Christenings

[lost]

I assume you have already thrown her down the stairs?

[kaosmark2]

They can have their day, providing that I'm not personally involved in the religious part. I'm going to try and reason with the Vicar, end of the day he's not going to want to potentially let one slip through the net, neither is he likely to want me to stand in front of his God and tell a pack of lies.

If the Vicar won't compromise then no dice, that's not my fault. I'll be able to say that I was willing to meet them / him well over half way. Nothing more I can do.

[eFestivals]

I don't think saying you refuse to be personally involved in the religious part is being unreasonable.

PMSL - there's nothing reasonable about agreeing to your child being brought up indoctrinated in Christian ways - which is what you agree to with a Christening - but then refusing to be involved in what you are agreeing to.

There is something eminently reasonable about not wanting to push a religion on a child, and allowing that child to form their own views.

If your missus won't agree with what is reasonable, then she is not reasonable. Which gets to mean that all of the other ideas that you have that you think will be reasonable will not necessarily be thought of as reasonable by your missus.

The simple fact is that the only reasonable action is to speak your mind and refuse to go along with something that is entirely unnecessary from every single angle. Pretending is being more unreasonable than refusing.

What does your child lose by there being no christening? From both personal and religious angles, the answer is only this: nothing

What does your missus lose by there being no christening? From both personal and religious angles, the answer is only this: nothing.

If your missus wants a party then have a frigging party. There's no need for any religious pretence.

[kaosmark2]

PMSL - there's nothing reasonable about agreeing to your child being brought up indoctrinated in Christian ways - which is what you agree to with a Christening - but then refusing to be involved in what you are agreeing to.

There is something eminently reasonable about not wanting to push a religion on a child, and allowing that child to form their own views.

If your missus won't agree with what is reasonable, then she is not reasonable. Which gets to mean that all of the other ideas that you have that you think will be reasonable will not necessarily be thought of as reasonable by your missus.

The simple fact is that the only reasonable action is to speak your mind and refuse to go along with something that is entirely unnecessary from every single angle. Pretending is being more unreasonable than refusing.

What does your child lose by there being no christening? From both personal and religious angles, the answer is only this: nothing

What does your missus lose by there being no christening? From both personal and religious angles, the answer is only this: nothing.

If your missus wants a party then have a frigging party. There's no need for any religious pretence.

[nightcrawler13]

this is a dumb question, but can you not just say you're all ready a christian and lie to the vicar man?

if I was in your situation, and I had a choice of sticking to my guns and pissing off the other half of the family which will result in a lifetime and narkiness, or pretending to be a christian for a few hours and getting a party?

The latter, and make the wife promise to honour every steak & BJ day till the Rapture

[wee_insomniac]

If I'm over-stating it, why are the churches so very damn keen to sign up babies?

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Your child may be disadvantaged if they can't get into a decent faith school because of not being Christened. They are going to be exposed to religion even if you don't get them Christened. It's a bit of a no brainer - don't gamble with your child's future education just to prove to yourself that you're a rank and file atheist. You want your child to be a well rounded critical thinker. They are going to need more of an education than that which you can instill in them in order to achieve that - this will in part be achieved at a good school.

Just go through the motions, have a party, and then don't raise the issue again until your child asks you questions. Then you can explain to them that some people are religious and some aren't and that you fall into the later camp etc etc. The arguments that you'll be selling the soul of your child to religion are, in my opinion, over inflated.

[kaosmark2]

Your child may be disadvantaged if they can't get into a decent faith school because of not being Christened. They are going to be exposed to religion even if you don't get them Christened. It's a bit of a no brainer - don't gamble with your child's future education just to prove to yourself that you're a rank and file atheist. You want your child to be a well rounded critical thinker. They are going to need more of an education than that which you can instill in them in order to achieve that - this will in part be achieved at a good school.

Just go through the motions, have a party, and then don't raise the issue again until your child asks you questions. Then you can explain to them that some people are religious and some aren't and that you fall into the later camp etc etc. The arguments that you'll be selling the soul of your child to religion are, in my opinion, over inflated.

[nightcrawler13]

people are making a way bigger deal of this than needed...

there are two options;

Don't do it, make everyone apart from himself unhappy, and even then I have a feeling he wouldn't feel too great about it

Do it, it's utilitarianism, he tells a lie to a vicar, everyone is happy, big party, next day he can wash the holy water off the kids head and all is forgotten

The only person who might mind is God, who if was to exist, and was the all loving version in the New Testament, would be a big fan of utilitarianism and wouldn't care. If he is the mean Old Testament version, well he doesn't believe in him so all's well than ends well eh?

[kaosmark2]

people are making a way bigger deal of this than needed...

there are two options;

Don't do it, make everyone apart from himself unhappy, and even then I have a feeling he wouldn't feel too great about it

Do it, it's utilitarianism, he tells a lie to a vicar, everyone is happy, big party, next day he can wash the holy water off the kids head and all is forgotten

The only person who might mind is God, who if was to exist, and was the all loving version in the New Testament, would be a big fan of utilitarianism and wouldn't care. If he is the mean Old Testament version, well he doesn't believe in him so all's well than ends well eh?

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Not all good schools are faith schools and it won't necessarily impact negatively on their education prospects.

Some of the arguments are ridiculous, but while I don't think he'd be selling the soul of his child to religion (I don't think the christening matters a damn to the child as its not their decision), but I'd be uncomfortable if it were me standing up promising to raise my child Christian. I'd be lying to everyone and I don't think it's right that atheists/agnostics should be pressured to "just go along with it" when, as someone rightly said earlier, a Jewish or Muslim person wouldn't be.

[kaosmark2]

I know that not all good schools are faith schools, that's why I used the term 'may'. It just seems to me to be reducing the chances of getting a good school if several of them happen to be Christian faith schools.

It hadn't occurred to me about being uncomfortable about lying - as I'd do it no problem. Then again I'm one of those people who was forced to go to church every Sunday, so lying about me believing the religion has come naturally. Or unnaturally, depending on your perspective. I agree with you that in a perfect world atheists/ agnostics shouldn't be pressurised to go along with it, but it's not a perfect world.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Yeah, if I was in and likely to stay in an area where the majority of schools were Christian faith schools I might consider it. Might.

I don't think it's something we should accept as a "in a perfect world but..." situation. Standing up for your beliefs and not letting others persecute you into lying and making false promises shouldn't be that hard in our supposedly 'free' society.

[nightcrawler13]

Some of us don't like to pretend to be something we're not. Particularly when it comes to making promises regarding our loved ones.

[kaosmark2]

Unfortunately standing up for your beliefs in this instance could cost the child a place at a good school. On top of that it will p*ss off his misses if he doesn't go through with it.

On a separate note it could be argued that the OP is trying to enforce his non religious beliefs on to the child. Surely it's only as equally valid as having a religious belief.

[kaosmark2]

so you'd choose to piss off every other member of the family cause you 'don't like pretending your something your not?'

when a friend asks if she looks fat, you say no

when your mother asks if she looks old, you say no

when your child asks you if there drawing looks good, you say yes

if a person can't tell inconsequential lies for the happiness of others they'd be a nightmare to be around. Everyone has opinions, but no one gives a shit about yours if it upsets everyone else for no purpose

its a christening, some meaningless words and some water, the kid isn't being branded for life, he isn't being sent off to faith school and he won't even remember it!

[feral chile]

just like to say everything Neil has been saying is how I feel.

(been a bit busy...)

Edited April 10, 2012 by feral chile

[nightcrawler13]

I don't think making a promise to raise a child christian to your partner is an inconsequential lie.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

On the assumption that the OP's claim "there are no such barriers here" rules out the schools argument:

Regarding pissing off his partner, I suspect it comes down to how he approaches the issue. I don't think any reasonable person who hasn't referenced religion in 15 years will genuinely consider this a major issue if discussed calmly rather than as a stubborn refusal. It sounds more like a tradition and an excuse for a party rather than a clash of religious beliefs. I don't think it's enforcing non-religious beliefs either, a child can always be christened later as long as they're told "I don't believe in a god" instead of "there is no god and anyone who thinks there is is wrong and going to suffer" as the inverse of religious doctrine.

[feral chile]

On the assumption that the OP's claim "there are no such barriers here" rules out the schools argument:

Regarding pissing off his partner, I suspect it comes down to how he approaches the issue. I don't think any reasonable person who hasn't referenced religion in 15 years will genuinely consider this a major issue if discussed calmly rather than as a stubborn refusal. It sounds more like a tradition and an excuse for a party rather than a clash of religious beliefs. I don't think it's enforcing non-religious beliefs either, a child can always be christened later as long as they're told "I don't believe in a god" instead of "there is no god and anyone who thinks there is is wrong and going to suffer" as the inverse of religious doctrine.

[kaosmark2]

it doesn't sound as if Johnny Cash's partner wants the child raised a Christian, he just has to say it to the vicar?

[feral chile]

it doesn't sound as if Johnny Cash's partner wants the child raised a Christian, he just has to say it to the vicar?

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

it doesn't sound as if Johnny Cash's partner wants the child raised a Christian, he just has to say it to the vicar?

[kaosmark2]

If the decent school thing is not an issue then my train of thought alters dramatically. By this I mean that as he's not potentially going to harm his child's educational progress in the world, then there's an argument in him standing his ground. The only downside to that is p*ssing off his misses and in laws. Nobody can really tell the OP on whether this is an acceptable price to pay for sticking to ones principles.

If it were me and you put a gun to my head and say decide then I'd probably just run with the Christening. I would then forget about the religion thing until it reared it's head again in later years as the child ask questions.

[feral chile]

That's it really - just lie to the vicar. Effectively if you're a non believer then you know the vicar to be pulling a fast one, so why not do the same but without any guilt.

Edited April 10, 2012 by feral chile