Dispatches- The Great Ticket Scandal, C4 Thursday 9pm

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

why is someone who can afford it an idiot?

[jk1]

The Promoters should have got as much of a grilling as Seatwave and Viagogo there.

Ultimately, if the Promoters had enough about them to turn down the £££ offered then they wouldn't be able to sell those tickets in the first place. Viagogo and Seatwave are well out of line for saying they do not sell tickets though.

Sorry state of affairs, i suspect if the practice of Promoters selling to these sites stops then they'll just put the prices up themselves instead to make up the lost margins, as according to the staff filmed they make most of the markup charged anyway.

Can't win unless people stop paying stupid money for 90 minutes of music though.

[t8yman]

I wonder why ticketmaster didnt get a kicking? their secondary site is exactly the same IIRC, and more blatant as they link to it directly from the "sold out" page.

but yes, the promoters are the biggest evil in all of this, AND they get a 90/10 split of the profit if that guy was accurate.

[eFestivals]

I wonder if the likes of Coldplay etc last night thought....

I think Coldplay are the act that can create the pressure to get this sorted.

Everyone should tweet Coldplay and ask them what they're going to do about their promoter ripping off their fans.

I can't imagine that Chris Martin is a happy bunny about this.

[Smally]

Saw this on twitter,

If people are stupid enough to pay £600 to Viagogo to see Coldplay, then even Coldplay are probably laughing at your stupidity.

[t8yman]

I dont think Chris Martin gives a fuck to be honest. Trent Reznor has been innovating and making noises about this for a few years now. If the artists really cared, they wouldn't allow it. Didnt Springsteen boycott ticketmaster a few years ago or something similar?

[Paul ™]

The band nearly always know. There is no way Gary Barlow etc can not know their fans were stung for near on 3m quid. He's not that stupid.

[t8yman]

I wouldnt pay 6p to watch coldplay, but I still feel for the people that miss out, because I get that same feeling 6-10 times a year.

[eFestivals]

The band nearly always know. There is no way Gary Barlow etc can not know their fans were stung for near on 3m quid. He's not that stupid.

i think you're wrong. I think the promoters have been walking away with the profits - and probably tax free too, all done off the books.

[Smally]

ViagogoTicketTouts followed you

Haaa, must have been with all my comments towards the CEO of Seatwave.

EDIT: Just seen what the profile is hahaha, whoops.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Smally

[Paul ™]

Well the easy way is to ask the artists to confirm or deny if they knew about the managed secondary ticketing on their shows.

Get tweeting folks.

[eFestivals]

Well the easy way is to ask the artists to confirm or deny if they knew about the managed secondary ticketing on their shows.

Get tweeting folks.

Yep, exactly. Let's see who is part of the scam and who isn't.

The most ridiculous part of the show I thought was the Concert Promoters Association claiming that they do this to undermine the other touts. If that was the case they could stick face value tickets on Viagogo and take away all of the potential profit for touts.

[Paul ™]

Yep, exactly. Let's see who is part of the scam and who isn't.

The most ridiculous part of the show I thought was the Concert Promoters Association claiming that they do this to undermine the other touts. If that was the case they could stick face value tickets on Viagogo and take away all of the potential profit for touts.

[MrZigster]

I dont think Chris Martin gives a fuck to be honest. Trent Reznor has been innovating and making noises about this for a few years now. If the artists really cared, they wouldn't allow it. Didnt Springsteen boycott ticketmaster a few years ago or something similar?

Edited February 24, 2012 by MrZigster

[eFestivals]

On the CPA thing, I was sent this last night and seems rules 1, 3, 4 certainly ain't been stuck to.

About Us - Code of Conduct

Statement of intent

This Code of Conduct exists to provide a framework of governing values for the members of the Concert Promoters Association, and to further public confidence, and the confidence of performing artists and other acts, in concert promoters.

Principles of conduct

• Members shall promote and maintain ethical standards of conduct and at all times deal fairly and honestly with the public, with business people and with the artists and acts they are promoting.

• Members shall recognise that the safety of the public and performers is their greatest responsibility, and shall ensure that the highest possible standards of safety are observed in the staging and managing of concerts.

• Members shall at all times act in a professional manner and shall not engage in practices which would bring the concert promotion industry into disrepute.

• Members shall recognise the right of the public to accurate information about the concerts they are promoting and shall strive to ensure that all relevant information, especially in relation to changes in an advertised programme, is made available to ticket holders and members of the public as soon as possible.

• Members shall use their reasonable endeavours to ensure that all concerts they promote conform with all relevant laws, bye-laws and regulations relating to their concerts.

• Members shall use their reasonable endeavours to ensure that at concerts they are promoting racial or sexual harassment or abuse, and other threatening behaviour, whether from members of the public or their own staff, is not tolerated and is dealt with swiftly and appropriately.

• Members shall use their reasonable endeavours to ensure that all the normal services such as food, hygiene and toilet facilities are handled in a manner which complies with all laws and are appropriate for public use.

• Members shall ensure that they have adequate working capital and insurance for the concerts they promote, and shall recognise that the proper and prompt payment of artists is of central importance.

• Members shall at all times remember that integrity is the guiding principle of the Association which should inform all their work as concert promoters.

you've missed the last one. Making anti-tout statements whilst being the biggest touts operating is anything but integrity.

[Paul ™]

Good point, but what will be done about it? Nothing I suspect

[the_hedge]

Didn't Pearl Jam risk nearly everything by trying to do things without Clear Channel or some similar monster " we want to buy up the whole market" company?

[jump]

Yep, exactly. Let's see who is part of the scam and who isn't.

The most ridiculous part of the show I thought was the Concert Promoters Association claiming that they do this to undermine the other touts. If that was the case they could stick face value tickets on Viagogo and take away all of the potential profit for touts.

[t8yman]

I think the ticket market is skewed a little over the last few years, many of the more knowledgeable gig goers understand that bands expect more form ticket sales as a balance for the perceived losses in the recording sector. so many people dont mind paying a little more to the artist, it would appear that the agents and promoters have seen this as an indication that the fan is a mug, and they can profiteer to their hearts content.

its stinks, has done for years, and i seriously doubt there is any way out of it. big, high volume, high margin sales opportunities are too attractive to the big promoters.

the only real way this can be tackled is for bands to have their own ticket clubs, for a nominal fee per year, every member gets a selection of the best tickets for each relevant show in a presale, the remainder then go on sale to the general public. many of the bigger bands have this - NIN, Rammstein, Metallica, and it works quite well from what I can see. the band need to have a coherent policy.

[mikeb]

Well ... that was all way more than a bit Quelle Surprise wasn't it ! Just in case anyone didn't already know: A good old fashioned scumbag tout in a grubby raincoat is still the very same scumbag tout even when sitting in a nice office wearing a shiny new suit and running a swish looking website ... and they're still going to you senseless when given even the merest hint of an opportunity needless to say Unfortunately it would seem like there is no real shortage of peeps with apparently no real shortage of do$h to give them plenty of opportunities !

Interesting programme and good that it's been broadcast and all that but the whole problem is so ingrained in the event market now that I don't think there's a cat in hells chance of anything ever being done about it. Once the Select Committee ages back decided there was nothing official to be done and promoters/agents should 'deal' with the alleged problem of touting that was the end of the line IMHO. They were blatantly given a licence not only to print tickets but to inflate the price to whatever they could get for them into the bargain without any questions ever going to be asked. In short, the promoters/agencies response to 'dealing' with the problem of touting was simply to step in and become (a very large) part of the problem themselves. Whenever there's (potentially a lot of) do$h to be made then you can pretty much always bet your life on the fact that there's going to be no shortage of scumbags various lining up to try their luck.

Let's face it, it's so bl**dy easy now that almost everyone is a tout these days !! Sure, lots of the tix appearing as soon as events sell out are a direct result of insider or dodgy dealing, 'professional' scumbags and so on but equally there is no shortage of so-called genuine fans who just so happened to buy their tickets earlier in the day but then suddenly realised that they can't go any more as well In other words, large numbers of peeps are clearly buying a few extra tix whenever they can do knowing that in general they will be able to shift them at a profit therefore paying for their own night out. Too many peeps almost automatically buying the maximum number of tix knowing full well that they don't actually need them for themselves and/or their mates but just wanting to make a few squid by jumping on the conveniently passing bandwagon. How can there possibly be so many allegedly genuine spares available at an inflated price so soon after the on-sale date when the event itself is often up to a year or more in the future otherwise ?

Anyone remember back to the days when Glasto tix were widely available via a certain auction-style website as well as on a variety of other tout sites immediately the 'sold out' signs went up at the official ticket agents ? How many of those were in any way 'genuine' spares ? Answer: Not a single one of them. Why ? Simply because it was way too soon after the purchase date AND not to mention that tix could be returned for a full refund at any time over the next several months in the event that buyers genuinely couldn't use them, with returned tix being resold officially at face value to buyers who could use them. I would very much like to think that none of those tix available came from insider or dodgy dealing and I'd be fairly certain that few if any did. I am well aware that plenty came from some pretty well organised bunches of scumbag touts of course but a very significant number were just peeps who got lucky on the day and bought a few more than they actually needed so were out to make a fast buck.

OK, Glasto resolved the problem admirably in most respects but few if any other promoters, organisers or primary agents have done so or are apparently willing to do so. When there's do$h to be made and especially extra do$h to be made then they simply want to get their grubby mits on it in one way or another. Sure, many of the various secondary agents and/or market places allegedly provide some kind of protection against fraud and scams but that's hardly the point is it because buying from the primary source automatically has that level of protection and at a very much reduced bottom line. The point is that vast numbers of tix are still being creamed off the general sale and intentionally sold at inflated prices ... and the numbers of tix involved as well as the variety of events involved is apparently ever increasing. It's way too late to do anything now IMHO. The boat has been well and truly missed. The likelihood of anything happening (from a legal point of view) has to be as close to zero as it's possible to get simply because there's far too many peeps with a vested interest now and far too much do$h involved.

The only solutions available now involve punters not buying tix at anything other than face value (not going to happen as many peeps clearly have more money than sense) and promoters and/or agencies various not selling at inflated prices (also not going to happen in reality in most cases is it !) The only realistic option to minimise the problem is for promoters/organisers to price their events sensibly and then enforce their Ts&Cs to the letter e.g. no selling at more than face value by any means, much like the RFU have done for instance. By taking legal action against Viagogo they have won the right to obtain the personal details of anyone selling tickets for 2010/11 Six Nations matches at more than face value using Viagogo so that legal action and/or sanctions can be applied to those demonstrably in breach of contract. Viagogo lost their appeal at the end of last year although I expect that they're still trying to keep the seller details from being handed over by making further appeals or whatever. This precedent opens the door for similar action elsewhere in addition to helping prevent future occurrences. However, the very best that's likely to happen over time I think is that promoters in general will simply raise prices to be more in line with what punters are apparently prepared to pay thereby limiting the demand for tix to better match how many tix are actually available. In effect attempting to squeeze out secondary market areas where they have no vested interest whilst appearing to be more respectable by not apparently doing dodgy deals with third parties behind the scenes. In many ways, I'm quite surprised that they don't do this very much more often than many currently do.

How long before virtually all event tix are sold on an auction style basis ? Tickets officially go on-sale at some ridiculously inflated price to start with and the price is slowly reduced as the event gets closer. In reality, the only important thing is that an event almost sells out on the night. There's no real advantage in actually selling out and definitely no real advantage in selling out too soon - only bragging rights and that doesn't pay the bills or inflate the bank balance does it ! Any event that sells out too soon is quite obviously not making as much do$h as it could and should have. Those who ask for or support "market-driven pricing" or just lie back and accept being screwed over whenever and wherever possible are going to make this a reality in the not too distant future I would suggest

Edited February 24, 2012 by mikeb

[5co77ie]

Two really good follow up pieces on this here:

http://www.thecmuwebsite.com/article/industry-responds-following-dispatches-secondary-ticketing-expose/

and

http://christt.com/words/

[kaosmark2]

There's no longer a link to Viagogo on Gigantic for their sold out gigs.

[pryce]

one way around it .... probably wont work

but if ticket websites allowed you to get a refund ... for face value. you wouldnt be entitled to your booking fee back so they dont loose out and you have to post them back yourself. and then a month before the gig put all the tickets which have been refunded, back on sale in one batch.

then put a ban on secondry markets like viagogo etc or make sure they are not allowed to sell above face value.

[kaosmark2]

one way around it .... probably wont work

but if ticket websites allowed you to get a refund ... for face value. you wouldnt be entitled to your booking fee back so they dont loose out and you have to post them back yourself. and then a month before the gig put all the tickets which have been refunded, back on sale in one batch.

then put a ban on secondry markets like viagogo etc or make sure they are not allowed to sell above face value.

[pryce]

ah true didnt think of it like that.