The Dirty Independence Question

[mcshed]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

Why should she resign? They have apparently not found that she "knowingly" misled parliament, which is the offence that requires resignation. UK ministers including the PM blatantly & intentionally mislead parliament regularly.

Henry McLeish and Wendy Alexander have set a Scottish precedent for resigning over fairly minor infractions. I agree that it isn't the crime of the century but do we want to hold our leaders to a higher standard? 

The thing is ministers refusing to resign is a fairly recent development in Westminster, but it has this poisonous effect that once someone does it others point at that to justify their own decisions. Do you want the mother of your new nation to install this rot right from the beginning. If people won't resign when they have clearly made mistakes where is the accountability?

I do have some sympathy for the position she is in, her relationship with Salmond is hard he was essentially her boss for years and he is such a prominent figure in the movement that her job is still somewhat entwined with his reputation so there is an uneasy power dynamic before you get into trusting a friend and what point do rumours become credible. I just wish her first instinct wasn't to lie. You say all politicians first instinct is for self protection, maybe so but maybe that's why so many people are turned off by politics. The SNP have made a big play for those voters, this sort of thing further damages public trust in politics.

[mcshed]

2 hours ago, LJS said:

However their view is clearly politically motivated with 4 of them guaranteed to find her "guilty" right from the word go.

So an SNP majority committee is rigged against her? Don't be silly.

[mcshed]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

Anyway - all may not be what it seems

 

So the behaviour of the committee with respect to leaks changes one of the SNP members views as to the facts of whether Nicola misled parliament. Obviously nothing has happened yet and this is just a tweet but if that were to be the case do you not find it outrageously political?

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

Never? Not once? You have always done the right thing at the right timei try to do the best i can 

 

I try hard to do the best I can. Its the best anyone can do

Quote

I give up. I am not worthy to share the same internet as you.😇

Try harderto  have integrity same as surgeon should. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by eFestivals

[LJS]

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

So an SNP majority committee is rigged against her? Don't be silly.

Since when was 4 out of 9 a majority?

[mcshed]

27 minutes ago, LJS said:

Since when was 4 out of 9 a majority?

It's often hard to distinguish between Greens and the SNP.

Government majority, is that better?

[LJS]

11 minutes ago, mcshed said:

It's often hard to distinguish between Greens and the SNP.

Government majority, is that better?

There is no green on the committee and the greens are not in government

[mcshed]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

There is no green on the committee and the greens are not in government

Alison Johnstone isn't on the committee?

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Alison Johnstone isn't on the committee?

As far as I can tell her place was taken by Andy Wightman.

[mcshed]

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

As far as I can tell her place was taken by Andy Wightman.

Fair enough. 

[pink_triangle]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

You are of course entitled to your own view on Sturgeon. The committee whose findings were leaked yesterday is entitled to its view. However their view is clearly politically motivated with 4 of them guaranteed to find her "guilty" right from the word go. I have already said that this is not the way the actions of senior ministers should be judged.

Fortunately, we have an independent enquiry into whether Sturgeon broke the ministerial code or not.

We also have an election in a few weeks where folk can't deliver their own verdict.

The comparison with the conduct of Johnson, Patel, Hancock etc is very relevant in the context of an upcoming election where the choice of where we are governed from is very much on the ballot paper.

Interestingly you don't note thst the SNP members were guaranteed to find her innocent. My view is her claim about forgetting meetings is not believable. In fairness I don't think you have stated it is, which leads me to think you probably have doubts about her honesty as well. Note I am not willing to accept your comparisons with tory ministers, I think we should set the bar higher.

I just don't believe you would be as understanding to the conduct if it was a tory politician. Your right the people will have their say in an election. The trouble is I don't think the Scottish people are any more sensible than the many voters in Britain and worldwide who (in my view) vote silly.

[pink_triangle]

10 hours ago, eFestivals said:

If an inquiry into as Tory had concluded the same you'd be saying very different.

While some differences in politics I feel there are similarities with the SNP and Trump Republicans. The devotion and blind support for leader and party is something in my view not healthy in politics.

[eFestivals]

20 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

While some differences in politics I feel there are similarities with the SNP and Trump Republicans. The devotion and blind support for leader and party is something in my view not healthy in politics.

Blind support nails it. There a of of similarity between sippers,brexiters and trumpers

[LJS]

5 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

While some differences in politics I feel there are similarities with the SNP and Trump Republicans. The devotion and blind support for leader and party is something in my view not healthy in politics.

 

5 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Interestingly you don't note that the SNP members were guaranteed to find her innocent.

Fair point. I have already said that this is a ridiculous way to judge the merits of senior ministers' conduct. and that it because MSP's (on both sides) will almost certainly vote along party lines which makes whatever conclusion the committee reaches worthless. That doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong - its just so open to doubt as to be worthless. 

5 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

My view is her claim about forgetting meetings is not believable.

My point is - how important is it?  Politicians mislead Parliament day in and day out, often about matters of much greater significance and get held to no account for it. 

I genuinely don't care about ministerial codes. I think politicians should resign when they have failed to do their job or have been found to be corrupt. 

5 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

In fairness I don't think you have stated it is, which leads me to think you probably have doubts about her honesty as well.

I have doubts about the honesty of all politicians. I think anyone who doesn't is naive in the extreme. When politicians lie about really important stuff like whether a country has WMD, or whether the policy they are promoting will lead to a border within the UK, they should be held to account. 

When they get the date of a meeting wrong by a few days, I think that is of lesser importance.

 

5 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Note I am not willing to accept your comparisons with tory ministers, I think we should set the bar higher.

When the man shouting loudest for Sturgeon to resign is Douglas Ross, the leader of the Scottish Tories and a member of the UK parliament, it is entirely reasonable to point out his deafening silence on the multiple flagrant and (in my view) much more serious lies his leader & his disciples have told in Westminster. 

5 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I just don't believe you would be as understanding to the conduct if it was a tory politician.

You are right. I don't like Tories. I don't like what they have done to my country (UK) in my lifetime. I freely admit that I am biased against them.

5 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Your right the people will have their say in an election. The trouble is I don't think the Scottish people are any more sensible than the many voters in Britain and worldwide who (in my view) vote silly.

We certainly don't vote as silly as voters in the rest of the UK.  Even with various forms of PR, we have only ever elected one representative of parties further right than the Tories - Ukip Brexit NF  etc etc at any level from local elections through to Westminster. And the Tories have not been the largest party at any national election since 1955.

But that's how democracy works and our democracy better reflects the will of the voters than the UK's "democracy"

5 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

While some differences in politics I feel there are similarities with the SNP and Trump Republicans. The devotion and blind support for leader and party is something in my view not healthy in politics.

That's just lazy. In terms of policies Trump's republicans and Sturgeon's SNP could hardly be further apart. If you really think Trump & Sturgeon are similar in any meaningful way,  you are living on a different planet from me.

The "blind support" you speak of does exist but it is mainly because some people believe that independence is their most important objective so they vote SNP whilst not being in full agreement with everything they stand for. 

The constitutional question has had and continues to have a huge influence on politics in Scotland.

 

[LJS]

5 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Blind support nails it. There a of of similarity between sippers,brexiters and trumpers

I admit it: I am a sipper.

[eFestivals]

3 hours ago, LJS said:

I admit it: I am a sipper.

Cos you're letting standards slip. Is up my old

[eFestivals]

5 hours ago, LJS said:

 

Fair point. I have already said that this is a ridiculous way to judge the merits of senior ministers' conduct. and that it because MSP's (on both sides) will almost certainly vote along party lines which makes whatever conclusion the committee reaches worthless. That doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong - its just so open to doubt as to be worthless. 

My point is - how important is it?  Politicians mislead Parliament day in and day out, often about matters of much greater significance and get held to no account for it. 

I genuinely don't care about ministerial codes. I think politicians should resign when they have failed to do their job or have been found to be corrupt. 

I have doubts about the honesty of all politicians. I think anyone who doesn't is naive in the extreme. When politicians lie about really important stuff like whether a country has WMD, or whether the policy they are promoting will lead to a border within the UK, they should be held to account. 

When they get the date of a meeting wrong by a few days, I think that is of lesser importance.

 

When the man shouting loudest for Sturgeon to resign is Douglas Ross, the leader of the Scottish Tories and a member of the UK parliament, it is entirely reasonable to point out his deafening silence on the multiple flagrant and (in my view) much more serious lies his leader & his disciples have told in Westminster. 

You are right. I don't like Tories. I don't like what they have done to my country (UK) in my lifetime. I freely admit that I am biased against them.

We certainly don't vote as silly as voters in the rest of the UK. 

Lack of self awareness when you vote to downgrade a whole country's lifestyle.

 

5 hours ago, LJS said:

 

ven with various forms of PR, we have only ever elected one representative of parties further right than the Tories - Ukip Brexit NF  etc etc at any level from local elections through to Westminster. And the Tories have not been the largest party at any national election since 1955.

But that's how democracy works and our democracy better reflects the will of the voters than the UK's "democracy"

Yourejust lucky with what Blair Putin place in Scotland.

5 hours ago, LJS said:

That's just lazy. In terms of policies Trump's republicans and Sturgeon's SNP could hardly be further apart. If you really think Trump & Sturgeon are similar in any meaningful way,  you are living on a different planet from me.

The "blind support" you speak of does exist but it is mainly because some people believe that independence is their most important objective so they vote SNP whilst not being in full agreement with everything they stand for. 

They won't even examine the facts around what they want and deny those facts like the worse brexiter.

5 hours ago, LJS said:

The constitutional question has had and continues to have a huge influence on politics in Scotland.

 

 

[pink_triangle]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

My point is - how important is it?  Politicians mislead Parliament day in and day out, often about matters of much greater significance and get held to no account for it. 

I genuinely don't care about ministerial codes. I think politicians should resign when they have failed to do their job or have been found to be corrupt. 

You definitely have given the impression previously that Nicola is more honest than most.  My thought is if she lies about meetings what else is she being dishonest about? You say they should resign if they have failed to do their job, surely part of doing your job is protecting tax payers money. How is going against legal advice to fight the Salmond case consistent with this part of your job?

 

11 hours ago, LJS said:

You are right. I don't like Tories. I don't like what they have done to my country (UK) in my lifetime. I freely admit that I am biased against them.

I dont like the tories either, but if Starmer did anything that I criticised Boris for, I would criticise him as well. I dont understand this football fan type partisan politics.  

 

11 hours ago, LJS said:

 

ote as silly as voters in the rest of the UK.  Even with various forms of PR, we have only ever elected one representative of parties further right than the Tories - Ukip Brexit NF  etc etc at any level from local elections through to Westminster. And the Tories have not been the largest party at any national election since 1955.

 

 

I dont really think we can look at things as left/right.  Most mainstream parties have a range of view, for example you have a high profile SNP minister not happy to say its a good thing for 2 men to get married, I would consider this quite a right wing and conservative perspective.  I think an independent Scotland would be bad for the Scottish economy which is why I think the voters are voting stupid, just as many do here and throughout the world.

 

11 hours ago, LJS said:

 

 

That's just lazy. In terms of policies Trump's republicans and Sturgeon's SNP could hardly be further apart. If you really think Trump & Sturgeon are similar in any meaningful way,  you are living on a different planet from me.

The "blind support" you speak of does exist but it is mainly because some people believe that independence is their most important objective so they vote SNP whilst not being in full agreement with everything they stand for. 

 

 

I said difference in politics there are definite similarities in terms of how the supporters act.  The demand for loyalty, blind support for leader. Always defending the leader when criticsed by anyone from a different political persuasion etc.

[kaosmark2]

I think Sturgeon sits to the right of Cameron.

[eFestivals]

From wings over Scotland.self righteous guff

Quote

Every Yes supporter in Scotland dreamed of having our own Mandela to lead us to freedom. Unfortunately, we wanted Nelson but we got Winnie instead.

 

[eFestivals]

43 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

From wings over Scotland.self righteous guff

 

Nothing anou how you're not worthy to share a country with people like that ljs?

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Nothing anou how you're not worthy to share a country with people like that ljs?

Fortunately WOS is a lot nearer to you than he is to me.

He is now known as StuAnon.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

Fortunately WOS is a lot nearer to you than he is to me.

He is now known as StuAnon.

It's a lot nearer to idiotsville than it is to me.

Looking forwards to the sectarian kickoff when the left footers are in charge.

[LJS]

 

 

[eFestivals]

Employee says employers is ok.