An adult conversation about drugs?!

[5co77ie]

possibly an adult TV show about drugs:

http://louderthanwar.com/channel-4-to-screen-mdma-experiment/

[Spartacus Mars]

I don't see any reason to soften the drugs laws... Quite happy for it to remain tight... Increase the punishment if anything...

[Rufus Gwertigan]

possibly an adult TV show about drugs:

http://louderthanwar.com/channel-4-to-screen-mdma-experiment/

[Spartacus Mars]

Obviously people wouldn't suddenly immediately take it up, but the message that 'drugs are bad' wouldn't be taught to the same extent, which would lead to a long term increase in usage. You can compare drug-frequency in the Netherlands to over here and it isn't in favour of legalisation.

I agree the punishments are usually disproportionate, but I'm not sure legalisation is the way to go.

[eFestivals]

Have you ever lived in the Netherlands? I have.

People in Britain would give their right arms AND the Falklands to have a society of such academically able, intelligent, children. Decriminalisation of weed and the very wide availability of cocaine and ecstasy hasn't in the least harmed their society.

I've not lived in the Netherlands, but had family living in A'dam for a few years and used to visit them about monthly (this was about 15 years ago).

From what they said at that time, the average Dutch person wouldn't agree with your take on things. According to them, there's a difference between the tolerance they have and what they think of what they tolerate that many people fail to recognise.

You go out in any major non-Amsterdam city (or any of the suburbs of Amsterdam). You don't get the horrific post-pub post-club booze & blade stabby & punchy culture you do in Britain.

that's not anything to do with Dutch drug laws tho, as it's much the same all over western mainland Europe.

[Spindles]

Interesting read folks, thanks

Some...extreme...viewpoints posted at times, but I'll brush over those and mention that I agree with much of what has been posted about the legality and harm issues.

I saw a news report once with an interview with a lad who, on graduating from uni had picked up some ecstasy for him and his mates, got nicked at the point of buying and was sent down for possession with intent to supply because he told the police he was buying for him and his friends. He went from being a recently graduated student to someone who spent years with criminals as being the only people he met or knew.

I was brought up to believe drugs were bad. I saw a few friends go downhill with speed and cocaine use getting out of control and never touched them myself. I've smoked a little marijuana and taken ecstasy on 3 or 4 occasions over 20 years, any one of those incidents could have seen me lose my liberty.

As mr Rufus says, this is an emotive subject. I believe that each and every drug affects each and every person differently, some people are prone to addiction, some are not, some are prone to having mental health problems exacerbated, some are not. I believe that sensible debate and investigation by professionals, not politicians or commentators like ourselves is where the answer lies.

The Timeout article about Portugal is interesting, it is very much what is promoted in Ben Elton's novel, High Times.

Every debate about drugs always makes me think of Francis Begby: "You'd not get me putting that shite into my body" <swig> <puff>

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Is it valid to compare the UK to other countries. I dont think that if we decriminalised some drugs we will see a change in our society, the naive idea of 24 hour drinking seems to prove that. The only benefit we will see is a shift in the resources of the judicial system. I have a feeling that once minimum pricing for alcohol has been installed that the debate over drugs may begin. I am very surprised that no think tank has raised the issue of legalisation on fiscal grounds.

[eFestivals]

I am very surprised that no think tank has raised the issue of legalisation on fiscal grounds.

it's cos drugs is just too taboo a subject. While there's now a HoC's that's full of MPs who have personally experienced drug culture - including the two best known residents of downing street - so there's a decent chance they might have a sensible personal viewpoint, any attempt to say what they might think about liberalising the laws around drugs would be political suicide. The Daily Hate Mail would have a field day.

I think we're still a good few decades away from a time when things will have changed enough for an adult conversation from govt.

[Spartacus Mars]

that's not anything to do with Dutch drug laws tho, as it's much the same all over western mainland Europe.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

it's cos drugs is just too taboo a subject. While there's now a HoC's that's full of MPs who have personally experienced drug culture - including the two best known residents of downing street - so there's a decent chance they might have a sensible personal viewpoint, any attempt to say what they might think about liberalising the laws around drugs would be political suicide. The Daily Hate Mail would have a field day.

I think we're still a good few decades away from a time when things will have changed enough for an adult conversation from govt.

[eFestivals]

I could not give I timeframe to a discussion. I do know that many of the reasons for criminalising some drugs are been eroded. There is a real body of evidence showing that the Gateway Drug Theory really is bollocks.

many of the reasons given for criminalising them in the first place were bollocks, but that it didn't stop them getting criminalised in the first place.

So I really don't hold out much hope. Perhaps it's the hold that breweries have on govt .... given how firmly the Guinness family have been wedged in Parliament for 100 years or more that's far from impossible.

[kaosmark2]

Have you ever lived in the Netherlands? I have.

People in Britain would give their right arms AND the Falklands to have a society of such academically able, intelligent, children. Decriminalisation of weed and the very wide availability of cocaine and ecstasy hasn't in the least harmed their society.

You go out in any major non-Amsterdam city (or any of the suburbs of Amsterdam). You don't get the horrific post-pub post-club booze & blade stabby & punchy culture you do in Britain.

[Spindles]

Perhaps it's the hold that breweries have on govt .... given how firmly the Guinness family have been wedged in Parliament for 100 years or more that's far from impossible.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Academically able, intelligent children isn't a product of drug laws, it's a product of a decent education system.

As Neil said, it's a thing across Europe of not having the same late night heavy-boozing+violence culture as you do over here.

I'm not completely opposed to legalisation, I think there's many potential benefits, it's just that full decriminalisation can lead to increased use, which would be a negative consequence.

[kaosmark2]

How can you say that and what evidence is there to say that is the case? Why would increased use have a negative consequence and would that consequence be?

If there was decriminalisation I don't see the flood gates opening and vast swathes of people on the streets muntered. The youth of today is relatively switched on about these things. There is evidence coming through that less teens are regularly drinking alcohol at an early age. There appears to be a less number of new young people reporting heroin useage, or addiction, every year.

However I do have real concerns over the safety of some drugs, but mainly in the quality and control. Outside of that I think all the information is out there for people to make an informed choice. Yes, I am concerned about the link of cannabis as a trigger for some mental illnesses, but no more the same as for alcohol. Yes, I am concerned about the apparent addictive qualites of some innocuous drugs, but no more than I have for alcohol or tobacco.

[jammy2211]

I just wish I had been educated about drugs in a well rounded, sensible and mature way that explained both the benefits and risks of drugs, without any implicit bias. Instead I was told drugs are bad, will ruin my life, kill me or get me sent to prison. Non of those things have happened yet to me, nor any of my friends. I know I've a bias as I think anyone in any drug debate does, but when I try to look at the argument from a scientific viewpoint (which is that of my career) I still can't come to a logical, well-rounded reason as to why Alcohol and Tobacco are legal and many Class C, B and A drugs are not.

The common arguments always involve either the deaths of people, the long-term health risks or risks of addiction - but all of those things apply to alcohol and tobacco if not stronger in most cases. People seem happy to want drugs to be illegal without ever questioning the actual reason why they think that and while I'm more then happy for people to host that opinion, I've never really heard a rationale justification for the current drug laws.

The other thing that blows my mind is that despite drugs being illegal, and the supposed taboo about how bad they are, the reality is millions of people in the UK take whatever drug they want as often as they choose and the chances of them being caught are so so minuscule. It seems even more an unfair system when in reality someone can go to jail for possessing a class A drug, but the millions of other people who do it every year won't ever get caught, cause in reality we don't care enough to catch them. The vast majority of people my age consider drugs to be legal - just like downloading music or speeding 2 mph above the speed limit - you've never gonna get caught and the vast majority of people who do get an 'official warning' rather then any real punishment.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

"could" rather than "can" then.

The Dutch take more drugs than us.

Drug use (inc. alcohol, tobacco and caffeine) comes with negative consequences. Whether they outweigh the positives is a different matter.

Me neither. I'm undecided as to whether legalisation would be a good or bad thing.

One of the big advantages of legalisation would be better control over the contents. Lots of the problems associated with illegal drugs are actually the chemicals mixed in with them, not the effects of the drugs themselves.

[Spartacus Mars]

I'm not completely opposed to legalisation, I think there's many potential benefits, it's just that full decriminalisation can lead to increased use, which would be a negative consequence.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Not if it reduced alcohol consumption it wouldn't.

Also, drugs are pretty widely available as-is. There might be some additional uptake of weaker drugs from better availability and quality, but there should also be a corresponding reduction in uptake of very addictive drugs.

Sounds counter-intuitive? Not if you know the scum-end of dealer culture.

As heroin is more profitable than less addictive more mind-expanding drugs (MDMA, etc.) a scum dealer can pretend to be out of MDMA in order to sell, or initially give, heroin or methadone out. Coffeeshops, for all their perceived ills, do not operate on that basis.

[eFestivals]

The Dutch take more drugs than us.

I don't think that's anywhere near true.

As far as I can remember from published stats, the UK has the highest 'illicit'* drug use in Europe, and other countries come higher than the Dutch too.

(* 'illicit' includes what isn't illicit in Holland).

One of the big advantages of legalisation would be better control over the contents. Lots of the problems associated with illegal drugs are actually the chemicals mixed in with them, not the effects of the drugs themselves.

Yup.

A fair amount of the risks of psychosis from cannabis can be removed via similar means, because a regulated environment would be likely to include labelling about strength. Just as kids rarely start off drinking whisky, they'd rarely start smoking dope with the stronger stuff.

[5co77ie]

Academically able, intelligent children isn't a product of drug laws, it's a product of a decent education system.

.... late night heavy-boozing+violence culture as you do over here.

..... it's just that full decriminalisation can lead to increased use, which would be a negative consequence.

Edited September 21, 2012 by 5co77ie

[lost]

apparently Denver in the states now has more medical Marijurana outlets than Starbucks or liquor stores

[worm]

A fair amount of the risks of psychosis from cannabis can be removed via similar means

[worm]

I was given a well funded piece of research to do by the government on the link between drug use and crime. I found that the link was tenious and in most cases non-existent. They gave it back to me and told me to fabricate the results so that there was a link as it was to be published. I left the company that assigned me the work on ethical grounds.

Until the political machinations that reinforce this kind of deceit are removed I reckon any adult conversation regarding drugs will be confined to sites such as this.

[eFestivals]

I was given a well funded piece of research to do by the government .... They gave it back to me and told me to fabricate the results so that there was a link as it was to be published. I left the company that assigned me the work on ethical grounds.

Hmmmm. Itchy chin here.

"the govt"? Which part exactly?