£26,000 Benefit Cap

[eFestivals]

The average in the UK for children per family is 1.8 Any welfare system has to have reasonable boundaries. Saying FOUR times that number is excessive is not unreasonable. Its common sense.

I would suggest any parent having eight children and cramming them into a three bedroom house needs to look at themselves before the government for who to blame for their poverty.

you are a small minded self-centred moron. Me me me me me and only me.

You are perfect, it's everyone else that's scum, eh?

Except you're worse than any benefit cheat, driven far more than they are by personal greed.

[eFestivals]

No they can't... Some people get unlucky or can't be arsed... The world is a cruel place... Did no one warn you ?

Your fluffy communist utopia isn't all that great either. Or did North Korea pass you by ?

I wonder where the people of North Korea would rather be ? Struggling here or there?

Yep, some people get unlucky.

Like those people who have had eight kids and done everything they can to try and support them and theirs, but luck has turned against them.

And hopefully luck will turn against you, so you get to realise just how big a moron you are and wise up.

Just how far you are from a sane, fully developed human being is displayed right here.

[eFestivals]

I will leave you to argue with yourself. If you fancy having a reasonable debate let me know.

with 'reasonable' meaning that anyone who doesn't adhere to all you say - which includes you, because your life has no 100% guarantees either - can fuck off and die and it's OK with you.

You really are ridiculous.

I personally don't think having eight kids is a good thing either. But the fact is that some people do have eight kids. Unlike you I'm not happy to abandon those kids to poverty.

You keep throwing North Korea in and suggesting that's what I advocate, but it's you presenting the utopian dream where everyone should be as perfect as you like to believe you are yourself.

I'm simply referencing the reality of the world, the reality where people who have eight kids will no longer be able to support those kids.

So guess what will ultimately happen? Those kids will be taken into care and greater costs will be borne by the state than paying a level of benefit to keep them out of abject poverty.

Even the communist North Korean MP called Eric Pickles has said this policy of a £26k benefit cap will be more costly to the state than paying reasonable levels of benefit.

Fancy that, Eric Pickles is more grounded and left wing than you - the person who wishes to believe that his faith makes him a better person than others, and who believes that ticking a Labour box on a ballot sheet gives him socially progressive ideas.

[kaosmark2]

Maybe they should of took one of the £600pm ones I just showed you and stuck away the extra £200pm...

This is all about what's reasonable...

Is it reasonable for a family with two kids, where working, comfortable, covering their existence through hard work etc fall on hard times and get supported until they find a new job...

Is it reasonable for a family to have EIGHT children while living in one of the most expensive areas in the world, not have any thought about the affordability or fairness of such a thing and just expect the rest of the short fall if they lose their job etc.

I am having another kid and then no more... I feel my chances of supporting two children is reasonable and if it all goes to shit then the impact on the society I live in is reasonable...

Ok I get it... You would make working an optional thing... Its something you do if you can be arsed and if you don't want to then the state looks after you and gives you a lifestyle while others work to support you and your optional choice.

The welfare state was never intended as that and people don't want it to be that...

We need to make sure welfare covers peoples basic needs of housing, food and heating etc. Nothing more nothing less. I doubt this cap will effect many people outside of their basic needs. And the ones that do get affected will no doubt have access to other options such as moving etc. The government has talked about supporting this process.

[eFestivals]

Real people have eight kids. No hypothesising by you about them having been stupid having eight kids changes that fact.

Perhaps tomorrow your misses will come over all catholic and you'll have eight kids. It ain't in your control. Or perhaps with her next pregnancy she'll be carrying septuplets. It ain't in your control.

What you going to do, shoot her?

Having found yourself with eight kids and no job and needing state support, what you gonna do? Shoot your kids?

Or perhaps drop them off at your local council's childrens home?

Fact is, with eight kids you're going to need more than £26k to support them - otherwise shooting them or putting them in care becomes your only options.

Nothing of that is remotely socialist, communist, utopian, or anything else ... except real. Real circumstances for real people.

And your answer is....? "Fuck 'em. Let them die".

I'm sure you're very proud of your Christian values. Have you passed on that pearl of wisdom to the others in your church, and they've said what a lovely caring Christian you are?

[eFestivals]

Would possibly terminate.... (and no I am not getting drawn into a debate on the ethics of this)

I am not having eight kids... Fuck that...

the ethics don't come into it. It ain't your choice, it's the choice of your missus.

So it could be you. And that makes you scum by your own words.

But even recognising that you are the scum you detest doesn't feed those kids.

[kaosmark2]

I didn't assume anything... I said they should think about it...

[lost]

I actually think most southerners would let their kids starve before moving to hull

Edited February 23, 2012 by lost

[kaosmark2]

What is your point ?

[kaosmark2]

I actually think most southerners would let their kids starve before moving to hull

[eFestivals]

So there is some elaborate situation which sees me with kids...

Could I live and raise eight children in the UK with £26k (net)... Yup...

not in the area you live currently you couldn't, that much is beyond doubt. In somewhere like Hull - away from supportive grannies, perhaps.

So what is your point ?

Yeah it would be a shit existence...

hurrah!! It's starting to penetrate that it would be a bad enviroment in which to bring up kids, and would probably lead to those kids being the next generation of problem families.

Do what you want, live as you want and we will support you regardless ?

what most families on benefits want is a job via which they can support themselves, not hand outs.

We don't have an endless supply of money... We simply don't...

then why implement a policy that will cost more and not less?

Eric Pickles believes it'll cost more. And he believes that because it's his dept which will pick up the tab, so he's not guessing at that.

I don't know what you want... Other than getting angry at people looking at what's "reasonable"!

If you can get a 'reasonable' law passed which limits the numbers of children people can have, go ahead.

Until then it's reasonable for people to have the number of kids they choose to have.

Very amusingly, the policy you suggest has been implemented .... by one of those communist states you detest, China.

And that policy was condemned as unreasonable by every free democracy in the world. And also the faiths that you think are so great.

You are the North Korean, not me.

[kaosmark2]

We do not have an endless supply of money... Do you understand this ?

I have create eight mouths instead of just two... Who is creating a problem... Me or the government ?

I will swap this around and you tell me how we afford to do this... We currently have a HUGE overspend...

[eFestivals]

If I create eight mouths to feed instead of just two... Who is creating a problem... Me or the government ?

You're completely missing the point.

There *ARE* eight mouths, and they need feeding. That is the only thing that is of importance.

They can't be made to vanish to establish your utopian dream. They exist already, and they're in need.

You keep saying fuck em, let em starve. That's very liberal of you, very Christian. And all in pursuit of your utopian dream.

FFS.

I will swap this around and you tell me how we afford to do this... We currently have a HUGE overspend...

and this policy will INCREASE the over-spend, not reduce it.

The saving is £127M.

The costs of dealing with homelessness, kids in care, and the social problems created by poverty will massively outstrip the saving.

The communist Eric Pickles knows what you the raving fascist don't. There is no saving, there is only extra cost.

[kaosmark2]

I'd forgotten about "It's outrageous we have to put up with fortnightly bin collections" Pickles condemning this retarded policy as not making any savings. He'd certainly be for it if it meant he could get his empty caviar containers collected more often.

[kaosmark2]

Would I like a fluffy world where work is optional and you cans still live a fucking great life... Yeah... but back to reality hey Neil...

Neil wants a communist society... But not like all the other ones we have seen... A special fluffy one...

koamark2 likes to dream...

And I am trying to hold a conversation with some sort touch with the realities of the current world we live in... With its unfairness and harshness and a place where people do lose...

[eFestivals]

Would I like a fluffy world where work is optional and you can still live a fucking great life... Yeah... but back to reality hey Neil...

Neil wants a communist society... But not like all the other ones we have seen... A special fluffy one...

koamark2 likes to dream...

And I am trying to hold a conversation with some sort touch with the realities of the current world we live in... With its unfairness and harshness and a place where people do lose...

oh do fuck off.

It's you who is advocating the communist utopian dream of forced low child limits, and ignoring the reality of real families with eight kids who will be affected by this cap.

Those families can't make their kids disappear.

But they can put them into care because they can't afford to support them. Greece currently has that problem - and guess what? Just as Pickles says will happen in the UK, it's costing Greece more than they're saving.

Work is always optional for some when there's not enough jobs to go round. Presumably you think the no-choice-but-to-be-unemployed should simply vanish like the families with eight kids.

Moron. Work with the reality, not the fantasy of you being more righteous than everyone else.

[eFestivals]

How many children died of starvation in this country which wasn't a direct result of child abuse?

None (in the last 50 years). Yet.

Who knows what will happen after this cap? The answer is Eric Pickles, who knows that this cap will not be a money saver.

It is not a policy to cut the deficit, it's dogma to keep small minded morons like you happy.

[kaosmark2]

How many children died of starvation in this country which wasn't a direct result of child abuse?

[kaosmark2]

So now we are down to the cut benefits and hurt people...

Or don't cut benefits and hurt people when the country goes the way of Greece...

At least one keeps us lords of are own future...

*Its a given we won't be getting more taxes from the rich

[fred quimby]

In his case, there is - that thing called the Christian religion that you think is so great. He clearly adhere's to his faith. Are you now going to condemn him for that, after all you so recently spouted?

[eFestivals]

So now we are down to the cut benefits and hurt people...

Or don't cut benefits and hurt people when the country goes the way of Greece...

At least one keeps us lords of are own future...

*Its a given we won't be getting more taxes from the rich

What part of this benefit cap is a cost and not a money saver can't you grasp?

What will send us the way of Greece is Gideon's austerity, and w*nkers like you who believe that you have the right to it all and everyone else can go fuck themselves.

Keynes is continually being proven as right. Even the USA has grasped that Kenyes is right, which is why they have growth.

[eFestivals]

I'm not sure having loads of kids adheres to any faith. (not judging just saying like)

in the case of my cousin, it's certainly the result of him adhering to the teachings of the faith he and his wife follow.

And unlike Barry the moron, he has real Christian principles. I detest the organised faith he follows, but have nothing but admiration for the way he lives his life and the values he not only speaks buts acts on. His faith and actions because of his faith put a whole new look for me on how religion can be done. If every Christian were like him I'd never have a bad word to say about Christianity.

[kaosmark2]

I actually take a middle road view...

We cut back some of the spending, try raise more tax until the point we get out of this shit...

Chances are though we won't... Europe is fucked... That is the reality... The new power houses are China, India etc... We are going to have to learn to live while expecting less... If you want something you need to go out there and get it...

[eFestivals]

We are going to have to learn to live while expecting less...

something I was saying years ago, and you called me all sorts of wrong.

But nothing about that can make 8 kids disappear or magic food and shelter out of the air for them. They still have to be supported, so it's the likes of you who will have to take the hit.

But you say no, let 'em starve. Very Christian of you.

[kaosmark2]

I worked and paid for them... You didn't give me the money for them...