Dispatches- The Great Ticket Scandal, C4 Thursday 9pm

[Kyelo]

Way around it is the Glastonbury route, your personal photo is on the ticket so only you can use it. OK you might get the odd person going in on their mates ticket but would wipe out the massive sales with companies etc....any ticket that is spotted online Glastonbury shut down.

[pryce]

trouble is with that people will buy for there mates as well ... and then if your ill and cant go for some reason or go at different times then would you be turned away?

[jump]

trouble is with that people will buy for there mates as well ... and then if your ill and cant go for some reason or go at different times then would you be turned away?

[Kyelo]

trouble is with that people will buy for there mates as well ... and then if your ill and cant go for some reason or go at different times then would you be turned away?

[pryce]

yes but if they have the buyers photo on them what then?

especially if you cant go or doing it for a favour etc

i presume your not going to put your friends photo id on each individual ticket?

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Way around it is the Glastonbury route, your personal photo is on the ticket so only you can use it. OK you might get the odd person going in on their mates ticket but would wipe out the massive sales with companies etc....any ticket that is spotted online Glastonbury shut down.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Rufus Gwertigan

[eFestivals]

one way around it .... probably wont work

but if ticket websites allowed you to get a refund ... for face value. you wouldnt be entitled to your booking fee back so they dont loose out

that's precisely what the govt asked promoters and ticket agents to do before they'd consider bringing in new legislation against touts (along with better bulk buying checks and better limits on number opf tickets that could be bought per-purchaser).

Because promoters and ticket agents refused to do that, we are where we are.

[kaosmark2]

I far prefer the ATP system. You have to show the credit card you booked with, you can transfer them, but you have to confirm the name, and have to show some evidence of transfer by the original booker.

[rexclark]

Well that programme showed me nothing that I didn't already suspect. It's ridiculous that the big companies get away with such underhand business. I'd hope that the govenment or the governing body would step in and have a good look at this but I certainly won't hold my breath.

[eFestivals]

the last time the government stepped in to help is why it's how it is now

not quite.

The govt made some recommendations for promoters and agents to follow to help crack down on touting before they'd consider if anti-touting laws were necessary.

Because the promoters and agents wouldn't implement those simple things then the govt felt that there couldn't be a big enough problem to need legislation.

The touting problem has got worse since then - because the biggest touts of all are now those promoters.

[jamiejc]

Viagogo defends sale of promoters' tickets...

Secondary ticketing website Viagogo has defended the practice of gig promoters selling tickets on its website saying "we don't discriminate".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-17151727

[eFestivals]

I thought it was a consequence of discussions between the promoters and the government.

Government to promoters; "we think touting is bad, what should we do about it?"

Promoters; "let us handle it... literally"

Nope, other way around. The promoters went to the govt complaining, because the amount of touting - and fake touting - going on via ebay at the time was causing them all sorts of difficulties, because they had to deal with the complaints or customers with fake tickets.

The govt made some reasonable suggestions. The promoters said they'd only put them in place if there was legislation that ring-fenced their market position, the govt said no to that, so the promoters did nothing the govt asked .... and became touts themselves instead.

[eFestivals]

Viagogo defends sale of promoters' tickets...

Secondary ticketing website Viagogo has defended the practice of gig promoters selling tickets on its website saying "we don't discriminate".

http://www.bbc.co.uk...t-arts-17151727

Have they tried defending that their public statements on what they were selling was ONE BIG LIE?

There's obviously shame by both the promoters and touts about this practice, otherwise they'd have been happy to openly publicise what they were both doing. It's not like the press releases we get from the promoters say "tickets available from ticketmaster and viagogo".

[eFestivals]

it's a curious defence.. "we don't discriminate"

It's designed to make them sound like the good guys, because we constantly have hammered into us that it's bad and wrong to discriminate.

[eFestivals]

here's the proof for what I said happened....

[Katster]

Mikeb that is the best post I have ever seen.

[eFestivals]

I can't help but think the promotors where being more than reasonable there...

The government fluffed it...

You what??

Firstly, the legislation they were asking for was not just anti-tout stuff, it was market protection stuff to ensure that the current big players couldn't ever be usurped by start-ups.

And secondly, when you go running to the govt complaining about touts, and the govt says "you can do these things to lessen the touting problem", you don't turn round and say "we'll only tackle the problem that we find a big problem if you protect our market position".

If the touts were the problem that the industry claimed, that industry would happily do anything and everything to lessen the problem. The fact that they didn't gets to expose that something else was going on (see above, with them wanting market protection legislation).

The whole scenario (which isn't all covered in that video) gets to show the big players in the industry using the fuss about touts for try and get something for themselves and not actually caring very much about the touting problem. The touts thing was merely the leverage they tried to use for market protection laws.

[t8yman]

actually, we are all coming up with some weird and wonderful ideas about how to curb this, but one of the quickest and easiest methods to make a huge impact would be to simply outlaw the resale of tickets, and actively police sites like ebay etc. as we know it is illegal to trade in football tickets, simply extend that legislation to include gigs, festivals, etc etc and a huge section of the touting problem would be wiped out. Ive said for a long time that the bedroom touts are the most irritating to me, the whole "I'll buy more than I need and sell them on ebay to pay for my own ticket(s)" are causing a massive problem.

then deal with the "big boys" accordingly.

[theampersanddevil]

I read your interview with Mr Ellis with great interest,

I know he wasn't involved in the resale side of the industry, but I have always had a problem with his attitude towards touting.

I've never been convinced by his arguements against glastonbury's photo system.

I also can't stand the fact he has a go at touts, yet sells tickets just after the festival, where a large number of festival goers struggle to get money together for tickets. Touts can buy ticketsn at that time, I know me and my mates can't.

[eFestivals]

actually, we are all coming up with some weird and wonderful ideas about how to curb this, but one of the quickest and easiest methods to make a huge impact would be to simply outlaw the resale of tickets, and actively police sites like ebay etc. as we know it is illegal to trade in football tickets, simply extend that legislation to include gigs, festivals, etc etc and a huge section of the touting problem would be wiped out. Ive said for a long time that the bedroom touts are the most irritating to me, the whole "I'll buy more than I need and sell them on ebay to pay for my own ticket(s)" are causing a massive problem.

then deal with the "big boys" accordingly.

You're spot on.

But the 'big boys' would lobby against this. They love the touts, because they guarantee promoters no-less and often more sales for the stuff they promote.

As that video gets to show, it's the sales which are top in their minds - and the reason why they don't offer a refund policy. They would far rather sell a wasted ticket than give their customers a good service.

[eFestivals]

They can't just offer a blank resale policy... That would be madness...

Like they say in the video they would become a clearing station for touts... and / or lose serious money if people started cancelling tickets 2 days before an event which they then could not shift...

Surely you see that Neil ?

no one has been suggesting a 'blank returns policy', just a returns policy.

As for it being a clearing system for touts, yep, that's a risk. But it's something they've allowed to come about by not having a returns policy in the first place.

The M&S returns policy is a shoplifter's dream, but it's still a policy they've managed to maintain.

Don't forget, the promoters who promote the sorts of gigs which are open to possible touting make huge amounts of money from promoting those gigs; you don't ever find a poor one. Their profits are not at risk, only perhaps their excessive greed.

Edited February 25, 2012 by eFestivals

[t8yman]

They can't just offer a blank resale policy... That would be madness...

Like they say in the video they would become a clearing station for touts... and / or lose serious money if people started cancelling tickets 2 days before an event which they then could not shift...

Surely you see that Neil ?

-------

I like the idea of limiting the sale of tickets via Ebay (like we do with football)... But I would not want an out right ban... Any legislation should allow the resale of tickets at face value...

Edited February 25, 2012 by t8yman

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I don't see how a returns policy would, or could work. It's not the same as a shop like M & S, where there isn't a cut off date for them to sell the returned items.

Imagine what it'd like for open air shows and festivals... people would be waiting for the weather forecast to see whether they'd want to go. Also for smaller shows that aren't sold out, it could make the difference between a gig making or losing money...

and a returns policy would encourage punters to buy more tickets than they actually want if they've nothing to lose by doing so

[eFestivals]

I don't see how a returns policy would, or could work. It's not the same as a shop like M & S, where there isn't a cut off date for them to sell the returned items.

Imagine what it'd like for open air shows and festivals... people would be waiting for the weather forecast to see whether they'd want to go. Also for smaller shows that aren't sold out, it could make the difference between a gig making or losing money...

and a returns policy would encourage punters to buy more tickets than they actually want if they've nothing to lose by doing so

Eavis does one with Glasto, where you can get refunds up-to 6 weeks before. Yeah, it'll never work.

All these problems can be easily over-come.

You can only return up to (say) a month before a show.

And If there's a small financial penalty for making a return (which there naturally is, because the booking fee would not be refunded), then people won't buy more than they need on spec.

[eFestivals]

There aren't many shows where you're booking the tickets 8 months in advance.

wrong. there's a hell of a lot nowadays, particularly for the shows that are likely to be instant sell-outs and so the most toutable.

A 14 day cooling off period seems workable.... but as I say, I don't think the returns issue is that big a deal. You can get insurance for most shows now if you're that unsure about whether you can go or not, which is much more practical

it's not a big deal, but it is one part of the jigsaw that's needed to have workable anti-tout policies. It removes the necessity of HAVING TO think about selling a spare ticket on the open market, where you can then start to think about the potential profits.

Edited February 25, 2012 by eFestivals