"Secularism is a religion...Atheism is a religion"

[abdoujaparov]

I will take a partial lesson on the bath party but only a partial one as thy where elected and then loss and then the coup happened...

Regarding Germany, they came to power via democracy so no lesson there... They had huge support...

[Ed209]

I am in Manchester and for the area that I live the opposite could be said. In fact when I was a Govenor at the kids school we found it extremely difficul to get any "ethnic" groups involved. For a school that had only a population of less than 20% white kids that was a concern. The area has now got one asian councillor out of 6 and that was only after very aggressive canvassing. I think he is a muslim but it was mates mentioned. I think because of the religious mix in this area it may be best to keep your gob shut.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Ed209

[abdoujaparov]

I am clearly not great on the bath politics so will leave that one.

But on Germany you are talking partial facts..

Nazis and the KPD took well over half the votes, nazis acoustics for around 40%... Higher than any Uk goverment usally gets...

Anyone arguing the nazis rise to power wasn't democratic is talking bollocks..

[eFestivals]

so who are the electrorate who vote for this 'democratic principle' of allowing religious practices?

We're talking councils. And in some councils, I'd guess that non-Christian religions are the majority amongst the councillors (but not necessarily the electorate).

So would all these Christians who are outraged by this decision be happy to see (say) Muslim prayers before council business, on the same 'democratic principle' you're saying is right? Or would they start screaming about the immient introduction of Sharia law and how Muslim prayer is an outrage in the governance of 'a Christian country'?

Less than 7% of this country practice religion - and a large chunk of that 7% are not Christian.

We are not a Chrtistian country. Therefore any council should recognise that and not implement religious practices as any part of governance. Anything else would be anti-democratic.

[5co77ie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17021831

this is so confusing...

Baroness Warsi warning "Britain is under threat from a rising tide of "militant secularisation"", while also saying "people need to feel stronger in their religious identities and more confident in their creeds"....

[eFestivals]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17021831

this is so confusing...

Baroness Warsi warning "Britain is under threat from a rising tide of "militant secularisation"", while also saying "people need to feel stronger in their religious identities and more confident in their creeds"....

What's so confusing? She's a total poodle coconut, who'll say anything for Dave Moron. After all, she was dragged from obscurity as a not very good solicitor for just that purpose.

[eFestivals]

In all seriousness, what is confusing these nutty Christians so much?

A freedom to practice religion absolutely requires an equal and opposite right to be free of any religion - because no one is free to practice their own religion if they're required to suffer an opposite religion against their will and against their own religious scriptures.

Still, this is a hiding to nothing for the tories. While backing the Christians might make their core blue-rinse bridage happy, it'snot going to endear the 95% of the population who have no interest in practicing Christianity to them.

[eFestivals]

She is a Muslim you idiot...

Doh, I'd never noticed.

Yes, she's a Muslim, but she's being a poodle for Dave Moron in pushing his politically-out-of-touch Christian agenda.

As the saying used to go, the Church of England is the tory party at prayer. The saying might have died out a little but the point remains.

[eFestivals]

The girl stands up as a Muslim talking about wider religion and you break it down to her arguing in favour of just Christianity... You aren't very bright...

If you take off the blinkers you will find it isn't just Christians raising the issues being raise here. Other faith groups are saying similar things. Its almost a weekly debate point on that Sunday morning show done by Nicky Campbell with the points being made by other faith groups....

But no, you just bang on about Christians... Whatever makes you feel comfortable...

Everything I've read of what Warsi is going to say at the Vatican is to do with promoting Christianity and just Christianity - with phrases such as Europe needing to be "more confident and more comfortable in its Christianity".

There's been uproar about the "ban" (which isn't a ban) of Christian prayers within councils.

Do you really think there'd be no comment from all of the same complaining pretend-Christians if a council were forcing all its members to attend Muslim prayers in the same way those pretend-Christians think that Christian prayers should be forced on people?

There'd be even more uproar if that were to happen that there's been about this "ban" (which isn't a ban).

[eFestivals]

PS:....

If it's about supporting wider personal belief systems then those complining pretend-Christians should have no problem with this "ban" (which isn't a ban). After all, atheism is no less of a personal belief system than Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, Janism, Taoism, etc, etc, etc.

[eFestivals]

How many people are speaking out about this ban ?

People use the term "Christian" as to me every one of them... As if they are one group all thinking the same...

It wasn't a topic at my local church on Sunday put it that way... The only person I talked to about it thought it was a storm in a tea cup... I agreed...

The Bishop of Exeter (whose diocese includes Bideford) has basically said that councils should break the law.

An ex-ArchBish of Canterbury (I forget which one) has condemned the "ban" (which isn't a ban, but he's too stupid to realise).

Eric Pickles has said he plkans to introduce emergency legislation to reverse the "ban" (which isn't a ban, but he's too stupid to realise).

Etc, etc, etc.

PS: I see you're back to church-going, you non-Christian hypocryte.

[eFestivals]

Been pointing out for a long time that Christian thinking on homsexuals had come an long way. A lot here said I was talking rubbish. Acting like every Christian thinks the same and is a gay hating w*nker. The facts rarely meet the attacks.

the gay-hating w*nkers get the press about it tho. And that 61% gets to say that the other 39% would prefer the dicks of gays cut off.

It wouldn't be half as laughable if the Christian churches weren't the biggest gay clique going.

The simple fact is that less than 5% of this country are practising Christians (from research carried outr by a Christian group!). Why the fuck should the rest of us - 95% - have it forced on us by morons who are too stupid to even realise that this "ban" is not a ban at all?

Edited February 14, 2012 by eFestivals

[The Nal]

If people want a battle of ideas and religion loses and none religious feeling grows that is fine...

If people want to be hateful on either side then that's just not healthy... There is a lot of hate towards religious people. Its sick...

At the same time there is hate from religious people and like wise that is sick...

Cut the hate out...

It this "hate" element that is leading to calls of "attack" I feel...

Edited February 14, 2012 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Its hypocritical to attend a Church of England Church while at the same time declare I'm not a Christian

yes it is.

You've said you're not a Christian.

[The Nal]

Your more than welcome to your opinion but I think its actually are more complex and its more debated within religon than you probably think.

[eFestivals]

Your whole post gives some support to the idea that religions are under "attack"... Its the level aggression I think that religous people are feeling. To all your posts and other peoples here, you don't stick to the actual facts, and start basically, ranting...

The only "attack" is coming from the Christians onto people such as me me.

They believe - as the Bideford case got to prove - that they have an absolute right to make non-Christians (or even Christians that don't want to go along with them) have to suffer Christian worship against their will.

If they weren't doing that and wanting to continue doing that, then that court case would never have happened.

Any ranting I'm doing is ranting about their utter stupidity, their inability to understand the simple fact that a freedom to practice religion also requires a freedom to not have to practice a religion if you don't wish to.

To just state it suggests 39% want their dicks cut off is a just stupid, nasty and hateful.

It's an over-statement, said in jest.

The truth of the matter is that that 39% wish some people to not be allowed the consentual sex life of their chosing without having to risk imprisonment, eternal damnation in hell, or worse for their choice of consentual sex life.

I would of thought it meant people feeling unhappy about gay adoption for example. An issue many none religious people take issue with.

Make it up cointrary to the facts however you wish to. It wouldn't be the first time.

[eFestivals]

If people want a battle of ideas and religion loses and none religious feeling grows that is fine...

If people want to be hateful on either side then that's just not healthy... There is a lot of hate towards religious people. Its sick...

At the same time there is hate from religious people and like wise that is sick...

Cut the hate out...

It this "hate" element that is leading to calls of "attack" I feel...

Any hate from me is the result of the religious not wanting me to have the same rights of religious (or non-religious) expression as they wish to have themselves.

If people wish to be deluded by religion then that's their choice, I have no issue with it.

If people want to try to force me to have to suffer their religious beliefs - which they do do, as the fuss about the Bideford case gets to prove beyond all doubt - then they can go fuck themselves.

[eFestivals]

Best description of me is a person with faith... I go on Sunday to be with like minded people...

there is no person walking this earth who does not have a similar personal faith.

So there's no need for you to attend any church to be with "like minded people"unless it's to be with a specific type of like minded people.

[eFestivals]

You are talking about Christians as one thinking joined up body again...

You just don't get it... You don't want to get it...

You have your hate...

Oh do fuck off.

There is certainly "one thinking joined up body" who is able to weild significant political power behind their thinking - as the comments from Pickles last week gets to prove, and the coconut poodle Warsi gets to prove.

If that "one thinking joined up body" wish to put themselves into the background they are more than welcome to and they'll get little comment and not hate from me.

But they don't. They wish to force their beliefs and practices onto me. They can fuck right off.

[eFestivals]

As vague and as useless as ever... Why you bother posting is beyond me...

says the man unable to grasp that the issue here is not of Christianity being under attack, but those who won't go along with Christianity being under attack by organised Christians.

Edited February 14, 2012 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I can see both sides of it actually... Unlike you...

PMSL.

I can see both sides - which is why I'm able to recognise that religion by force (which is what those organised Christians are wanting) is not the freedom of religious expression that they claim as their motivation.

If we are to have freedom of religious expression then there can be no religion by force.

There IS no other side to this.

[strummer77]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17021831

(there's a hole in the bucket...)

[strummer77]

I suppose the end play is concentration camps... I would be careful with your hate...

Overreaction or a lesson from history ?

[Kyelo]

I hate the notion 'we are a Christian nation'. Em no, we were originally a pagan nation. The Christian religion itself is a mash of Judeo and Pagan beliefs. Saying 'we are a Christian nation' is a s stupid as saying 'we are a white nation'. It completely forgets the thousands of years of history we have, the many waves of immigration over that period(Irish, Roman, Viking, Saxons, Caribbean, Indian etc etc)and all the cultures/faiths/beliefs that they have taken with them. The only thing that can be pinned down on this nation is that we are VERY varied and secularism is the ONLY way for everybody to be treated equally and fairly.

[The Nal]

I'd call it Godwin's law myself.