The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

2 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

How frequently do you think is appropriate for a referendum?

No idea.

How frequently is it appropriate to ignore the democratically expressed opinion of voters?

Whatever has happened in the past, everyone who votes SNP or Green or even Alba next month will be doing so in the clear  knowledge that their vote is a vote in favour of Indyref 2. If these parties win a majority, are you saying its perfectly fine to say they shouldn't get what they voted for?

 

[kaosmark2]

Just now, LJS said:

No idea.

How frequently is it appropriate to ignore the democratically expressed opinion of voters?

Whatever has happened in the past, everyone who votes SNP or Green or even Alba next month will be doing so in the clear  knowledge that their vote is a vote in favour of Indyref 2. If these parties win a majority, are you saying its perfectly fine to say they shouldn't get what they voted for?

Depends on how explicitly they say "a vote for us is a vote for a ref". Last time SNP said it wasn't, then claimed it as a mandate afterwards, which isn't impressive.

Now that it's explicitly stated as a vote in support of that (and other shit), I have no argument saying that it shouldn't be a referendum, except that referendums are shit.

[LJS]

27 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

Depends on how explicitly they say "a vote for us is a vote for a ref". Last time SNP said it wasn't, then claimed it as a mandate afterwards, which isn't impressive.

we've covered that before & you're wrong but hey that's history so we'll let that one pass.

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Now that it's explicitly stated as a vote in support of that (and other shit), I have no argument saying that it shouldn't be a referendum, except that referendums are shit.

Actually I agree. I am not a fan of referendums in genera I support the idea that we elect MP's / MPSs etc to make decisions and in general we should let them get on with making the decisions.  

However, I think for constitutional issues, the precedent has been set & referendums are now unavoidable.

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by LJS

[mcshed]

9 hours ago, LJS said:

2: Should there be a second independence referendum? Simple. not "how big is Scotland's deficit?" Or "would we have got a vaccine if we weren't in the UK?" or "do we have a lender of last resort?"  These are questions for a referendum campaign.  

The problem with these are questions for a referendum campaign is that the insistence that one should be held as soon as possible somewhat squeezes the time to have these debates. If the policy was referendum by the end of the term like last time then you'd have more stock saying that's a question for later, this time when the referendum has to happen as soon as possible then the answers to these questions are needed as soon as possible.

The real difference, the last referendum had to take as much time as possible as Yes were behind in the polls to start with, now the referendum has to happen as soon as possible as Yes have a lead. If support is so fickle then is a one-time simple majority enough?

 

 

 

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

wrong

So tell me when the insists properly accepted the decision of the people of Scotland.

 

wrong again

If that was wrong thre indyists would have dropped some of the bullshit lines they always use.

8 hours ago, LJS said:

 

repeating something that is wrong does not make it right.

Try taking those words on board yourself and stop claiming no consent and not a union of equals

8 hours ago, LJS said:

I agree. the standard of people in politics is not a patch on what it was in the mid 20th Century. where are the Healeys, the Jenkins, the Benns, The Footes (feet?) the Heseltines, the Howes. I coudl go on.  You can pick & choose your personal favourites

You do and when you choose shit you elevate shit.

 

8 hours ago, LJS said:

 

but there is no one I can see on the scene today (including Sturgeon) who is of that sort of calibre. It concerns me. 

She farage in a kilt

8 hours ago, LJS said:

They want to leave the oil in the ground & as they want independence

Last time they wanted to burn all the oil and indy.

8 hours ago, LJS said:

 

 they don't want funded by anyone.

Do keep up.

Except the money markets to cover the shortfall deficit.

[eFestivals]

On 4/12/2021 at 5:37 PM, eFestivals said:

A clear outline in  mamefestoes that is   voted for. Sturgeon has failed with the first so a mandate is not available

A clear bunch of impossible to deliver lies is not a mandate if you believe the words you've written there you should accept everting of brexit being righteous including the UK's right to take Scotland out of the EU.

[eFestivals]

On 4/12/2021 at 4:45 PM, eFestivals said:

A vote for the SNP or alba is a vote for the abuse of women in scotland. 

I see sturgeon wants to remove rights from women.to continue her decades long threme. High caliber Indeed.

Edited April 17, 2021 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

8 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

How frequently do you think is appropriate for a referendum?

Until you get the result you want not really joking.until the desire for it isn't raided on a false basis. Just see above for words about mutual consent and not a union of equals.i suggest Scotland get shagging and stops it's youth headingsouth for a better life.cos your kids hate the what the elders bile does to the country.

 

[LJS]

4 hours ago, mcshed said:

The problem with these are questions for a referendum campaign is that the insistence that one should be held as soon as possible somewhat squeezes the time to have these debates. If the policy was referendum by the end of the term like last time then you'd have more stock saying that's a question for later, this time when the referendum has to happen as soon as possible then the answers to these questions are needed as soon as possible.

"as soon as possible" comes with the  proviso that we have to be out of the Covid crisis - here is what the manifesto says

That ain't happening until 2022 at the very earliest so we will have loads of time to discuss these issues.

Of course the timing of the referendum will not be entirely in the hand of the Scottish government. If Mr Johnson goes back on what he has said and grants a section 30 order, he will have some say on the timing. If he doesn't and the Scottish Government decides to go ahead with some sort of referendum, you can bet your boots that this will be challenged in court which will also have the effect of delaying it.

 

4 hours ago, mcshed said:

The real difference, the last referendum had to take as much time as possible as Yes were behind in the polls to start with, now the referendum has to happen as soon as possible as Yes have a lead. If support is so fickle then is a one-time simple majority enough?

its how we've always done it (except in 1979) in UK referendums. Assuming we get a high turnout again, a simple majority is fine.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

we've covered that before & you're wrong but hey that's history so we'll let that one pass.

Actually I agree. I am not a fan of referendums in genera I support the idea that we elect MP's / MPSs etc to make decisions and in general we should let them get on with making the decisions.  

However, I think for constitutional issues, the precedent has been set & referendums are now unavoidable.

 

If their vote is for a ref they should vote for the clearly about indy parties and not the ones where other things are strongly in the mix such the greens people voting green aren't doing so because indy is their priority. 

[eFestivals]

32 minutes ago, LJS said:

"as soon as possible" comes with the  proviso that we have to be out of the Covid crisis - here is what the manifesto says

That ain't happening until 2022 at the very earliest so we will have loads of time to discuss these issues.

Of course the timing of the referendum will not be entirely in the hand of the Scottish government. If Mr Johnson goes back on what he has said and grants a section 30 order, he will have some say on the timing. If he doesn't and the Scottish Government decides to go ahead with some sort of referendum, you can bet your boots that this will be challenged in court which will also have the effect of delaying it.

 

its how we've always done it (except in 1979) in UK referendums. Assuming we get a high turnout again, a simple majority is fine.

So if you don't think. Ikl s of extra money doesn't equip the Scottish go t for finding the best post covid way forward in control of scotland how will indy improve things. 

[eFestivals]

35 minutes ago, LJS said:

"as soon as possible" comes with the  proviso that we have to be out of the Covid crisis - here is what the manifesto says

That ain't happening until 2022 at the very earliest so we will have loads of time to discuss these issues.

Of course the timing of the referendum will not be entirely in the hand of the Scottish government. If Mr Johnson goes back on what he has said and grants a section 30 order, he will have some say on the timing. If he doesn't and the Scottish Government decides to go ahead with some sort of referendum, you can bet your boots that this will be challenged in court which will also have the effect of delaying it.

 

its how we've always done it (except in 1979) in UK referendums. Assuming we get a high turnout again, a simple majority is fine.

A simple majority is fine unless your name is stergeon and you Dvocafe for some votes counting for less as she did and you backed. 

[mcshed]

33 minutes ago, LJS said:

its how we've always done it (except in 1979) in UK referendums. Assuming we get a high turnout again, a simple majority is fine.

It's how we've always done it seems a poor argument from those who wish to found a new nation but fine, realistically I don't expect it to be held on different terms but do you understand the point I'm making?

If support for something that is irreversible is small and fleeting then it might be unwise to follow that course, it would be more sound when making these irreversible overhauls to require either a supermajority or my preferred option a confirmatory referendum to ensure support over a specified period of time, say 5 years.

 

 

[eFestivals]

2 hours ago, mcshed said:

If support for something that is irreversible is small and fleeting then it might be unwise to follow that course, it would be more sound when making these irreversible overhauls to require either a supermajority or my preferred option a confirmatory referendum to ensure support over a specified period of time, say 5 years.

I agree with what you say but like brexit it's one of those things where there's no going back even if scotland demanded it.

There's other people in this who are allowed a view as much as Scotland would be.. and the English don't have to revive Scotlands preferential deal no matter how much people in Scotland might play the victim.there is no democratic right for Scotland to vote itself other people's money.and of course people in Scotland will want to go back because indy will not deliver on the lies which will be used to win it.

[eFestivals]

 

 

The way you say ljs all of Scotland's problems are caused by the UK but just as leaving the EU doesn't by itself fix any of the UK's problrems but creates a whole heap of new ones leaving the UK doesn't fix any of Scotland's problems it just creates a huge heap of new problems that carry a heavy coscto.so to justify indy please say what problems it will fix you used to say one of the problems was how few council houses get built that's in control of the SG but they don't build them.you also moaned about the quality of UK politicians who is the superstar Scottish politician coming up behind sturgeon or do the better Scottish politicians end when she does. Not Swinney surely.and sturgeon has already shown herself willing to throw herself off a cliff with egotistical brinkmanship.

[LJS]

18 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

 

The way you say ljs all of Scotland's problems are caused by the UK

 

Er, no I don't.

 

18 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

 

 but just as leaving the EU doesn't by itself fix any of the UK's problrems but creates a whole heap of new ones leaving the UK doesn't fix any of Scotland's problems it just creates a huge heap of new problems that carry a heavy coscto.so to justify indy please say what problems it will fix you used to say one of the problems was how few council houses get built that's in control of the SG but they don't build them.

They've built more than previous governments have and more than the UK government have.

18 hours ago, eFestivals said:

you also moaned about the quality of UK politicians

I quite clearly included Scotland in this. 

18 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 who is the superstar Scottish politician coming up behind sturgeon or do the better Scottish politicians end when she does. Not Swinney surely.and sturgeon has already shown herself willing to throw herself off a cliff with egotistical brinkmanship.

As is so often the case, I haven't a clue what you are on about. 

[eFestivals]

5 hours ago, LJS said:

Er, no I don't.

 

They've built more than previous governments have and more than the UK government have.

I quite clearly included Scotland in this. 

As is so often the case, I haven't a clue what you are on about. 

I'm on about Scots voting for shit politicians a sex pest putin stooge and the sex pest enabler. And no one else of the quality you say you want you get what you vote for. 

[eFestivals]

I see Sturgeon is planning mega austery to balence the books which will make tory austerity look like a spending spree. 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I see Sturgeon is planning mega austery to balence the books which will make tory austerity look like a spending spree. 

Wow,, that's a real game changer. When exactly did she say this?

I must have missed it.

 

Edit: it's ok. No need for you to reply. I know your source. 

Last time I checked, Kevin Hague is not a spokesman for Nicola Sturgeon.

Edited April 23, 2021 by LJS

[mcshed]

33 minutes ago, LJS said:

Wow,, that's a real game changer. When exactly did she say this?

I must have missed it.

Easy to miss when she's too scared to do Question Time.

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

Wow,, that's a real game changer. When exactly did she say this?

I must have missed it.

 

Edit: it's ok. No need for you to reply. I know your source. 

Last time I checked, Kevin Hague is not a spokesman for Nicola Sturgeon.

Nicola sturgeon is the spokesperson for Nicola sturgeon who has said she will balance the books via the growth commission plan a plan without growth but with a spending freeze.

[eFestivals]

On 4/23/2021 at 8:12 AM, LJS said:

Wow,, that's a real game changer. When exactly did she say this?

I must have missed it.

 

Edit: it's ok. No need for you to reply. I know your source. 

Last time I checked, Kevin Hague is not a spokesman for Nicola Sturgeon.

Do you think Hague is making up what Sturgeon says you've been saying for five plus years that growth in the economy will deal with the deficit. Now Sturgeon is saying the same thing without a plan for how to grow the economy.... But how has the growth thing gone in the last five years it hasn't and you're claiming Brexit is having a huge bad effect its not fishing isn't a huge part of the Scottish economy indy will also shrink the economy because of the tens of thousands of UK govt jobs Scotland ewill lose as well as some of the trade with ruk. Which will shrink it further. Even tho the new Scottish state will need to recreate some of those jobs there won't be external money coming into the country to fund them. Indy means austerity by Sturgeon own words if you're smart enough to join up the dots and think it through instead of taking another sip of the kool aid and telling yourself that indy can only be a wonderful thing. 

[LJS]

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Do you think Hague is making up what Sturgeon says

Yes

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you've been saying for five plus years that growth in the economy will deal with the deficit.

not exactly what I have been saying

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Now Sturgeon is saying the same thing

no she's not - as usual you & Kev are putting words in her mouth. 

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

without a plan for how to grow the economy.... But how has the growth thing gone in the last five years it hasn't

we haven't been independent in the past 5 years.

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and you're claiming Brexit is having a huge bad effect its not

you used to claim Brexit would have a huge bad effect. Have you changed your mind.

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

fishing isn't a huge part of the Scottish economy

you are right, but it is a far larger part of the Scottish economy than it is of the UK economy. and it is a huge part of the economy of the north east of Scotland.

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

indy will also shrink the economy because of the tens of thousands of UK govt jobs Scotland ewill lose as well as some of the trade with ruk. Which will shrink it further. Even tho the new Scottish state will need to recreate some of those jobs there won't be external money coming into the country to fund them.

No shit Sherlock. Who knew independence would mean we would have to stand on our own 11 million feet?

 

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Indy means austerity by Sturgeon own words

Words you will , of course, be able to quote

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

if you're smart enough to join up the dots and think it through instead of taking another sip of the kool aid and telling yourself that indy can only be a wonderful thing. 

Have I ever said Indy can only be a wonderful thing?

 

[eFestivals]

2 hours ago, LJS said:

Yes

Weak pretend sturgeobisbtvsayingcwhats she saying. 

Quote

not exactly what I have been saying

no she's not - as usual you & Kev are putting words in her mouth. 

we haven't been independent in the past 5 years.

But if you had there wouldn't have been any growth without a plan how to do it. There's no magic growth just by being independent. 

Quote

you used to claim Brexit would have a huge bad effect. Have you changed your mind.

Sturgeon says the same that it's so ad you've u need indy to escape I it ask some Scottish fishermen. For how bad it is. 

Quote

you are right, but it is a far larger part of the Scottish economy than it is of the UK economy. and it is a huge part of the economy of the north east of Scotland.

No shit Sherlock. Who knew independence would mean we would have to stand on our own 11 million feet?

Not Sturgeon who plans to o fund scotland with borrowings on n an unsustainable basis. 

Quote

 

Words you will , of course, be able to quote

You've already seen them quoted in full context but didn't understand what they mean you won't be any smarter with another link. 

Quote

Have I ever said Indy can only be a wonderful thing

If you don't think it is why are you happy to risk your children's future on it. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Sturgeon

Quote

imagine that country was taken out of the EU and the huge European single market against its democratic will.

The UK single market is even huger to Scotland four times as huge  it's bad to leave the EU single market just think  how bad it is to leave one of four times the size and how stupid it would be to choose to do it.