sometimes, I just feel like crying......

[kaosmark2]

this is probably 'our' (yours and mine) fundamental difference. You, generally, seem ok with the status quo. That's not a criticism... I have no reason to believe I understand anything really

[kaosmark2]

I don't think there is a status quo anymore... it was more a reference to previous debates with Barry F

although there are definitely stereo-types that are conveniently perpetuated by advertisers and such (which I think is where this topic came in...)

[feral chile]

Your losing the plot here a little bit....

You simply can not get away from some of the realities of the world. Mainly the women gives birth to the child and everything which flows from and to that point...

Women are balanced to nest and ultimately mother... Hence cooking for the family is something a mother will do and a child will copy... Both boys and girls play kitchen due to copying its parents... but there is no doubt something in a girl that wants a "baby dolly" and wants dress it up and cook for it more so than the male...

I don't believe its mainly some sort of re-enforcement from outside things... Its inside a women to do these things... Like hunting, gathering etc is inside a man...

Why should a human be the only species that out thinks its biology ?

So why do some boy want to play dress up and some girls play army... Are bodies are not perfect works of art... Its a big mix bag... Some girls will no doubt have some male elements and some men female elements floating around them...

[feral chile]

It's the problem of fitting in, too. Every time I played with the other girls, I was bored rigid. they just wanted to play house or make perfume out of rosewater. And the boys, who seemed to have a much more exciting time making dens and building campfires, didn't want to play with girls.

I ended up with a very small group of friends that I could be a bad influence over.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

It's the problem of fitting in, too. Every time I played with the other girls, I was bored rigid. they just wanted to play house or make perfume out of rosewater. And the boys, who seemed to have a much more exciting time making dens and building campfires, didn't want to play with girls.

I ended up with a very small group of friends that I could be a bad influence over.

[Jaybles]

I wasn't a girly girl. I'm not a girly woman either. I used to play with cars and action figures as a child, I had toy garages etc.

[feral chile]

Nice....you are in to cars.

(image in my head)

[feral chile]

unlikely I'd have thought..

http://www.guardian....ised-images-ban (various [women's] groups seeking a ban on sexualised images)

it's hard (for me) not to think it's all connected in many ways

[grumpyhack]

Maybe I'm just an old fart these days but girls trying to emulate laddish behaviour seems to be levelling down not up

It's a hard one (no pun intended). But I do get disturbed (again no pun intended) by the sight of young women in Cardiff late at night staggering around drunk, falling out of their tops and with skirts barely covering anything. .

Mixed messages all round in situations like that.

[feral chile]

Maybe I'm just an old fart these days but girls trying to emulate laddish behaviour seems to be levelling down not up

It's a hard one (no pun intended). But I do get disturbed (again no pun intended) by the sight of young women in Cardiff late at night staggering around drunk, falling out of their tops and with skirts barely covering anything. .

Mixed messages all round in situations like that.

[eFestivals]

Feminism, now, feels very different to what it used to be. It seems too much of a catch-all for too many different things.

there was a piece around this sort of idea on Newsnight last night, with Louise Mench talking the standard ignorant tory bollocks while calling herself a femanist and proving that she's anything but.

[The Nal]

not being patronising (something else I can be accused of...) helps

[eFestivals]

[feral chile]

It's difficult. I think I come over as being a bit pompous.... I don't think I am (obviously). I have male colleagues who are as testosterone fuelled as anyone. I go out with them, we have a laugh... I understand them, they understand me, they take the piss out for me for being the way I am... I do what I do. I think if you're consistent, people start to understand, little by little

not being patronising (something else I can be accused of...) helps

[feral chile]

that's why I think any progress (?) can only be made if we see any problem (at all, firstly) as being for both genders. And in the end, just the word - feminism - feels as divisive as anything.

[kaosmark2]

And men still aren't really allowed to be emotional - it's better than it used to be, and particularly younger men seem to feel able to show a softer side to their personalities, but men still have this machismo thing to face.

[grumpyhack]

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I think men are still under a lot of social pressure to be seen as strong, successful, high achievers etc. and they can suffer discrimination if they're in a predominantly female (or perceived female) role. If the wife's out at work while the husband is the caregiver to the children, it's often frowned on, especially in America. And male nannies etc.

And men still aren't really allowed to be emotional - it's better than it used to be, and particularly younger men seem to feel able to show a softer side to their personalities, but men still have this machismo thing to face.

And I think feminists are misguided in seeing Thatcher as a role model, because she represented the type of feminism whereby you're competing with men on their rules, when we should be looking at the rules.

We had a prime opportunity to show how a woman prime minister could change society for the better, and most of her policies actually hindered the opportunities for most women.

She had a unique opportunity to promote values that women traditionally hold, like compromise, interpersonal relations etc. and instead she embraced traditionally masculine values such as power and obstinacy (dressed up as strength - 'the lady's not for turning', 'the iron lady' etc. But I think she was forced to stress this, as she would have lost credibility if she had used a softer approach.

Until we can accept that leaders can lead with a carrot and not always have to drive with a whip, we'll only accept leaders who display traditionally masculine, confrontational styles of authority.

[feral chile]

I appreciate that you're largely simply outlining traditional stereotypes but I'm not happy with the male stereotype of men being powerful and strong or women being compromisers etc. Until we consign the stereotypes to the bin of history yong men and women will still be pressured to conform to those stereotypes.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I have never got the idea of stereotypes. Maybe it is the fact of spending a good chunk of my working life around nurses. Even in the military the women I worked with never fitted into the stereotype what is laid out for them. i.e. Either butch lesbians or tarts. I always found them to be very comfortable in the environment and never afraid to express their sexuality. I have never been a grrr type of bloke and I would often prefer their company to that of squaddies. As I medic in the army that got me a reputation as gay but who cared/

[grumpyhack]

I'd like to think that we encourage everyone to aspire to be decent, honest and caring. That shouldn't be a gender or a sexual orientation matter.

But just to lighten things, someone sent me this tonight. Stereotyping or not?

Bottle of Wine

A woman and a man are involved in a car accident on a snowy, cold Monday morning; it's a bad one..

Both of their cars are totally demolished, but amazingly neither of them is hurt. God works in mysterious ways.

After they crawl out of their cars, the man is yelling about women drivers.

The woman says, 'So, you're a man. That's interesting. I'm a woman.

Wow, just look at our cars! There's nothing left, but we're unhurt.

This must be a sign from God that we should be friends and live in peace for the rest of our days.'

Flattered, the man replies, 'Oh yes, I agree completely, this must be a sign from God!

But you're still at fault...women shouldn't be allowed to drive.'

The woman continues, 'And look at this, here's another miracle.

My car is completely demolished but this bottle of wine didn't break.

Surely God wants us to drink this wine and celebrate our good fortune.

She hands the bottle to the man.

The man nods his head in agreement, opens it and drinks half the bottle and then hands it back to the woman.

The woman takes the bottle, puts the cap back on and hands it back to the man.

The man asks, 'Aren't you having any?'

The woman replies, 'No. I think I'll just wait for the police...'

MORAL OF THE STORY:

Women are clever, evil bitches.

Don't mess with them.

Edited January 27, 2012 by grumpyhack

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I'd like to think that we encourage everyone to aspire to be decent, honest and caring. That shouldn't be a gender or a sexual orientation matter.

[feral chile]

Here, here. That's the way forward.

[grumpyhack]

I'd like to think so. But when you look at who gets the biggest financial rewards, public recognition, prestige and influence in our society, I fear that a very different message is going out to our young.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

but you're aware of the stereotypes..? no?

[feral chile]

if you never went to the cinema, watched tv, or ever went anywhere, I'd understand that. It's everywhere, advertising, just about any hollywood film, most tv, (still!!) most comedy, etc, etc, relies on, and perpetuates the stereotypes

Edited January 31, 2012 by feral chile