The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

15 hours ago, LJS said:

I await Neil's condemnation of the xenophobic Welsh government.

the welsh govt which has put equitable restrictions all-directions in the way that Scotland hasn't, you mean?

If Sturgeon put in place a "no travel outside of Scotland" as Wales have done it would mean Sturgeon would have to take responsibility for covid in Scotland - and that's the last thing she wants to do. As we keep on seeing, she wants to blame the English for covid in Scotland.

The welsh are doing something different to using the opportunity to drive the wedge as deep as they can.

 

And when Sturgeon was saying "don't visit Blackpool because it's riddled with covid", guess where was far worse? Yeah, it was that bit of Scotland which was doing covid-sharing coach trips to Blackpool.

Edited November 3, 2020 by eFestivals

[LJS]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

the welsh govt which has put equitable restrictions all-directions in the way that Scotland hasn't, you mean?

This is incorrect the Scottish Government has advised against travel - both in and out of areas with high case rates in Scotland and to other parts of the UK. This is equitable.

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If Sturgeon put in place a "no travel outside of Scotland" as Wales have done it would mean Sturgeon would have to take responsibility for covid in Scotland - and that's the last thing she wants to do. As we keep on seeing, she wants to blame the English for covid in Scotland.

A claim that you have yet to provide a shred of evidence to support.

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The welsh are doing something different to using the opportunity to drive the wedge as deep as they can.

The only difference is that they have banned travel - Scotland has only advised against it and of course Wales has a national lockdown or firebreak and Scotland doesn't.

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And when Sturgeon was saying "don't visit Blackpool because it's riddled with covid", guess where was far worse? Yeah, it was that bit of Scotland which was doing covid-sharing coach trips to Blackpool.

Except of course she didn't say that Blackpool was "riddled with Covid" - She did say it was in an area classified as high risk by the UK government which is correct. She then went on to give some very specific statistics as to why travel to Blackpool was ill- advised: here is the link to what she actually said - i've supplied this before but you clearly haven't read it.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-update-first-ministers-speech-14-october-2020/

In addition there were particular circumstances that weekend which caused her to pick that time to advise against travel to Blackpool. Comfy has already explained this but, of course you chose to ignore that as it was inconvenient for your narrative. Maybe this will help...

https://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/business/rangers-pub-blackpool-forced-close-after-receiving-1500-booking-requests-scottish-fans-3004373

Oh and it wasn't just the xenophobic SNP that was warning against this 

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/18801745.deputy-chief-constable-warns-old-firm-fans-not-come-scotland-watch-football-lancashire-pubs/

Incidentally Sturgeon also pleaded with fans not to go to each other's house within Glasgow to watch the game as well as trying to persuade Sky to show the game free of charge.

So, to summarise, Scotland has never banned or attempted to ban travel between Scotland &  England but has advised strongly against travel into & out of high risk areas both in Scotland and in the rest of the UK. In other words a consistent approach.

She made a specific appeal for specific reasons for people n ot to go to Blackpool one weekend, an appeal which was supported by the local police.

[eFestivals]

I've posted the video of her blaming covid in Scotland on England.

How the fuck is that not evidence?

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I've posted the video of her blaming covid in Scotland on England.

How the fuck is that not evidence?

Because it's not what she said. That's how.

[pink_triangle]

On 11/2/2020 at 3:53 PM, LJS said:

I didn't say you were being silly.

Although the way you put it sounded as if we should decide when to shut shops based on when Westminster will deign to provide financial support, rather than medical/scientific reasons which does seem a bit mad. As Neil has pointed out, in his own inimitable way, it has highlighted one of the flaws of the devolution settlement. 

However, putting on my realist's hat (yes I really have one) it would be crazy not to factor in the level of support available and when it is available, when making these decisions. It just makes what must be really difficult decisions, even harder.

In other news - I await Neil's condemnation of the xenophobic Welsh government...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-wales-54779031

I really struggle to decide how you implement Furlough in a devolved system. I completely understand Welsh labour and the SNP saying they want to lockdown on their own terms depending on the science. At the same time you could use the science to extend furlough indefinitely. In the he short term I see no easy option on how this is resolved.

[LJS]

4 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I really struggle to decide how you implement Furlough in a devolved system. I completely understand Welsh labour and the SNP saying they want to lockdown on their own terms depending on the science.

Its clearly difficult but, firstly its not just the SNP calling for this - the leader of the Scottish Tories said 

 "It cannot be that furlough is not affordable when Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or parts of Northern England need to go into lockdown - but when all of England goes into lockdown, the taps are turned on.

"We all hope that by following the guidance and doing the right thing, a second Scottish lockdown will not be necessary.

"But if it is, the UK government must treat Scotland the same way as England."

4 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

At the same time you could use the science to extend furlough indefinitely. In the he short term I see no easy option on how this is resolved.

You seem to be implying that this might act as an incentive for Scotland (or Wales/N.I.) to extend lockdown longer than it otherwise might due to "free" UK money.

Two points about that: 

1: lockdown damages the economy and is hugely unpopular: furlough payments only mitigate that damage in part.  There would remain huge pressure to open up the economy as soon as it makes sense.

2: Whilst Johnson seemed to say yesterday that furlough would be available after the end of this month in the devolved nations if required, it's hard to imagine they would make such a commitment on an indefinite basis. Indeed, there have already been indications that they may try and water down Johnson's "commitment" yesterday. Thank god we know that the PM is a man of his word & would never go back on a commitment.

There's also an argument that Scotland is currently saving the treasury money by not being in a national lockdown and therefore not obliging the treasury to pay as much as it otherwise would.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[eFestivals]

15 hours ago, LJS said:

Because it's not what she said. That's how.

You're sounding just like a Trumper, to add to sounding like Farage.

Dog whistles never say it explicitly. It's why they get called dog whistles.  

Her zero covid plan failed. It was always going to fail.

She shrugs off her failure by falsely blaming England/the UK, and feeds the prejudices of her fan club at the same time. It's a win-win for her.

Where did the new covid cases in Scotland come from? They came from Scots on holiday in Spain. This is a proven fact.

And not who Sturgeon falsely blamed.

Edited November 4, 2020 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

Its clearly difficult but, firstly its not just the SNP calling for this - the leader of the Scottish Tories said 

lol @ snippers cosying up to the tories.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

You seem to be implying that this might act as an incentive for Scotland (or Wales/N.I.) to extend lockdown longer than it otherwise might due to "free" UK money.

it would have certainly acted as an incentive for Sturgeon to have the UK pay for something the UK wasn't benefitting from.

And we all know how much Sturgeon likes to pretend difference in Scotland. Giving her unlimited funds to help drive the wedge she's always hammering would be even more of a fuck-up than denying her the funds.

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

Two points about that: 

1: lockdown damages the economy and is hugely unpopular: furlough payments only mitigate that damage in part.  There would remain huge pressure to open up the economy as soon as it makes sense.

July proves you wrong. Your own words at the time prove you wrong.

Despite Scotland being in a better place re covid in July, and despite Sturgeon championing a cannot-work zero-covid plan, there was you cheering on her damaging the Scottish economy because it was more important to be different (and stupid).

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

July proves you wrong. Your own words at the time prove you wrong.

 

Gosh, I never knew what I thought was that important.

[LJS]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

You're sounding just like a Trumper, to add to sounding like Farage.

Dog whistles never say it explicitly. It's why they get called dog whistles.  

Her zero covid plan failed. It was always going to fail.

She shrugs off her failure by falsely blaming England/the UK, and feeds the prejudices of her fan club at the same time. It's a win-win for her.

Where did the new covid cases in Scotland come from? They came from Scots on holiday in Spain. This is a proven fact.

And not who Sturgeon falsely blamed.

She does none of what you say. She made the general point that in part the increase in cases is caused by travel "within the UK and internationally." She doesn't mention England and gives no indication of whether UK travel or international travel was more significant. 

The study that showed 80% of cases in Scotland were of a strain that originated in Spain had not been published when Sturgeon made the statement, but in fact, it only goes to back up what she was saying.

If you hear "England" when someone says "UK and internationally" you should maybe get your hearing tested. 

Is it not a little odd if you say she is stoking up anti English xenophobia, that this is the only example you can find? If that's her aim, I have to say she is doing a pretty bad job!

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, LJS said:

She does none of what you say. She made the general point that in part the increase in cases is caused by travel "within the UK and internationally." She doesn't mention England and gives no indication of whether UK travel or international travel was more significant. 

just out of interest, have you ever heard Spaffer and co blaming other countries for infecting the UK? No, me neither.

She claims her zero-covid plan would have been successful if it' wasn't for those pesky non-scots.

Tell you what tho, let's make your criticism easy: did her zero-covid plan succeed? Perhaps you might manage to criticise her for the failure of her plan...?

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, LJS said:

The study that showed 80% of cases in Scotland were of a strain that originated in Spain had not been published when Sturgeon made the statement

there'd been nothing published - but she managed to place the blame on anywhere but Scotland anyway, and very definitely not because she had a shit plan.

How odd.

Even odder that you can't see it.

Edited November 4, 2020 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, LJS said:

If you hear "England" when someone says "UK and internationally" you should maybe get your hearing tested. 

when someone brushes off her responsibilities in the same way as Trump, that makes them like Trump.

And there's definitely no dog whistles when he does it, right?  

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, LJS said:

Is it not a little odd if you say she is stoking up anti English xenophobia, that this is the only example you can find? 

I gave a number of examples.

1. the 'border guards'.

2. blackpool

3. "my plan would have worked if it wasn't for those pesky kids".

Etc.

All of these were because of bad forrins and not anything about perfect Scotland. 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I gave a number of examples.

1. the 'border guards'.

4 nutters

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2. blackpool

Supported by the assistant chief constable of Lancashire. Is he xenophobic too?

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3. "my plan would have worked if it wasn't for those pesky kids".

You're getting desperate now.

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Etc.

All of these were because of bad forrins and not anything about perfect Scotland. 

The only person I have ever heard talking about perfect Scotland is you, Neil.

Edited November 4, 2020 by LJS

[eFestivals]

55 minutes ago, LJS said:

4 nutters

and a dog whistle of encouragement to them from Sturgeon.

 

55 minutes ago, LJS said:

Supported by the assistant chief constable of Lancashire. Is he xenophobic too?

The assistant chief constable of Lancashire didn't want Blackpool stuffed full of Typhoid Marys from Glasgow. :rolleyes: 

The point is that the problem was Glaswegians and the danger of covid in Glasgow. Not Blackpool.

 

55 minutes ago, LJS said:

You're getting desperate now.

The only person I have ever heard talking about perfect Scotland is you, Neil.

Sturgeon didn't have to blame Scotland's covid problems on other places, but that's what she's done, and done to shirk the blame of her failed plan, while giving that dog whistle.

And we all know how bad spaffer is ... but he's not done that. 

[viberunner]

 

On 11/3/2020 at 2:33 PM, eFestivals said:

I've posted the video of her blaming covid in Scotland on England.

 

On 11/4/2020 at 7:09 AM, eFestivals said:

Dog whistles never say it explicitly. 

 

Absolutely classic prime-time Neil.

 

"I have proof, on video, just don't ruin the illusion by turning the mute off."

 

 

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, viberunner said:

 

 

 

Absolutely classic prime-time Neil.

 

"I have proof, on video, just don't ruin the illusion by turning the mute off."

 

 

Classic blind cultish fake-news-er.  

Does Sturgeon blame covid in Scotland on the rest of the UK and not Scotland?

Yes she does.

TURN YOUR BRAIN ON AND TURN THE SOUND UP!!!

And do note it's "reseeded it from travel across the UK and internationally", and not "reseeded by Scots travelling TO..."

Edited November 5, 2020 by eFestivals

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Classic blind cultish fake-news-er.  

Does Sturgeon blame covid in Scotland on the rest of the UK and not Scotland?

Yes she does.

TURN YOUR BRAIN ON AND TURN THE SOUND UP!!!

And do note it's "reseeded it from travel across the UK and internationally", and not "reseeded by Scots travelling TO..."

Which clearly and explicitly means "it was they English Basturts riddled wi' the Covid invading Scotland tae kill us all with their horrible Sassenach virus."

[kaosmark2]

If the stuff Neil was referencing was the first or only time there'd been any hint of anti- English dog whistles they'd be very tenuous claims. In isolation it feels very exaggerated. 

But it's not in isolation? Sturgeon has been doing them for years, and in that context, it's easy to see these as more of that. 

[LJS]

6 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

If the stuff Neil was referencing was the first or only time there'd been any hint of anti- English dog whistles they'd be very tenuous claims. In isolation it feels very exaggerated. 

But it's not in isolation? Sturgeon has been doing them for years, and in that context, it's easy to see these as more of that. 

You'll have some examples I presume.

[kaosmark2]

25 minutes ago, LJS said:

You'll have some examples I presume.

Are you seriously going to claim that you haven't seen Sturgeon and the SNP use any anti-English rhetoric over the last 10 years?

[LJS]

37 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Are you seriously going to claim that you haven't seen Sturgeon and the SNP use any anti-English rhetoric over the last 10 years?

That's exactly what I am saying. 

Like I say, if it's so widespread, you guys will have no problem furnishing me with examples.

Random nutters don't count.