Christenings

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Yeah... I'll probably go and watch. I'm not playing any part in the ceremony though.

[Ed209]

The parents can raise the child as a Christian without being a Christian themselves.

But the church wants to hook them all, and have them all make a binding obligation - for a baby FFS, that's only just found it's mum's nipple, it doesn't have a fucking clue where god is, or if there's a god at all.

If they only wanted genuine believers, they'd wait till the child was old enough to know it's own mind. The fact that they don't gets to show that it's not about genuine belief but about snaring those who are unable to put up any resistance, to make things a fait accompli.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I think what stands out is that an atheist is expected to just tow the line with occasions like this as at the end of the day "it is just a few words". Given that our society and legal system are based on sincerity and honesty I find it difficult to understand why people, especialy those with religion, would advocate dishonesty. Oathes and promises are made all the time and I hate to admit it but I believe in keeping to them.

Just slightly digressing there are some fundamentalists that believe children should not be christened. There argument is that is should be saved for older kids and adults. Then they are in a position to accept christ and have their shop washed away. It is the catholic church that brought forward of the original sin blah blah blah.

I was never christened. There was a chapel not far from where we lived called "Fishermans Bethel". It was a nondenominational chapel for the local fishing community. What it offered was a "blessing" naming ceremony. It ticked all the boxes for a ceremony but with no mention of God in a chapel and a fuck off party afterwards.

[abdoujaparov]

Just to be clear I am not religious but I do have faith god exists...

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Good excuse for a knees up?

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Just to be clear I am not religious but I do have faith god exists... I know the distinction might not mean much to others but it does to me... Like I keep telling people I don't see myself as a "Christian"...

[kaosmark2]

Surely being religious is following a religion.... I don't "follow" a religion...

[eFestivals]

in my personal experience, i disagree (if you start early enough). my kids both know that they dont HAVE to believe any of it. kids live their entire young lives trusting what adults tell them, its in our nature. which is what makes religious indoctrination all the more abhorrent. even the likes of Barry wouldnt be religious if it hadnt been drummed into them as children.

knowing they don't have to believe it is something else again.

You're 100% right, kids live their lives trusting what adults tell them - and there's many more adults telling them there's a god than there are those telling them there isn't.

And while kids tend to listen to their parents, that doesn't necessarily have primacy. They are told that they should listen to their teachers, that teachers are smart, that teachers know things - and religion is presented to them as real at school in the exact same way as everything else they are taught at school. In fact more so, because of the way that religion is embedded within society.

Kids don't throw all of that indoctrination off in anything like the same way as they do fairy stories or Santa. The way that the 'realness' of religion comes at them from every direction helps ensure that they're very likely to treat it as no less real than their dad having a car (or whatever).

[eFestivals]

What part of a christening is a "binding obligation for a baby"?

None of it.

It depends how you view it.

A marriage has two people stand up in church and make a solemn promise to each other - and there's few who do that who don't take that promise as binding (at the moment it's made, at least), and a big deal. A Christening is little different.

I'm well aware that people might well be more flippant towards the promises they make for a child at a Christening, but how the whole thing is done is designed with the same purpose in mind, that it's binding promise that a person is meant to follow thru on - and that psychological pressure has an effect. People in general, as an average, consider it a more binding* promise than they tend to do for other more general "yeah, I'll do that" types of verbal promises they make as they go thru their lives.

(* that's not me saying that they're necessarily more likely to stick to that promise compared to a more general one, but that they consider it to be a bigger deal of a promise [much as they do with marriage])

[eFestivals]

I think what stands out is that an atheist is expected to just tow the line with occasions like this as at the end of the day "it is just a few words".

yup - and those with a fear of the damnation that religion promises to deniers, see doing that as a reasonable compromise, the only compromise that should be made about it. They don't see a compromise from the other side, of not having a Christening at all, as any sort of fair compromise - that would be the atheist being completely unreasonable.

Which just gets to show how strongly religious traditions are embedded, and how difficult it is to throw them off even for those who claim to not much care about religion. And the result is another child who has the same things embedded into them.

And it's precisely for these reasons that I've given such a tough line here towards going along with the whole thing. It just perpetuates all the same things into the future.

It is not any compromise for the person wanting the christening to get it when the person who does not want the christening gets nothing of their want towards that christening.

The only true compromise towards a christening is not to have one at all - because the kid is then not inducted to religion any more than its inducted to atheism. Nothing of not having a christening denies that child the chance of religion; they are able to chose a religion by their own mind at a later date, and the child is not harmed in the eyes of god according to religious scriptures by not having a christening as a baby or child.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

isn't "why don't we have a good knees-up because we want one" a good enough excuse?

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Yes, but it's nicer to be celebrating something. Helps take the initial guilt of getting trashed out of your mind.

Johhny Cash - just wondering if you got married in a church or a registry office? Obviously wondering if you've had this dilemma before.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Rufus Gwertigan

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

Johhny Cash - just wondering if you got married in a church or a registry office? Obviously wondering if you've had this dilemma before.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Is that not why people have naming ceremonies? Manyy churches offer ceremonies other than a christening such as a blessing. Not all religions have a baptism yet people manage to have a party.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Johhny Cash - just wondering if you got married in a church or a registry office? Obviously wondering if you've had this dilemma before.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I think he someone wanted me to marry in a church it would be deal breaker.

[kaosmark2]

I guess I'm just slack because I'd just go through with it. I certainly wouldn't want to split up over religion.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I see it as such a fundamentally defining outlook upon life, morality and the reasons for people's behaviour that I struggle to see many better reasons to break up.

And even if I could put up with a religious person, I certainly couldn't put up with one insisting I go along with the religious bullshit part of a commitment ceremony.

[rachbon]

Yes, but it's nicer to be celebrating something.

Edited April 12, 2012 by _rachelbon

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

Each to their own I guess. I was brought up a Roman Catholic and as a result have been to masses, funerals, Christenings, weddings, benediction. It's a load of nonsense really but it was, at the time, something I did to keep the peace. I just find them dull (except for weddings) and often have very impure thoughts during the proceedings.

Johnny Cash - if one of your mates was getting married in a church what would your stance be on going to that?

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Isn't having a baby enough of a reason to celebrate? There doesn't need to be any sort of official ceremony. If someone wants to have a party for their baby but without the christening part, then I don't see the problem with doing exactly that.

Same here. My mum's side of the family are all catholic and I was brought up the same. It does piss me off a bit that I went to a catholic school, because even although I realised at about 10 years old that it was all shite and I am an atheist, when I tell people what school I went to they automatically assume I am catholic, and will still think I am catholic even when I tell them I'm an atheist.

Even although you can make your own choices in life and I have completely rejected the religion I was brought up with, in some people's eyes if you were christened and brought up as a certain religion, then that is your religion. It's hard to get rid of the religious label you were stamped with as a baby.

I go to weddings, communions, confirmations, funerals etc. They're family events so I go along, but I feel very uncomfortable being in a chapel and seeing my younger cousins being forced into religion like I was. I don't sing along to hymns, pray, eat communion etc. the only involvement I have is by attending, I do no more than that.

I think it's different when it's your own child though, you have the opportunity to bring them up without religion, if you are an atheist I don't know why you would agree to have your child christened. If your only reason for doing something is to keep the peace, then that's ridiculous.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Just to be clear - we're not going to split up over this!

Re someone I know getting married in a church, fine by me.

I'd happily go & just not join in with singing hymns & saying prayers etc...

[rachbon]

You have said it's ridiculous yet haven't said why. In fact you're erring on hypocrisy as you yourself go to such events despite being a non believer. You state that it's because they are family events. That's the same reason I go to these events - to keep the family happy ie. to keep the peace. I'm such a cad that I'll even mumble some prayers every now and again. Really don't know why I do that but suspect it stems from indoctrination as a young child.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Your own words are " I go to prevent having an arguement with my family about it." Yet I am accussed of being ridiculous for keeping the peace. That's where I see a little bit of hypocrisy.

Your words - "If one parent wants the child christened and the other doesn't, the only fair thing to do is not christen them. then the child can develop thier own views and beliefs as they grow up"

Can't see how the only fair thing to do is not Christen them. They can still be Christened and make their own mind up later. It sounds like there's not going to be a whole load of indoctrination going to be going on in the OP's house. Neither from him or his misses by the sounds of it.

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

I think it's completely different with your own child though. You have the opportunity to bring your child up without forcing them into a religion. If one parent wants the child christened and the other doesn't, the only fair thing to do is not christen them. then the child can develop thier own views and beliefs as they grow up and can have a christening if they want one. So in the situation that the OP is in, I think it's ridiculous to go along with it just to keep the peace, because it's not a compromise, the wife wants a christening and they are having one, the OP doesn't want it but is going along with it anyway. That's not a compromise, and I think it's strange that the OP is agreeing to have his child forced itno religion, when he is an atheist.