extra" money enables Scotland to support businesses & give extra funding to the NHS similar to what the UK government is doing. 

The issue sturgeon raised yesterday was that she might have gone further in terms of restrictions on pubs but without the money to fund financial support that would just be flinging folk onto the dole.  

Hopefully Richy Rich is going to sort all this out today anyway so it won't be an issue.

 

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, LJS said:

The "extra" money enables Scotland to support businesses & give extra funding to the NHS similar to what the UK government is doing. 

but at (proportionally) 10% extra than can be spent on the same things within England.

And amounts to waaaay more than could be realistically expected via the increased borrowing you reckon Scotland should get, and without the hassle of having to pay it back.

11 minutes ago, LJS said:

The issue sturgeon raised yesterday was that she might have gone further in terms of restrictions on pubs but without the money to fund financial support that would just be flinging folk onto the dole. 

And she can go further - 10% further.

But isn't. The money is disappearing into the Scottish ether (probably better known as target seats )

11 minutes ago, LJS said:

Hopefully Richy Rich is going to sort all this out today anyway so it won't be an issue.

I've got my fingers firmly crossed today, for myself.

But I'm not expecting Sunak to fund Sturgeon to shut pubs when pubs are not having to shut in England. If Sturgeon chooses to go further for Scotland, why should the rest of the UK pay for that?

So it won't sort it out.

But maybe she'll have to use some of that >£3.6Bn she's squirrelled away...?

Cos that £3.6Bn is enough to fund a further 7 months of furlough for Scotland at the same cost as the April-Oct UK furlough so far.

So maybe ask your glorious leader why she's not doing it as she's got plenty of funds to do it (because there's fewer peeps on furlough now than were on furlough in April)....?

 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by eFestivals

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but at (proportionally) 10% extra than can be spent on the same things within England.

And amounts to waaaay more than could be realistically expected via the increased borrowing you reckon Scotland should get, and without the hassle of having to pay it back.

And she can go further - 10% further.

But isn't. The money is disappearing into the Scottish ether (probably better known as target seats )

I've got my fingers firmly crossed today, for myself.

But I'm not expecting Sunak to fund Sturgeon to shut pubs when pubs are not having to shut in England. If Sturgeon chooses to go further for Scotland, why should the rest of the UK pay for that?

So it won't sort it out.

But maybe she'll have to use some of that >£3.6Bn she's squirrelled away...?

Cos that £3.6Bn is enough to fund a further 7 months of furlough for Scotland at the same cost as the April-Oct UK furlough so far.

So maybe ask your glorious leader why she's not doing it as she's got plenty of funds to do it (because there's fewer peeps on furlough now than were on furlough in April)....?

 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Basic-Maths-Dummies-Colin-Beveridge/dp/1119974526/ref=asc_df_1119974526/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310872601819&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1808316652406283393&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007322&hvtargid=pla-457907757052&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

 

[eFestivals]

10 minutes ago, LJS said:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Basic-Maths-Dummies-Colin-Beveridge/dp/1119974526/ref=asc_df_1119974526/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310872601819&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1808316652406283393&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007322&hvtargid=pla-457907757052&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

 

PMSL at a snipper reckoning others can't do maths.  

Scotland gets that extra 10% cos of the extra costs of doing business in Scotland. .... but this money has been support for *NOT* doing business, where there isn't an extra 10% cost.

Where's the money gone LJS? Perhaps ask St Nic? Perhaps it went on paying for the Salmond cover-up? 

Edited September 24, 2020 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

On 9/24/2020 at 8:52 AM, eFestivals said:

PMSL at a snipper reckoning others can't. Perhaps ask St Nic? Perhaps it went on paying for the Salmond cover-up? 

Snipper, st nic Plus Salmond cover up ✅ 

All in response to points around funding and covid.

Excellent stuff sir 👏

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

Snipper, st nic Plus Salmond cover up ✅ 

All in response to points around funding and covid.

Excellent stuff sir 👏

Snipper - just a short way of saying "SNP supporter". The fact you can find grievance in it says more about you than my use of it.

St Nic - you mean you don't think she's a saint? Get back to me when you're able to admit she's managed covid no better than Spaffer. Or even any criticism, as mild as you like.

Salmond cover up: either he's a man with wandering hands (or much worse) that the SNP covered up or he's been set-up by the SNP and they've covered that up. There are no possibilities outside of those by the SNP's own admissions.

True stuff. 

Edited September 26, 2020 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

All in response to points around funding and covid.

with no response by you or LJS foir where the money's gone, money that you like to think you've not had. Your bad before mine.  

I've just had fun reading a snipper banging on about how Scotland rejects "London lawyers" Talking about Starmer). Seeing how Sturgeon is a lawyer (well, solicitor, just a minor one) and isn't rejected it's clearing about London xenophobia. 

And so it goes on, endlessly. It doesn't matter a fuck what flag a nationalist wraps themself in, they're all the same.

PS: how much are you loving the true democracy of PR while demanding an anti-democratic Scottish veto today?

Edited September 26, 2020 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

59 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Snipper - just a short way of saying "SNP supporter". The fact you can find grievance in it says more about you than my use of it.

St Nic - you mean you don't think she's a saint? Get back to me when you're able to admit she's managed covid no better than Spaffer. Or even any criticism, as mild as you like.

Salmond cover up: either he's a man with wandering hands (or much worse) that the SNP covered up or he's been set-up by the SNP and they've covered that up. There are no possibilities outside of those by the SNP's own admissions.

True stuff. 

I have no issues with any of the above names. Crack on 👍 I was just highlighting the “standard” of debate around the covid finances that had been brought up 🙂 

I think it’s bad form calling Sturgeon a “ poisoned dwarf “ as you know but I’m not overly fussed if it makes you feel good 👍

Off the top of my head I think I was a tad surprised when you referred to Salmond as “ the rapist “ pre-trial but again I’m sure plenty folks were calling him that or worse.

I think Sturgeon has managed things better then Boris but your not setting a very high bar. So on that we do disagree. 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, Comfy Bean said:

I have no issues with any of the above names. Crack on 👍 I was just highlighting the “standard” of debate around the covid finances that had been brought up 🙂 

if you don't have an issue with snipper, why do you think it effects the standard of debate? It's a neutral nickname - a play on SNP and the desire to separate - that's all.

 

Quote

I think it’s bad form calling Sturgeon a “ poisoned dwarf “ as you know but I’m not overly fussed if it makes you feel good 👍

PMSL  

I haven't called her a poisoned dwarf.

Funnily enough, the only times that phrase is used is when you use it. Another of those false grievances (tho I bet you use far worse for Spaffer).

If you fantasise about not-happened grievances then Independence will not make you feel better about anything, you'll instead feel disappointed. Funnily enough, just like the brexiters will do.

 

Quote

Off the top of my head I think I was a tad surprised when you referred to Salmond as “ the rapist “ pre-trial but again I’m sure plenty folks were calling him that or worse.

Did I? You're fantasising things again.

I've talked about "the party with a rapist and cover-up or the party that framed the ex leader", but notice the "or" in there.  I'm simply pointing out that the SNP must have done one or the other, which people like you don't like to talk about.

Apologies for stretching "attempted rape" into "rape".  Really, that just means not a very competent rapist.  

 

Quote

I think Sturgeon has managed things better then Boris but your not setting a very high bar. So on that we do disagree. 

She's managed the PR and the political opportunities better, but as you say it's not a high bar.

A not-high-bar she hasn't jumped when dealing with the covid .

- she didn't call for anything different to happen than happened under Spaffer until after Spaffer's lockdown.
- she fucked up care homes worse than Spaffer, something within her *total* control.
- she backed her rules-cheat no different to how Spaffer backed Cummings.
- she pursued a zero-covid plan to the extra-detriment of the Scottish economy and has (as of latest figures) ended up in a worse place than Spaffer.
- her different rules have been more authoritarian without being significantly different in effect.
- there's areas of England under Spaffer's rules managing covid more effectively, all the way thru.
- the (proportional) extra money available to her to deal with covid has made no noticeable difference to Scottish outcomes.

Edited September 26, 2020 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

A bit like you denying you used the term separatists recently I’ll take the fact that your now denying the poisoned dwarf and rapist chat as some kind of a positive thing....in a roundabout way...but we both know what’s going down here.

I’m not checking back but would suggest you try that. It was a while back, not sure what thread but I remember we discussed it at the time and you mentioned your Mrs is short in a “ some of my best friends are black “ type of comeback 😂🙈

I have no issue with snipper, none whatsoever.

I think she has managed Covid better than Boris. Sturgeon not your Mrs although both would probably be true 🙂 

[Comfy Bean]

Ps last I noticed, Cummings was still in a job.

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

A bit like you denying you used the term separatists recently I’ll take the fact that your now denying the poisoned dwarf and rapist chat as some kind of a positive thing....in a roundabout way...but we both know what’s going down here.

I deny it because you're talking bollocks.  

What's going down here is false grievence. Talking bollocks about hatred of Scotland from England, because that's how much you have to stretch your victim complex.

 

19 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

I’m not checking back but would suggest you try that. It was a while back, not sure what thread but I remember we discussed it at the time and you mentioned your Mrs is short in a “ some of my best friends are black “ type of comeback 😂🙈

WTF are you on about?

I've checked back. It never happened.

 

19 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

I think she has managed Covid better than Boris. Sturgeon not your Mrs although both would probably be true 🙂 

What do you base your think on? Facts please, not "I think she's lovely".

Is the death rate in Scotland significantly different over the crisis? Nope.

Did Sturgeon make a better job than Spaffer with the thing* where their actions alone make all of the difference: care homes? Nope, she fucked it up worse than Spaffer.
(* rather than a virus we still don't know much about)

Did Sturgeon's 'zero covid' plan work? Nope. Because it was always doomed to fail (which even i knew).

Did she deal with school exams better than Spaffer? Nope, same fuck-up.

Etc, etc, etc.

Nice smile tho.