The Dirty Independence Question

[mcshed]

12 hours ago, LJS said:

 They used to say we would be abandoning the Northern English working class if we went for independence.

 

I think that argument can be crossed off the list.

Scotland abandoned the Labour Party before they did but they've now voted a way you disagree with so I understand why you can't abide the thought of being countrymen with them anymore.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

 

Would your brother vote? If after 52 years he feels he has no connection then surely he wouldn't care or does he still after this time hold on to his roots and therefore deserve a vote?

Not sure if he'd vote or not but if he did, he would have voted No in 2014 but I'm pretty sure he would vote Yes now.

I still don't think he should get a vote.

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

Scotland abandoned the Labour Party before they did but they've now voted a way you disagree with so I understand why you can't abide the thought of being countrymen with them anymore.

I know you don't believe that. 

There is no need to turn into Neil.

[eFestivals]

13 hours ago, LJS said:

or they could ask "would you like to live in a country that disenfranchises the poor?"

You should have a word with the Scottish govt as that's their remit.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

Maybe we can hold a referendum on whether we want a referendum?

 

Really? The 45 and Are You Yes Yet and so on predate Brexit, as did the Yellow tsunami in 2015, Indyref 2 has been on the agenda since 2014, Brexit has certainly helped with legitimacy but you are kidding yourself if you think it's the reason we're having this debate.

 

Obviously any legislation could be unpicked by future governments but the doing so would show the electorate the bad faith on the terms of the event. Or it might be a necessary escape valve for when PM Patel decides to militarise the entire coastline.

 

So last the Electoral Commission decided the leading nature of the original question was beyond the pale but by 2016 they saw that a more neutral question is even better.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/01/eu-referendums-reworded-question-welcomed-by-experts-and-campaigners

Although Leave/Remain certainly is neutral wording I do think there is a risk that it's too closely linked to Brexit in the public imagination. How about?

Become an independent nation.

Remain part of the United Kingdom.

 

I think it is possible to argue that Scexit is a more fundamental change to the nature of society then Brexit and therefore requires more careful consideration. There is the fact that the EU has a reentry mechanism but the UK does not.

 

Same for both you have to be wanted and Indy is already lying about being wanted in the EU.

 

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

There is also the fact that this is already a second referendum, part of the logic of one off referenda being a simple majority is that the unique nature of such events forces the electorate to weigh the options more heavily as they are coming to a final result. This is demonstrably not a one off event it's IndyRef2 a victory for Leave/Yes/Independence only shows fluctuating opinion over the last decade not necessarily the settled will, a supermajority or consecutive victories would regain some of that authority.

So this situation is materially different from Brexit but even if it weren't, "those boys did it first" is poor argument for bad behaviour from a school child let alone from the local government. There is a lot wrong with how Brexit was conducted and that should not be a model for how Scotland behaves.

 

Brexit took their lead from the last indie campaign. Make outrageous blues and claim the facts are project fear.

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

I would say anyone who is eligible for automatic Indy Scottish nationality(presumably they need to be currently British nationals for this to be automatic) should be eligible for the vote as it clearly effects them. So yes that includes Scots beyond rUK, I also agree that those living and working here should get the vote regardless of nationality or settled status. I suspect rUK based Scots would be easier to arrange than the rest of the world but I'm not opposed to any Scot having a vote. There is also the fact that moving to England isn't emigrating it is moving within the same country it seems very unfair to disenfranchise anyone for a decision they didn't know they were making.

 

As long as Scotland agrees to take on the liabilities pensions, etc,  of those it give a franchise to.

 

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

Would your brother voIThe f after 52 years he feels he has no connection then surely he wouldn't care or does he still after this time hold on to his roots and therefore deserve a vote?

He got out and found somewhere better.

[mcshed]

41 minutes ago, LJS said:

I know you don't believe that. 

There is no need to turn into Neil.

I was geniuenly angry at what seemed to amount to sneering at northern working class voters for lashing out against the British establishment at the ballot box with Brexit it much the same way Scottish voters did with the SNP. This sneering attitude that is rife on the left is part of why those voters are increasingly transitioning to voting Tory. I still feel as much solidarity with those left behind in the north of England as I do with those in Glasgow. I think both the administrations in Holyrood and Westminster are failing them both and hope a resurgent Labour can reunite these groups to the benefit of everyone.

Your attitude seemed to be you Brexited so fuck off.

[mcshed]

9 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Same for both you have to be wanted and Indy is already lying about being wanted in the EU.

Well when I was talking about rejoining the EU I was talking about the UK doing it. Part of Scotland's claims that joining the EU would be easy is because there is legislation in the treaties for rejoining which is easier than joining, Scotland would be in something of a unique position and would be reliant on good will to be allowed to using the rejoining mechanism but again that wasn't what I was talking about.

My point was if the UK wants to rejoin the EU then the treaties of the EU make it clear how we could go about doing so, if Scotland wanted to rejoin the UK there is no mechanism for doing so hence the Indy referendum is less reversible than the Brexit one.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Well when I was talking about rejoining the EU I was talking about the UK doing it. Part of Scotland's claims that joining the EU would be easy is because there is legislation in the treaties for rejoining

 

But still subject to being wanted by other members.im not sure Scotland is, it would be a financial drainnon other members and keeps showing bad faith towards member obligations....

7 minutes ago, mcshed said:

 

which is easier than joining, Scotland would be in something of a unique position and would be reliant on good will to be allowed to using the rejoining mechanism but again that wasn't what I was talking about.

My point was if the UK wants to rejoin the EU then the treaties of the EU make it clear how we could go about doing so, if Scotland wanted to rejoin the UK there is no mechanism for doing so hence the Indy referendum is less reversible than the Brexit one.

..the reliant on good will part causes problems. Why would the EU want a member which will campaign on not following membership rules (not respect the deficit limits or want to follow thru on joining the Euro)

[LJS]

3 hours ago, mcshed said:

I was geniuenly angry at what seemed to amount to sneering at northern working class voters for lashing out against the British establishment at the ballot box with Brexit it much the same way Scottish voters did with the SNP. This sneering attitude that is rife on the left is part of why those voters are increasingly transitioning to voting Tory. I still feel as much solidarity with those left behind in the north of England as I do with those in Glasgow. I think both the administrations in Holyrood and Westminster are failing them both and hope a resurgent Labour can reunite these groups to the benefit of everyone.

Your attitude seemed to be you Brexited so fuck off.

If I'm sneering at anyone (& I'm not sure I am) its the Labour supporters who have criticised those like me who have stopped voting Labour because I was apparently abandoning my comrades in the North of England.

Considering large swathes of these comrades now vote Tory, I'm sure you will understand that I now find such criticism slightly ironic.

I reserve the right to be critical of anyone who thought Brexit was a good idea just as you have the right to be critical of anyone who thinks Scottish Independence is a good idea.

I also reserve the right to be critical of anyone who thinks B Johnson is a fit and proper person to be PM.

I too share your hopes for a resurgent Labour Party and would always prefer a UK Labour government. It just doesn't happen very often, does it?

I look forward to being able to return to voting Labour in an independent Scotland where they might just have a chance of forming a government.

 

 

[eFestivals]

3 hours ago, mcshed said:

Well when I was talking about rejoining the EU I was talking about the UK doing it. Part of Scotland's claims that joining the EU would be easy is because there is legislation in the treaties for rejoining which is easier than joining, Scotland would be in something of a unique position and would be reliant on good will to be allowed to using the rejoining mechanism but again that wasn't what I was talking about.

Scotland would not be rejoining Scotland was never a member of the EU.good will is a two way thing Scotland is not showing itself as a good future member because indyists talk about not following the rules. And other members don't want the hasleb of a new member cos that'll need to hold referendums about it.

3 hours ago, mcshed said:

My point was if the UK wants to rejoin the EU then the treaties of the EU make it clear how we could go about doing so, if Scotland wanted to rejoin the UK there is no mechanism for doing so hence the Indy referendum is less reversible than the Brexit one.

I get the point that there's no way back into theuk for Scotland. But the risk that they might want to because Indy is shit is what they need to consider when voting for Indy.

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Scotland would not be rejoining Scotland was never a member of the EU.good will is a two way thing Scotland is not showing itself as a good future member because indyists talk about not following the rules. And other members don't want the hasleb of a new member cos that'll need to hold referendums about it.

I get the point that there's no way back into theuk for Scotland. But the risk that they might want to because Indy is shit is what they need to consider when voting for Indy.

Aw, Neil. Will ye no have us back when we come crawling half starving out of our caves to beg to be allowed to rejoin the glorious Union?

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, LJS said:

Aw, Neil. Will ye no have us back when we come crawling half starving out of our caves to beg to be allowed to rejoin the glorious Union?

If Scotlans decision is to cause itself poverty it's people don't want it's no englands responsibility to bail you out if you believe you have a free choice to leave then England has a free choice to refuse you back.

[LJS]

39 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

If Scotlans decision is to cause itself poverty it's people don't want it's no englands responsibility to bail you out

Oh I thought that was the situation now.

39 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

if you believe you have a free choice to leave

You saying we don't?

39 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

then England has a free choice to refuse you back.

 

[eFestivals]

40 minutes ago, LJS said:

Oh I thought that was the situation now.

 

No that's the not very civil indie myth where you claim to not to be equal partners what is Scotland vdenied that other parts of the union gets?

 

 

40 minutes ago, LJS said:

You saying we don't?

 

I'm saying scotlsnd claims it does, to say that the same basis can be used to refuse Scotland rejoining the union.

40 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

Scotland won't live at current standards when living is without England's money.

It's only fair that I should let you know

You always smile butbinn your eyes the sorrow shows.

[Comfy Bean]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

Aw, Neil. Will ye no have us back when we come crawling half starving out of our caves to beg to be allowed to rejoin the glorious Union?

The cave chat was one of many highlights from Neil on here over the years. Absolute scenes 👏 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

The cave chat was one of many highlights from Neil on here over the years. Absolute scenes 👏 

That was me trying to get thru to you the idea that you'd be voting yourself poorer with indie have you wished up enough to realise it yeah or do you still think you magically become richer via indy.

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

That was me trying to get thru to you the idea that you'd be voting yourself poorer with indie have you wished up enough to realise it yeah or do you still think you magically become richer via indy.

I never thought that I’d become “financially” richer via Indy. 
I think the Tories keep trying to tempt me with lower tax but unlike some, I’m not and never will be tempted to vote for them 🙂

They will of course continue to be in charge of UK Govt. I’m resigned to that as you know 😞 

Perhaps someday folks living in Scotland will get a government they vote for.

 

[eFestivals]

36 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

I never thought that I’d become “financially” richer via Indy. 

 

 

So you never bought the Indy lie that the UK is fleecing Scotland?

 

You did you argued it in the past

Quote

 

 

 

I think the Tories keep trying to tempt me with lower tax but unlike some, I’m not and never will be tempted to vote for them 🙂

They will of course continue to be in charge of UK Govt. I’m resigned to that as you know 😞 

Perhaps someday folks living in Scotland will get a government ttha respects theirvote

Not with the SNP you won't

Corrected that last bit for you

[LJS]

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

So you never bought the Indy lie that the UK is fleecing Scotland

Did I see the goalposts move?

I'm sure I did.

[eFestivals]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

Did I see the goalposts move?

I'm sure I did.

So you've never heard an Indy supporter claim that the UK won't to let Scotland go because of the money Scotland is providing for the UK by that sort of victimised guff is quite a standard thing..indyists have over active not very civic imaginations.. all based around the evil english.

Edited May 13, 2021 by eFestivals

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So you've never heard an Indy supporter claim that the UK won't to let Scotland go because of the money Scotland is providing for the UK by that sort of victimised guff is quite a standard thing..indyists have over active not very civic imaginations.. all based around the evil english.

You weren't accusing some random indy supporter. You were accusing Comfy. 

In other news I see your clerical neighbour in Bath has announced his retirement.

[Comfy Bean]

11 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

So you never bought the Indy lie that the UK is fleecing Scotland?

 

You did you argued it in the past

 

You have either not read, or failed to understand the post you are responding to here mate 🤷‍♂️

[eFestivals]

37 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

You have either not read, or failed to understand the post you are responding to here mate 🤷‍♂️

The arguments against Indy are never valid because the facts don't matter.

[LJS]

So, I'm sure we have all seen the events in Glasgow today where the Home Office decided to Celebrate Eid by conducting a dawn raid in the part of Glasgow with the highest concentration of Muslims in Scotland (I know - its where I am from)

I'm not going to make any political capital out of this because there are communities all over the UK who have defended folk they see as members of their communities against the Home Office and their hostile environment.

No, the point I want to make is that I have no doubt that amongst the hundreds of folk who took to the streets in solidarity, there will have been some who voted Tory last week just to keep the SNP out but who passionately oppose everything the Tories stand for. 

This is why we need to move on from the constitutional debate and the only way to do that is Indyref 2.

p.s. Glasgow rocks

[mcshed]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

This is why we need to move on from the constitutional debate and the only way to do that is Indyref 2.

*Citation needed.

[eFestivals]

11 hours ago, LJS said:

So, I'm sure we have all seen the events in Glasgow today where the Home Office decided to Celebrate Eid by conducting a dawn raid in the part of Glasgow with the highest concentration of Muslims in Scotland (I know - its where I am from)

I'm not going to make any political capital out of this because there are communities all over the UK who have defended folk they see as members of their communities against the Home Office and their hostile environment.

No, the point I want to make is that I have no doubt that amongst the hundreds of folk who took to the streets in solidarity, there will have been some who voted Tory last week just to keep the SNP out but who passionately oppose everything the Tories stand for. 

This is why we need to move on from the constitutional debate and the only way to do that is Indyref 2.

p.s. Glasgow rocks

There's been a few full on riots near me when similar has happened Bristol rocks much more and England has a a lower hate crime murder rate than Scotland.