The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

57 minutes ago, Neil said:

this line jumped out at me....

from https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/29/a-broader-view-of-old-scotlands-languages

I don't know anyone who claims Gaelic is " the original language of the whole of Scotland"

The Scots language is the language of most Scots.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

[Neil]

7 hours ago, LJS said:

I don't know anyone who claims Gaelic is " the original language of the whole of Scotland"

The Scots language is the language of most Scots.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

Can't be true, English must be more universal.immigrants are unlikely to speak the Scots language and you've just othered them all. 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

Can't be true, English must be more universal.immigrants are unlikely to speak the Scots language and you've just othered them all. 

The relationship between Scots and English is a complex one. In reality most of us speak a mixture of Scots and English. They share similar roots and for that reason it is easy to think Scots is a dialect of English.

People much more learned than me will tell you otherwise though.

Of course most immigrants won't speak Scots, any more than immigrants to Ireland will speak Irish Gaelic so I have no idea what point you are making.

I have not othered anyone.

Incidentally I write pretty exclusively in English but speak very differently.

@Comfy Bean would be able to confirm as he comes from an area which particularly values the Scots language.

[Neil]

8 hours ago, LJS said:

People much more learned than me will tell you otherwise though.

like the writer of that piece. 😛 

and tghose who use it to other people, "no true scotsman". 😛 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Neil

[Comfy Bean]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

The relationship between Scots and English is a complex one. In reality most of us speak a mixture of Scots and English. They share similar roots and for that reason it is easy to think Scots is a dialect of English.

People much more learned than me will tell you otherwise though.

Of course most immigrants won't speak Scots, any more than immigrants to Ireland will speak Irish Gaelic so I have no idea what point you are making.

I have not othered anyone.

Incidentally I write pretty exclusively in English but speak very differently.

@Comfy Bean would be able to confirm as he comes from an area which particularly values the Scots language.

I’ve had a read at the article and your comments and an struggling to find even the smallest hint of “othering”. 
I can only assume that Neil struggles with the concept of quotation marks ?

I don’t see any mention of “no true Scotsman” but maybe I missed it ?

I think it’s more a case of haters gonna hate. Round my way we’ve got plenty of the hate but it’s more around folks wishing they were back in 1690 and religion. Folk hate the idea of independence due to their love for the Union Jack. I’ve yet to meet anyone who’s thoughts on indy are motivated by hating English folk. I accepted long ago that in Neil’s dark world, it’s all about hate 😞 

Was away at the weekend so missed the big game. Gotta love a last minute winner 😉 

[Neil]

22 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

I’ve had a read at the article and your comments and an struggling to find even the smallest hint of “othering”. 
I can only assume that Neil struggles with the concept of quotation marks ?

anyone who disagrees with LJS's take on what is scots language cannot be a scot in his take cos "The Scots language is the language of most Scots."  if they think they're speaking English, they cannot be Scottish.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Neil

[Neil]

22 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

I don’t see any mention of “no true Scotsman” but maybe I missed it ?

it's LJS who does that with "The Scots language is the language of most Scots." 😛 

[Neil]

24 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

I’ve yet to meet anyone who’s thoughts on indy are motivated by hating English folk.

you need to meet more indy supporters then, cos that's a strong theme amongst them, as can be seen  in plenty of contributions to online discussions about indy. the anti-english stuff almost always appears and isn't called out by others.

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

it's LJS who does that with "The Scots language is the language of most Scots." 😛 

Are you talking about regional differences or localised “slang” ? You get that everywhere in my experience, same with different accents.

[Comfy Bean]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

you need to meet more indy supporters then, cos that's a strong theme amongst them, as can be seen  in plenty of contributions to online discussions about indy. the anti-english stuff almost always appears and isn't called out by others.

Of course there will be some, I’ve genuinely never met them. The world is full of idiots. 
I’ve also never met anyone who is pro unionist just because they love England.

I think you overthink Englands importance in all this. I don’t think it’s got much to do with love or hatred Wales or Ireland either.

[Neil]

9 minutes ago, Comfy Bean said:

Of course there will be some, I’ve genuinely never met them. The world is full of idiots. 
I’ve also never met anyone who is pro unionist just because they love England.

most people think the division of Ireland is idiotic, because dividing a small island is a stupid idea. the same would be true for great Britain, Scotland's inferiority complex doesn't justify it.

 

 

[LJS]

5 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

 Was away at the weekend so missed the big game. Gotta love a last minute winner  

Yeah  - you would have enjoyed it - needless to say I didn't😝

Maybe catch you at one of our other encounters.

5 hours ago, Neil said:

anyone who disagrees with LJS's take on what is scots language cannot be a scot in his take cos "The Scots language is the language of most Scots."  if they think they're speaking English, they cannot be Scottish.

You're havering as always Neil. There is absolutely nothing about  "The Scots language is the language of most Scots" that suggests anyone who doesn't speak it is any less Scottish and I have no idea where you got "if they think they're speaking English, they cannot be Scottish" from - its certainly not something I said .. or would ever say.

 

As for your hatred nonsense, we have been over this ground so many times and still you think that reading BTL in the Guardian gives you a better understanding of Scots & Scotland than people who actually live here. 

I have no illusions that there is any prospect of of that altering any time soon.

[Neil]

41 minutes ago, LJS said:

Yeah  - you would have enjoyed it - needless to say I didn't😝

Maybe catch you at one of our other encounters.

You're havering as always Neil. There is absolutely nothing about  "The Scots language is the language of most Scots" that suggests anyone who doesn't speak it is any less Scottish and I have no idea where you got "if they think they're speaking English, they cannot be Scottish" from - its certainly not something I said .. or would ever say.

 

i'm just following what you said to its logical conclusion.

41 minutes ago, LJS said:

 

As for your hatred nonsense, we have been over this ground so many times and still you think that reading BTL in the Guardian gives you a better understanding of Scots & Scotland than people who actually live here. 

not just there its anywhere there's discussion of Scottish indy, its almost like the two things are strongly related.

41 minutes ago, LJS said:

I have no illusions that there is any prospect of of that altering any time soon.

me neither, indy-ist 's want to encourage it as i gives  the possibility of a yes vote some momentum.

[LJS]

8 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

i'm just following what you said to its logical conclusion.

No you're not. You're making shit up.

 

Either that or you don't understand English 😉🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

[Neil]

3 hours ago, LJS said:

Either that or you don't understand English 😉🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

 no, you don't because you're talking scottish/pish

[LJS]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

 no, you don't because you're talking scottish/pish

Nice reasoned argument there, Neil

 

[Neil]

23 minutes ago, LJS said:

Nice reasoned argument there, Neil

or a fail by you to be consistent.

[Comfy Bean]

6 hours ago, LJS said:

Yeah  - you would have enjoyed it - needless to say I didn't😝

Maybe catch you at one of our other encounters.

 

👍🍺 Hard season to predict this year. Anyone could make the playoffs at either end.

[Neil]

10 hours ago, Comfy Bean said:

👍🍺 Hard season to predict this year.

i predict rangers and celtic will be the top two. 😛 

</safe money>

[LJS]

2 hours ago, Neil said:

i predict rangers and celtic will be the top two. 😛 

</safe money>

Wrong league, Neil.

The Honest Men and the Spiders play in the Scottish championship.

P.S. you can have the old firm in your league if you'd like them. We wouldn't miss them.

[balti-pie]

This is nothing to do with scottish independence really, i just love scottish lower league football - the Highland league is my main focus though, i'm off to the mighty Clachnacuddin next weekend and i cant bloody wait! i've been to a fair few of the Highland league grounds and its a beautiful part of the world, and i'm sure i'll move onto looking at scottish league grounds soon enough as well. What are the pies like at Ayr? 

[LJS]

2 hours ago, balti-pie said:

This is nothing to do with scottish independence really, i just love scottish lower league football - the Highland league is my main focus though, i'm off to the mighty Clachnacuddin next weekend and i cant bloody wait! i've been to a fair few of the Highland league grounds and its a beautiful part of the world, and i'm sure i'll move onto looking at scottish league grounds soon enough as well. What are the pies like at Ayr? 

Yeah we digressed a wee bit due to ComfyBean & myself both supporting lower league teams. I doubt there is much future in starting a "lower league Scottish Football" thread. The only Highland League ground I have been too is Elgin many years ago - of course they have now moved up to big boy's football but I was at Inverness to see my team the weekend before last & we made a weekend of it & had a whale of a time. I have been to Somerset Park (Ayr's ground) a couple of times but can't remember what the pies were like. It's a real proper old fashioned football ground & if you haven't been, I would highly recommend it.

[Neil]

i read a book on footy stats a while back, which said all tiers of Scottish footy was the best supported in the world.

[LJS]

26 minutes ago, Neil said:

i read a book on footy stats a while back, which said all tiers of Scottish footy was the best supported in the world.

Maybe something to do with the relatively huge number of League clubs. We have a club for every 120,000 folk. England has one for every 800,000. It means we have league teams in towns with populations of under 10,000.

 

[Neil]

47 minutes ago, LJS said:

It means we have league teams in towns with populations of under 10,000.

same down here but those small  clubs don't get the same crowds the clubs in scotland get.