Christenings

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

Too many replies to address them individually!

First off Neil is massively over stating his case. I'm all my time reading books, sceptics forums, podcasts, newspaper articles etc… on the subject this is literally the first time that I've ever agreed that the Atheist is coming across as the zealot. The. First. Time.

I say that as someone who thinks that Richard Dawkins is too polite. My views are more aligned to Christophe Hitchens & I'll present them as forcefully in the right situation.

I'm no moderate or religious apologist in this debate.

That said, unless you marry your own clone, any marriage involves compromise.

I've spoken to the wife and she accepts the compromise, she's not happy about it, but she agrees that there's no compromise that we'll both be 100% happy with and this is as close to meeting in the middle as we're going to get unless there's a 3rd option that nobody has though of yet.

She's not that fussed about the religious side of things, she wants some sort of naming ceremony, she wants the party but she also wants it in a church - preferably a specific church & seeing as you can't have the church without the religion then there's going to be religion.

If the church in question won't compromise on allowing it to happen without my involvement, then she'll reluctantly find another church.

She understands that there's ZERO chance that I'll be involved.

As to why I can't just go along with it and tell a white lie - I don't think it's just a white lie.

I feel strongly that I want to be able to tell the baby when it grows up that I was willing to kick up enough of a fuss about it that I refused to take part (I also want to be able to tell it that you can't always get things your own way by stamping your feet and being a total stubborn dick to anyone that disagrees with you).

Thats how I expect it to believe me when I say that I don't believe in God - along with a million other things that I've already mentioned.

On top of that I'm not particularly comfortable standing up in front of all my friends & family and telling lies under any circumstances, let alone because of someone's irrational belief in invisible cloud people.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Hello... I'm Johnny Cash

[russycarps]

I bet you arent going to put any money under her pillow from the tooth fairy either are you. And on her 4th birthday you are going to inform her that father christmas doesnt exist and that the easter bunny is a lie.

You monster.

[eFestivals]

First off Neil is massively over stating his case. I'm all my time reading books, sceptics forums, podcasts, newspaper articles etc… on the subject this is literally the first time that I've ever agreed that the Atheist is coming across as the zealot. The. First. Time.

PMSL.

I'm simply saying it strongly, in what is clearly a mis-placed attempt to give you the backbone you're lacking.

I've pointed out the irrefutable point that the only fair compromise is for the kid to not be Christened. That is not the athiest 'winning', that is a deferral of the decision of the kid's religion to be left to the kid when it's old enough to decide for itself.

I've been here myself. I know how it plays out.

That said, unless you marry your own clone, any marriage involves compromise.

as I say above, the only fair compromise is no christening and for the kid to decide for itself when old enough. In the meantime, both you and the missus have the opportunity to impress your views on the kid if you wish to.

It is no compromise when your missus is getting all of her wishes btw - which she is.

She's not that fussed about the religious side of things, she wants some sort of naming ceremony, she wants the party but she also wants it in a church - preferably a specific church & seeing as you can't have the church without the religion then there's going to be religion.

She's not fussed about the religious side of things but insists on a church? PMSL.

She understands that there's ZERO chance that I'll be involved.

.... until she discovers that you have to be for her to get what she's demanding (without compromise) is fulfilled 100%.

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

I bet you arent going to put any money under her pillow from the tooth fairy either are you. And on her 4th birthday you are going to inform her that father christmas doesnt exist and that the easter bunny is a lie.

You monster.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Hello... I'm Johnny Cash

[russycarps]

Ha! Funny you should say that…

I'm actually a little uncomfortable with the whole Santa thing, I can't quite reconcile how it's not double think on one hand say that things like God are ridiculous from day one, whilst at the same time saying that Santa and all the magic that involves is real.

I can't see how a child wouldn't be confused by that.

Am I a bad person?

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

I think your going to have problems when the kid goes to school telling the other kids there is no Santa... Wouldn't want to be you when 30 pissed off mothers kick the shit out of you

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

I think it might be time to put all the Hitchens books to one side for a minute and perhaps stop thinking so deeply about things. A little bit of fantasy in a childs life is no bad thing. He/she will be a cynical git like their father soon enough dont worry!

[kaosmark2]

i hope none of you give or receive presents at Christmas, because that would be lying to yourself, others and Jesus

it might have lost it's religious importance, and become more of a tradition amongst English people, but... oh wait, I'm pretty sure you all do

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Too many replies to address them individually!

First off Neil is massively over stating his case. I'm all my time reading books, sceptics forums, podcasts, newspaper articles etc… on the subject this is literally the first time that I've ever agreed that the Atheist is coming across as the zealot. The. First. Time.

I say that as someone who thinks that Richard Dawkins is too polite. My views are more aligned to Christophe Hitchens & I'll present them as forcefully in the right situation.

I'm no moderate or religious apologist in this debate.

That said, unless you marry your own clone, any marriage involves compromise.

I've spoken to the wife and she accepts the compromise, she's not happy about it, but she agrees that there's no compromise that we'll both be 100% happy with and this is as close to meeting in the middle as we're going to get unless there's a 3rd option that nobody has though of yet.

She's not that fussed about the religious side of things, she wants some sort of naming ceremony, she wants the party but she also wants it in a church - preferably a specific church & seeing as you can't have the church without the religion then there's going to be religion.

If the church in question won't compromise on allowing it to happen without my involvement, then she'll reluctantly find another church.

She understands that there's ZERO chance that I'll be involved.

As to why I can't just go along with it and tell a white lie - I don't think it's just a white lie.

I feel strongly that I want to be able to tell the baby when it grows up that I was willing to kick up enough of a fuss about it that I refused to take part (I also want to be able to tell it that you can't always get things your own way by stamping your feet and being a total stubborn dick to anyone that disagrees with you).

Thats how I expect it to believe me when I say that I don't believe in God - along with a million other things that I've already mentioned.

On top of that I'm not particularly comfortable standing up in front of all my friends & family and telling lies under any circumstances, let alone because of someone's irrational belief in invisible cloud people.

[kaosmark2]

Too many replies to address them individually!

First off Neil is massively over stating his case. I'm all my time reading books, sceptics forums, podcasts, newspaper articles etc… on the subject this is literally the first time that I've ever agreed that the Atheist is coming across as the zealot. The. First. Time.

I say that as someone who thinks that Richard Dawkins is too polite. My views are more aligned to Christophe Hitchens & I'll present them as forcefully in the right situation.

I'm no moderate or religious apologist in this debate.

That said, unless you marry your own clone, any marriage involves compromise.

I've spoken to the wife and she accepts the compromise, she's not happy about it, but she agrees that there's no compromise that we'll both be 100% happy with and this is as close to meeting in the middle as we're going to get unless there's a 3rd option that nobody has though of yet.

She's not that fussed about the religious side of things, she wants some sort of naming ceremony, she wants the party but she also wants it in a church - preferably a specific church & seeing as you can't have the church without the religion then there's going to be religion.

If the church in question won't compromise on allowing it to happen without my involvement, then she'll reluctantly find another church.

She understands that there's ZERO chance that I'll be involved.

As to why I can't just go along with it and tell a white lie - I don't think it's just a white lie.

I feel strongly that I want to be able to tell the baby when it grows up that I was willing to kick up enough of a fuss about it that I refused to take part (I also want to be able to tell it that you can't always get things your own way by stamping your feet and being a total stubborn dick to anyone that disagrees with you).

Thats how I expect it to believe me when I say that I don't believe in God - along with a million other things that I've already mentioned.

On top of that I'm not particularly comfortable standing up in front of all my friends & family and telling lies under any circumstances, let alone because of someone's irrational belief in invisible cloud people.

[kaosmark2]

I had a discussion with the kids last night. One just said if you were a vegetarian would you eat meat just to please others, why should your beliefs be any different,

[abdoujaparov]

Good for you. I was trying to say that yesterday.

I dont think it will cause as much trouble as you think and a the end of the day your child will hear a tale that Dad is not willing to compromise his moral integrity.

I had a discussion with the kids last night. One just said if you were a vegetarian would you eat meat just to please others, why should your beliefs be any different, I am a foaming at the mouth athiest btw but the kids that live we me know my beliefs and know I am not willing to compromise them. However more importantly they know that I respect other views, an issue when one decided they wanted to go to church.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Does the vegetarian analogy hold up though? Nobody has said for the OP to change his beliefs to please others. It wasn't implied that he should taste / get religion. It was merely suggested that he should go along with the pantomime in order to keep the peace family wise. He could still have told the child at a later date that he was uncomfortable with it etc Anyway it all seems to be sorted now - his misses is getting what she wants.

[abdoujaparov]

Does the vegetarian analogy hold up though? Nobody has said for the OP to change his beliefs to please others. It wasn't implied that he should taste / get religion. It was merely suggested that he should go along with the pantomime in order to keep the peace family wise. He could still have told the child at a later date that he was uncomfortable with it etc Anyway it all seems to be sorted now - his misses is getting what she wants.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

it's a good analogy...in taking part in a christian ceremony, against your beliefs, you are precisely "tasting" religion...you're participating in something which is contrary to yur beliefs and principles

[abdoujaparov]

Not really. Not if deep down you don't give a f*ck for religion. You are merely having to spend time bored out of your mind while those around you say prayers etc. It's easily done. I've done it myself for a couple of decades of my early life just to keep the peace. I don't go now because I can no longer tolerate the boredom not because I oppose what those around me think.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Overall the point I'm making is to do with the OP's set of circumstances not mine. If he objects to religion on principle then why is he making an allowance to have some sort of service in a church. Surely that's a slippage on principle which the analogy doesn't cater for.

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

Overall the point I'm making is to do with the OP's set of circumstances not mine. If he objects to religion on principle then why is he making an allowance to have some sort of service in a church. Surely that's a slippage on principle which the analogy doesn't cater for.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Not really, I'm allowing my child to eat meat on the condition that I don't have to.

[russycarps]

Not really, I'm allowing my child to eat meat on the condition that I don't have to.

[t8yman]

Great thread, sorry I'm late!

I've never been a believer, but about 6 years ago kind of faced up to the fact that I am an atheist, and have steadily got more and more militant about it. I do go to weddings, christenings etc, but I never sing, never say amen, and certainly don't put any money in the plate. I always thank the priest on the way out ( has has welcomed you into his "home" after all.

My 2 kids are both christened, because at the time I really didn't care either way, I was just someone who didn't believe. I did a reading at my grandads funeral a month ago, I actually did 2 because the other person dropped out 5 minutes before. I was reading a story to a group people with a view to offering some comfort, and my grandma requested that I do it.

It takes years and years of focused brainwashing to indoctrinate a child into religion, and it took me about 10 minutes to fuck it all up (for the church) with each of my children, you only have to tell them that it's all stories, and they aren't true.

I don't think I would have a kid christened now, my daughter had her first communion - but has personally refused confirmation since she doesn't believe in the crap, and has no interest in being a part of it. My wife has mentioned first communion for the boy, I told her I'm not keen, and ramped up on the boy- he isn't keen any more. So I have finally managed to right the wrongs that I may have failed on re the christenings.

If someone asked me to be a god parent, I would respectfully decline.

I think I would dig my heels in. I would tell the priest that I am not a theist and that I would agree to be present, but not make any vows, then the ball would be in his court, some priests are very progressive, the younger ones usually. I would find a church and priest that would agree to your wishes. You would already be compromising by allowing the child to be christened, you shouldn't be expected to abandon your stance entirely, and if the inlays and wife can't live with that then they are being wholly unreasonable.

[eFestivals]

It takes years and years of focused brainwashing to indoctrinate a child into religion, and it took me about 10 minutes to fuck it all up (for the church) with each of my children, you only have to tell them that it's all stories, and they aren't true.

while I agree with the first bit, all of the indoctrination is there within society - huge aspects of life are based within Christianity, and school hammers it home.

And so it takes more than just 10 minutes to fuck it up. The average kid will find it easier to believe that David Beckham is a space alien than there is no basis to all god stories. People are taught to question all things aside from religion, which is considered beyond all rational debate.

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

Sorry, I'm getting a little lost on this one. Will you or will you not be attending the service?

[t8yman]

while I agree with the first bit, all of the indoctrination is there within society - huge aspects of life are based within Christianity, and school hammers it home.

And so it takes more than just 10 minutes to fuck it up. The average kid will find it easier to believe that David Beckham is a space alien than there is no basis to all god stories. People are taught to question all things aside from religion, which is considered beyond all rational debate.

[kaosmark2]

in my personal experience, i disagree (if you start early enough). my kids both know that they dont HAVE to believe any of it. kids live their entire young lives trusting what adults tell them, its in our nature. which is what makes religious indoctrination all the more abhorrent. even the likes of Barry wouldnt be religious if it hadnt been drummed into them as children.