"Secularism is a religion...Atheism is a religion"

[strummer77]

That's fine. The truth is though, whenever you go to church you have to say the Creed which is the declaration of faith where you state that you believe in one God who sent us JC who died for our sins by crucifixtion, only to rise again and asscend into heaven.

Now either you believe that, hence are a Christian. Or you stand up in church every sunday and lie.

[Ed209]

There is more to my regular attendance than that... And I don't lie...

[eFestivals]

these boards can seem very anti-christian, but that's their problem, not yours.

Not so much "anti". It's more the case, like UK society in general, that we will no longer tolerate the religious intolerance that organised religion wish subject us to.

As a clear demonstration of that, this thread only exists because of the religious intolerance of Christians, wishing to force others to be a part of Christian worship against their will and beliefs.

The power of organised Christianity has finally shrunk to the point where the non-Christians are able to successfully stand up against it. And not a moment too soon.

There was no group of atheists offering a support structure like that in my village.

Only if and when athiests were granted the powers and privileges that organised Christianity have had for over a millenia should you expect such a thing.

Oh, along with those athiests also wanting to get organised and exorcise that power over others.

So your whole point there is misplaced.

Yes, Christians do good work, and you saw it first hand. But also, out of your sight much more of the same support was going on in exactly the same way without any need of a religious basis for any of it, as it always has.

[kaosmark2]

Not so much "anti". It's more the case, like UK society in general, that we will no longer tolerate the religious intolerance that organised religion wish subject us to.

As a clear demonstration of that, this thread only exists because of the religious intolerance of Christians, wishing to force others to be a part of Christian worship against their will and beliefs.

The power of organised Christianity has finally shrunk to the point where the non-Christians are able to successfully stand up against it. And not a moment too soon.

Only if and when athiests were granted the powers and privileges that organised Christianity have had for over a millenia should you expect such a thing.

Oh, along with those athiests also wanting to get organised and exorcise that power over others.

So your whole point there is misplaced.

Yes, Christians do good work, and you saw it first hand. But also, out of your sight much more of the same support was going on in exactly the same way without any need of a religious basis for any of it, as it always has.

[Kyelo]

There was no group of atheists offering a support structure like that in my village.

[eFestivals]

I still don't think you should undermine the fact that some Christians have used that power and privilege as an opportunity to do good.

I don't.

I simply point out that they're not the only ones doing good, and the others that do good have a harder task because they don't have the same power and privileges (so there really should be an even greater amount of do-gooding from the Christians).

And don't forget that the state employed "do gooders" (social workers, teachers, etc, etc) - which are in many ways no different to a salaried vicar - are generally ridiculed from all angles, including from the Christians. And yet they certainly achieve no less.

that doesn't mean we should react to intolerance with similar intolerance.

Wanting and expecting equality is not intolerence.

Demanding privileges at the expense of others freedom very definitely is.

[kaosmark2]

I don't.

I simply point out that they're not the only ones doing good, and the others that do good have a harder task because they don't have the same power and privileges (so there really should be an even greater amount of do-gooding from the Christians).

And don't forget that the state employed "do gooders" (social workers, teachers, etc, etc) - which are in many ways no different to a salaried vicar - are generally ridiculed from all angles, including from the Christians. And yet they certainly achieve no less.

Wanting and expecting equality is not intolerence.

Demanding privileges at the expense of others freedom very definitely is.

[strummer77]

Not really... but its easier to think in terms of black and white rather than grey...

Edited February 16, 2012 by strummer77

[strummer77]

whole chunks of our education system are dictated by christianity. Parents will pretend to go to church to get their kids in to the 'better' schools....

it's endemic... it might be better than it used to be, and it's not as bad as it is in America, but just the fact that America is how it is, teaching creationism over evolution in many places, is enough indication that there's still a long way to go in having a genuinely 'fairer' (not sure if that's the most appropriate word..?) society

[Ed209]

you just go for the free wine dont you

[strummer77]

You miss out the choice I exercise of saying only what I believe....

Edited February 16, 2012 by strummer77

[kaosmark2]

Not sure fairer is right either. Education should just be correct, not fair. Creationism being taught as a truth is just backward.

[strummer77]

The story of creation is just plain wrong... I don't see how anyone can believe it...

[Ed209]

the church schools pretty much require that you go to church...

and so the circle keeps on turning

Edited February 16, 2012 by Ed209

[Kyelo]

If faith schools are the better schools shouldn't we look at why and replicate it in the main stream schools...

[strummer77]

Faith schools tend to be in middle classed areas, not difficult to see why the grades are higher...

[abdoujaparov]

Are they funded better as well? Because if so that helps.

[strummer77]

Hang on they can't select on ability... Only on religious background...

Edited February 16, 2012 by strummer77

[kaosmark2]

Oh I agree on that. Faith schools in general are something I'm strongly against as well. I personally think we should all go through the same state education whatever our beliefs or wealth.

[eFestivals]

Sorry but that is just not true...

it's 100% true in north east hampshire - which is the highest income area in the country by residence (the jobs that people who live there work in are generally in London).

[abdoujaparov]

Hang on they can't select on ability... Only on religious background...

[eFestivals]

So its true that there is a faith school in the highest income area in the country.... Well done Neil... You just made no point

if you had half a brain you;'d be lethal.

In the richest area of the country, the faith schools are in the richest areas of that area.

Got it? It's very simple, and something to put against your claim that that isn't the case.

[eFestivals]

They can set there own admission criteria in accordance with a child's religious background. State schools aren't mean't to be selecting on ability. Can you show me some government legalisation that says they can do this. I would really like to see it.

faith schools are normally hugely over-subscribed.

So they've got to weed a lot of people out. Who do you think they weed out?

So they don't actually need any specific legislation to select on ability. They have to select - and they use ability to select.

Edited February 17, 2012 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

So how would they do this if they aren't allowed to select on ability ? If they are doing that they are clearly breaking the law...

and are you suggesting faith schools do this more than the other highly over-subscribed schools ?

Nope, I'm not suggesting that they do this more than other over-subscribed schools (they might do I suppose, but I've no idea if they do).

But the point is that all over-subscribed schools do this to some extent, and so their existing success ensures their future success - and is nothing to do with religion being a part of the schooling.

So (IF) they are doing this then they are no worse or better than other state funded schools...

No.

They ARE doing this. They are no worse or better than other **OVER-SUBSCRIBED** state funded schools...

The remaining schools are left with the hardest schooling task.

[eFestivals]

What are faith schools doing right that make them heavily over subscribed...

they have or had extra funding over and above the standard state school.

This extra funding created extra success.

That extra success becomes self sustaining because they become over-subscribed.

It's simply the case of joining up some very simple dots.

Considering parent in rich areas are choosing faith schools over the other state school only goes to show that the faith school is doing something extra... Because you would presume the other state school has the same level of fluffy middle class kids you all keep talking about...

PMSL.

If the better-off parents are (as a generanlisation) sending their kids to the better schools then it cannot be the case that other schools have the same proportion of better-off parents. The maths proves that they MUST have a lower proportion.

You're completely crap at following thru on any thought. I'm continually amazed how quickly your brain comes to a grinding halt.