2013/ the future of soni?

[biffoire]

in those three years though each festival gad repeated a headliner, and lots of other acts. Download often gets slated for repeat bookings and soni would have soon enough as well. Also, if they could co-exist then soni wouldn't have been cancelled this year.

I actually hope it doesnt come back, the market is so oversaturated and it would lead to 2 sub par lineups, instead of one great one. It is a shame as they had some great line-ups, but 2 rock oriented fests just isnt sustainable.

[kipper64]

The argument that it'd lead to sub-par line ups is BS though, repeats or not arguably both festivals have had amazing line ups the past 3 years. Download having it's 3 biggest years ever (2009/2010/2012) despite the competition, and Sonisphere having 2 very successful years with Rammstein finally playing a festival, and 2011 which had slipknot's return and the very first big 4 show in the UK. As far as sales go, both managed to co-exist between 2009 and 2011 quite comfortably, and if things get better marketwise they can both co-exist in the future, not to mention this year both probably could have co-existed if Soni hadn't dropped the ball as much as they did.

Besides, I know a lot of people have been complaining about DOwnload this year and how it's become "too big" and how much the organisation sucked, so I think quite a lot of people would actually welcome a somewhat smaller alternative. Especially because Sonisphere, even when sold out, doesn't suffer anywhere near the amount of logistical issues, and it's a much more convenient site in terms of being able to get between the campsite and arena and all that jazz.

[willutalk]

I personally think that potentially Sonisphere and Download could actually co-exist. It was simply the line-up that wasn't good enough. I just think the Sonisphere 'tour' concept may have been a step too far. Having ten + separate legs is really quite a hard thing to pull off especially if you have competitors (Download). Sonisphere were asking too much and ended up putting a sub par line-up. Queen died when Mercury died, a bad booking. FNM are a popular band however not an eye catching band. KISS are great and are popular but with the other headliners with them it just doesn't work out as being a great year when Metallica Biffy Slipknot were the previous years headliners. The line-up was bad because long term it was not actually realistic, too many legs?? If Kililive stopped doing tours and did a separate festival with a separate festival it may long term be possible. With the UK being such a hot country for festivals they could take the UK leg out of the Sonipshere co-operation and focus on succeding in the UK. However would they want to do this.

Edited June 18, 2012 by willutalk

[kipper64]

The amount of legs really has no impact because they generally don't go for the same line up per show anyways. The fact that the tour still went ahead in Europe kind of shows how it's a good idea - and in a sense probably saved it from being a complete disaster. While it obviously has it's ups and downs - I know they never got to put shows on in some countries they planned on doing like Italy and Sweden which were "cancelled" before they were even announced, but most of the EU tours - have sold incredibly even since 2009 and is part of the reason they've managed to do so well in the past. If it wasn't for the tour they would never have tempted slipknot over to do a short memorial tour of Europe for Paul, if it wasn't for the tour, they might not have managed to tempt rammstein over etc.. After the 2010 run of festivals they had sold 1,000,000 sonisphere tickets (obviously including all events, and all ticket types) but that's still a pretty big achievement and shows how successful it was in it's first few years.

Their focus is usually on the UK anyways, as most of the EU legs are smaller events, and usually just need the one headliner to carry them in a sense (especially as a lot are maybe only 1 day events), I do agree bands they got this year was a main factor though, but I don't think them struggling for bands has anything to do with them having a touring festival.

Edited June 18, 2012 by kipper64

[kaosmark2]

I just think the Sonisphere 'tour' concept may have been a step too far. Having ten + separate legs is really quite a hard thing to pull off especially if you have competitors (Download).

[Justiceforcedave]

...if Soni has got Sabbath instead of Queen, It would have been a different story methinks.

[mrtourette]

The argument that it'd lead to sub-par line ups is BS though, repeats or not arguably both festivals have had amazing line ups the past 3 years. Download having it's 3 biggest years ever (2009/2010/2012) despite the competition, and Sonisphere having 2 very successful years with Rammstein finally playing a festival, and 2011 which had slipknot's return and the very first big 4 show in the UK. As far as sales go, both managed to co-exist between 2009 and 2011 quite comfortably, and if things get better marketwise they can both co-exist in the future, not to mention this year both probably could have co-existed if Soni hadn't dropped the ball as much as they did.

Besides, I know a lot of people have been complaining about DOwnload this year and how it's become "too big" and how much the organisation sucked, so I think quite a lot of people would actually welcome a somewhat smaller alternative. Especially because Sonisphere, even when sold out, doesn't suffer anywhere near the amount of logistical issues, and it's a much more convenient site in terms of being able to get between the campsite and arena and all that jazz.

[eFestivals]

what the Soni 'supporters' are missing from their thoughts is t5he fact that Download is going to be doing all it can to try and ensure that Soni is as badly stuffed (in the UK, at least) as it's possible to be. To do anything different would be extremely daft of them.

So, for example, there's been lots of rumours that Soni have Iron Maiden lined up already. If there's substance behind that, and if IM are not yet 100% fully contracted to Soni, then I have no doubts whatsoever that Download will do all they can to 'steal' IM from Soni, because IM are a guaranteed top headliner & top ticket seller - meaning that Soni would have difficulty getting as big an act as a replacement headliner, and their potential rival sales have been lessened.

[kipper64]

Yeah I'm not sure how tied up they are with Sonisphere, the rumour of them already being signed to do the tour next year though has been around since November 2011 though - from the same source that leaked FNM and Queen w/ Adam Lambert - and Hellfest confirmed it at their press conference a few months back that they won't have Iron Maiden next year as they are playing Sonisphere which backs it up. And as I said, their agent has a vested interest in the festival not flopping, so that'd surely make Download "stealing them" quite impossible, unless they really want the gig and their agent is unsure if Sonisphere is making a return and decides to just ditch it if the contracts or whatever hadn't already been signed by this point.

Though I imagine if Maiden are 100% involved for next year, they they'd want to get that announced as soon as possible, before Download start to announce their stuff which is apparenty going to be earlier again this year.

Edited June 19, 2012 by kipper64

[eFestivals]

how's Rod Smallwood got an interest in Soni?

But anyway, someone like him is going to want to take the gig that's not going to damage his pension, so if they're not 100% signed and sealed for Soni I really can't see him wanting to stick with the risky Soni if there's an offer (and perhaps a better offer) on the table for the far more stable and certain Download.

After all, if Maiden took the Soni gig but Soni flopped again for whatever reason (such as, for instance, the other headliners not being a big enough draw to make the whole thing a success), that would severely damage Maiden's reputation as a sure-fire ticket seller in this country, which will hit how much they'd get for future shows.

[kipper64]

Aren't they tied in with K2/John Jackson as far as booking their gigs for Europe goes?

But yeah, I agree with you there, that if it's not 100% tied down already, they'd possibly do Download - especially as they haven't down download in 5 (6 next year) years. Guess we'll have to wait and see, although I can imagine they'll still be playing some of/all of the euro tour - especially the successful ones.

[Black_Crow]

how's Rod Smallwood got an interest in Soni?

[eFestivals]

Smallwood is Maiden's co-manager, John Jackson is their promoter and booker, you know they guy who co-owns Sonisphere.

I wasn't actually aware of that till now.

But even so, I hugely doubt that would influence what booking he might choose to take. Maiden has been his long-term pay-day, while it's probably the case that he's yet to earn anything of substance from Soni.

There's all sorts of instances of bookers choosing bookings that are away from an offer from their other business interests. The real business always tends to come first.

[Black_Crow]

I understand what you are saying, business is business. Download could offer Maiden more money than Sonisphere for one show in the UK, but Sonisphere can offer them a whole tour.

Hellfest have already ruled Maiden out, which free's up Soni France. RaR have never had Maiden play as far as I know and for their German fix they will probably do Wacken again which is closer to Knebworth's dates in July, Sonisphere are good friends with Nova Rock, Sweden Rock have never had Maiden play and already have Rush as their star attraction, which really only leaves Graspop.

It seems pretty set in stone to me.

[eFestivals]

I understand what you are saying, business is business. Download could offer Maiden more money than Sonisphere for one show in the UK, but Sonisphere can offer them a whole tour.

Hellfest have already ruled Maiden out, which free's up Soni France. RaR have never had Maiden play as far as I know and for their German fix they will probably do Wacken again which is closer to Knebworth's dates in July, Sonisphere are good friends with Nova Rock, Sweden Rock have never had Maiden play and already have Rush as their star attraction, which really only leaves Graspop.

It seems pretty set in stone to me.

and yet .... I can't tell you what John Jackson is, but I can tell you what is isn't.

And that's someone with enough interest &/or clout &/or money in Soni to go up against AEG when they told Galbraith to pull this year's UK event - which Galbraith fought all the way from what I've heard. It didn't even change when AEG 'sold' (or gave away?) their interest in Kili.

So I'd say it's a very long way from being set in stone. Maiden will go with what is best for them rather than what is best for Soni, and it's exceedingly hard to see how they could be thinking that's what best for them is Soni.

[Black_Crow]

I think the arguement of will Soni go ahead has been done to death. It's pretty obvious it's still going. Soni have had 5 events this year which all sold reasonably well, not to mention Kili's stakes in Rockness, Wakestock, Bloodstock, Knebworth House gigs, Warped Tour and a multitude of other gigs and events. The website is still up and running as are the forums and Lady Lytton at Knebworth House said everything's on track. Obviously we haven't heard anything official due to the fact there is still Soni France to play out, no doubt we will hear something after that's over.

Soni isn't any more of a risk than what Download is after the numerous band pull outs, talks of crap organisation and sheer number of complaints this year.

[BTK1609]

I think the arguement of will Soni go ahead has been done to death. It's pretty obvious it's still going. Soni have had 5 events this year which all sold reasonably well, not to mention Kili's stakes in Rockness, Wakestock, Bloodstock, Knebworth House gigs, Warped Tour and a multitude of other gigs and events. The website is still up and running as are the forums and Lady Lytton at Knebworth House said everything's on track. Obviously we haven't heard anything official due to the fact there is still Soni France to play out, no doubt we will hear something after that's over.

Soni isn't any more of a risk than what Download is after the numerous band pull outs, talks of crap organisation and sheer number of complaints this year.

[eFestivals]

not to mention Kili's stakes in Rockness

Kili has no stake in Rockness, it's owned by AEG.

AEG used to have a stake in Kili, but they don't any more - it all went tits up around the cancellation of Soni.

Wakestock, Bloodstock, Knebworth House gigs,

whether these are making Kili any money is another thing.

(that's not me saying they're not, but festivals are not the licence to print money that some people believe them to be)

Soni isn't any more of a risk than what Download is after the numerous band pull outs, talks of crap organisation and sheer number of complaints this year.

yes it is. It has a damaged rep.

That means it'll be harder for them to convince bands to play it, which in turn will make it harder to convince punters to buy tickets.

That's not me saying it's impossible for it to continue, that's me saying it's going to be MUCH harder task to pull it off in future years.

Given that there's really not the audience or enough bands for two rock festivals of the size of Download and Soni to be long-term sustainable - and that won't have passed agents and bands by - and that Soni is already damaged, bands and agents will have a very strong preference for which they'd prefer to get a booking from.

[jump]

Using my psychic powers I predict someone will say both Download & Soni happened the same year and were successfull before therefore Soni is 100% going ahead next year.

Edited June 20, 2012 by jump

[biffoire]

I admire your optimism and I genuinely hope that Soni does go ahead next year as I can't see myself going back to Leeds and would like to do a second festival. That last statement just comes across as pure fanboyism though!

[mrtourette]

Using my psychic powers I predict someone will say both Download & Soni happened the same year and were successfull before therefore Soni is 100% going to ahead next year.

[Black_Crow]

Kili has no stake in Rockness, it's owned by AEG.

AEG used to have a stake in Kili, but they don't any more - it all went tits up around the cancellation of Soni.

yes it is. It has a damaged rep.

That means it'll be harder for them to convince bands to play it, which in turn will make it harder to convince punters to buy tickets.

that won't have passed agents and bands by - and that Soni is already damaged, bands and agents will have a very strong preference for which they'd prefer to get a booking from.

[Black_Crow]

Just the last statement?

[biffoire]

I love soni. I hate fan boys.

[biffoire]

Also, Neil is echoing exactly what I've been saying about Sonis damaged reputation. How is it he's not 'slamming' sonisphere. :S