"Secularism is a religion...Atheism is a religion"

[eFestivals]

Does someone's faith start with the bible or is the bible just part of that journey ?

without taking belief from the bible you choose to dismiss parts of, there is no journey to start.

[fred quimby]

without taking belief from the bible you choose to dismiss parts of, there is no journey to start.

[feral chile]

What rubbish

[eFestivals]

What rubbish

Really?

Then please do tell me what leads people in the modern world to have a belief in god aside from the existence of an existing belief in god by other people?

While there were god beliefs that pre-date Christianity and the like, there's certainly no cultural-leading of people towards them because our culture labels them as wacky. And so modern culture should do, because those wacky ideas existed only to explain the unexplainable.

So there is only the ongoing beliefs, which all stem (for Christianity) from that bible that people choose to believe parts of while dismissing the others - which of course means they have no greater rationale for the parts they choose to believe as there is for the parts they choose to not believe.

The god idea is one of suggestion, nowt more - but a suggestion whose source is dismissed by believers no less than it's accepted (aside from with fundamentalists).

[fred quimby]

Really?

[eFestivals]

Well faith in "god" didn't come from the bible... So it kind of rubbishes what you are saying Neil...

In all modern senses it has.

Your belief in god has its origin in the people you've met who take their belief in god from the bible (no different to how mine did when I had god belief). There is only suggestion, a suggestion which for 'white British' people comes directly from the bible over countless generations - at first all taken without question, with the questioning of it increasing over the time that other discoveries and facts have proven parts to be false.

The idea of there being a god has been suggested to you by society since your birth, and it's massively the probability that you unquestionably accepted it as true no differently as you did other things which were said to you as a child.

Those people who properly question what has been suggested to them reject it on the exact same basis as they accept or reject other ideas - those with a reasonable basis in facts tend to get (re-)accepted while those without any reasonable basis in facts get rejected.

There is of course no basis in facts for any god idea.

We used to believe that a monarch was god's representative on earth, because that's what people told us. Then we wised up.

We used to believe that there was nothing wrong with slavery, because that's what people told us. Then we wised up.

We used to believe that to be gay was wrong because that's what people told us. Then we wised up.

Etc, etc, etc.

Those with a god belief have yet to wise up.

[Kyelo]

Well faith in "god" didn't come from the bible... So it kind of rubbishes what you are saying Neil...

[feral chile]

And the Bible is held up as an authority, both as evidence for God's existence and as a teaching guide. It's the Book of truth, isn't it?

So if it counts as evidence for God's existence, then you can't just discount bits of it that are contradictory or inconvenient.

[eFestivals]

So if it counts as evidence for God's existence, then you can't just discount bits of it that are contradictory or inconvenient.

and if it's not the evidence for god's existence, what is there to plant the idea of god in someone's mind?

For the likes of Oaf that is very definitely the suggestion of a god from someone who does take the 'evidence' of the bible as the evidence of god's existence.

[Kizzie]

And the Bible is held up as an authority, both as evidence for God's existence and as a teaching guide. It's the Book of truth, isn't it?

So if it counts as evidence for God's existence, then you can't just discount bits of it that are contradictory or inconvenient.

[fred quimby]

So does all non belief start with the various religous texts, not just the bible?

[eFestivals]

So does all non belief start with the various religous texts, not just the bible?

I can't speak for others, but my own non-belief is from facts.

I could believe that I had a Ferrari parked outside my house. When I go outside there is no Ferrari, and so I don't believe that there is one.

I could believe that I had a campervan parked outside my house. When I go outside there is a campervan, and so I believe that there is one.

This is what we all do for everything .... except for those people with a belief in god, who hold that belief despite the complete absence of any facts to back up their belief. There is only the suggestion that was put into their mind as an infant that there is a god - and that suggestion also often comes with a "and this is to never be questioned" subtitle.

Even if a believer does question it, they never throw off the suggestion that's been made to them an an infant.

That god belief is irrational on all the normal basis that a person uses to go thru their life. It only stands up to any rational scrutiny by applying a completely different rationale to the idea than would be applied for anything else.

Unless .... the god believers want to accept that the Spaghetti Monster is as valid a god as their own god - which they never do, and so prove their own irrationality.

[eFestivals]

Who said its evidence for God's existence ? I don't think its really "evidence" of his existence...

So the question needs to be asked: what is it that led you to conclude that there is a god?

And the answer is: the suggestion of others that there is a god. Which is as weak as it gets, and something you wouldn't accept as a basis for any other belief you might have.

There is nothing else that causes you to have that belief.

[Kyelo]

I look at it like this. Deism and Pantheism are very hard to argue against from a scripture point of view but Abrahamic religions can be. They have many mistakes, contradictions and in some cases completely made up lies. If one piece of it can be shown to be wrong the entire thing can be, if there are doubts over its authenticity then the basis for the entire religion is in doubt ergo the beliefs/gods.

[fred quimby]

I can't speak for others, but my own non-belief is from facts.

I could believe that I had a Ferrari parked outside my house. When I go outside there is no Ferrari, and so I don't believe that there is one.

I could believe that I had a campervan parked outside my house. When I go outside there is a campervan, and so I believe that there is one.

This is what we all do for everything .... except for those people with a belief in god, who hold that belief despite the complete absence of any facts to back up their belief. There is only the suggestion that was put into their mind as an infant that there is a god - and that suggestion also often comes with a "and this is to never be questioned" subtitle.

Even if a believer does question it, they never throw off the suggestion that's been made to them an an infant.

That god belief is irrational on all the normal basis that a person uses to go thru their life. It only stands up to any rational scrutiny by applying a completely different rationale to the idea than would be applied for anything else.

Unless .... the god believers want to accept that the Spaghetti Monster is as valid a god as their own god - which they never do, and so prove their own irrationality.

[eFestivals]

I asked, as earlier people people were saying that belief always started with the bible so just wondering if the same was true of in reverse, although you have to take in all texts. more a random late night question really

I'd say for 99.99% of non-believers their non-belief starts with from religious text.

A child starts with an empty screen. The idea of a god is very very likely to be planted in there at some point (it's an idea that's almost impossible to avoid in almost all places on earth). So for a person to arrive at the idea of no-god they have to consider the idea of a god to then reject it.

After all, if the idea of a god has never occurred to you, it's not too likely that (as a child) you'd make up the idea from nothing of there being no god.

We don't consider what there isn't, we only ever consider what there is or might be; to arrive at any idea of something that isn't we work from an idea of what is or might be to arrive at that nothing.

[The Nal]

I look at it like this. Deism and Pantheism are very hard to argue against from a scripture point of view but Abrahamic religions can be. They have many mistakes, contradictions and in some cases completely made up lies. If one piece of it can be shown to be wrong the entire thing can be, if there are doubts over its authenticity then the basis for the entire religion is in doubt ergo the beliefs/gods.

Edited February 28, 2012 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Explaining what causes you to have "faith" is the hardiest thing in the world...

Your easy answer is I have been brained washed by others while the reality, or least my understand of the reality, is far more complex...

Its more a feeling deep down... I couldn't accurately explain it... Mock away if you wish... Its not going to change much...

Oh, I get that "feeling deep down", I've experienced it myself.

But I've concluded it's simply a self-generated answer for the unexplained, to cause us not to fear the things that are beyond our comprehension - after all, there's the facts to back that up. For example...

Before we understood how the sun "rises" (a word we still cling on to for it, despite knowing it's wrong ) in the sky, there was the idea of 'someone' pushing it up into the sky. That 'someone' was a god in 'pagan' beliefs, and became the Christian god in (what became) Christian beliefs.

Eventually, with better information available to us, the idea of a 'god' pushing it into the sky died out.... but the Abrahamic myth then changed things so that 'god' became responsible for the mechanisms that puts it into the sky rather than doing it himself.

And that above is, in a nutshell, the whole history of religious beliefs. Weird ideas with a basis of nothing are replaced by solid facts, which causes the religion to change its message to fit the new facts, and everyone pretends that it always approached things in that new way. It's actually quite laughable that people continue to go along with it.

What was it that research that the Mail wrote about said? That people with low childhood intelligence have irrational fears that lead them to be socially conservative. Here's betting that the same correlation can be found with religious beliefs - after all, they're simply the demonstration of a fear caused by irrational thought.

What is beyond doubt is that the idea of a god was suggested to you before you thought of it yourself.

Edited February 28, 2012 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

Explaining what causes you to have "faith" is the hardiest thing in the world...

Your easy answer is I have been brained washed by others while the reality, or least my understand of the reality, is far more complex...

Its more a feeling deep down... I couldn't accurately explain it... Mock away if you wish... Its not going to change much...

[feral chile]

_{or to put it another way:}

_{Imagine you live in a society that doesn't have religion, and everyone except you only believes in the physical world. You become convinced that there's a supreme being, who's invisible, who created the Universe, who's omnipotent and omniscient, and benevolent.}

_{You're positive this being exists, but when you tell anyone, they ask you to prove it. They run tests on you, and can't find anything wrong with your perception or your brain, at least physically.}

_{Nobody accepts your story, because there's no external evidence for it, just a feeling you have.}

_{without social acceptance of your belief, you'd likely rationalise it as a delusion, and even if you were convinced, your society would probably label you as psychotic and try to treat you.}

_{at the moment, your belief is supported by the beliefs of others who believe the same, and a social protection that isn't accorded to similar beliefs. And by a book that shows that your beliefs have been around for thousands of years.}

_{But take that away, and how could you tell that what you believe is the truth and not an illusion?}

Edited February 28, 2012 by feral chile

[sifi]

I visited Nazareth a few months back. And Galilee. I felt nothing.

[eFestivals]

I visited Nazareth a few months back. And Galilee. I felt nothing.

i saw Nazareth on top of the pops once. I quite liked them.

[eFestivals]

I love science... I don't see it as this science vs religion others do... I am way more open minded...

believing delusion as real isn't open minded, that's unhinged-minded.

[eFestivals]

The thing about low intelligence is funny.

Considering you suggested that its mostly well off middle class people who are going church and doing well for themselves. I wonder what sort of level of intelligence that places on you

I ain't well off, I ain't middle class, I don't go to church and I ain't doing well for myself.

Sounds like I'm very very safe.

[Kyelo]

One can never totally rule anything out untill it's 100% provable one way or another...