that girl who died running the marathon

[fred quimby]

You don't hear me at all, because nowhere have I said anything about "everyone who donated being racist".

[eFestivals]

No you didn't. inferred though, but that maybe just down to words being read on a forum

there's a very big difference between calling everyone who donated a racist against saying that racism is behind everyone's donations.

That difference is one you ought to lean to recognise.

I don't disagree but I don't have facts so can't state them, It's good to know you have all the facts though.

It just takes a bit of observation, and then joining up facts into a coherent theme.

Barry Fish says that racism had nothing to do with any of it, yet while we're all aware of a number of similar cases where 'tragic white person' motivates people into action, no one has been able to present anything similar for 'tragic black person'.

If our society wasn't riddled with racism at all sorts of levels over just about everything, then these facts couldn't be presented.

I remember someone posting here a few years ago that the Met Police was no longer institutionally racist, and I don't think I've laughed so loud at such dumb naivety for quite a while. Our whole society is institutionally racist, it's the very cornerstone of everything which many people like to proudly state as British achievements.

[russycarps]

I remember someone posting here a few years ago that the Met Police was no longer institutionally racist, and I don't think I've laughed so loud at such dumb naivety for quite a while. Our whole society is institutionally racist, it's the very cornerstone of everything which many people like to proudly state as British achievements.

[thetime]

You have to feel sorry for the mother, thats 2 of her children thats dies now at a young age.

[jakkijaxp]

I ran the marathon (for Mind) and when I found out what had happened I donated to The Samaritans.

Maybe because I had just done the same race and it was scary and I wanted to acknowledge what had happened somehow. Maybe because we were both running for mental health charities so the story struck a chord with me.

Definitely not because I am racist though....

[jakkijaxp]

You don't hear me at all, because nowhere have I said anything about "everyone who donated being racist".

But, just trigger some thoughts, most racist acts and actions are thought by the person doing those acts and actions as not racist. Just because a person is unable to recognise their motivations doesn't change what is motivating them. The vast majority of people who like to think of themselves as not racist are racist (if only at times, and not necessarily with deliberate intent) - and I'm not excluding myself from that generalisation.

There's a great Monbiot article on the Guardian website today, about how "international law" is the new imperialism - something that I recognised myself a long time ago (along with other 'worthy' things which are used to help keep those 'less worthy' races "in their place", such as the world's economic system). These things are driven by racism, and are racist - tho most people don't recognise these facts, showing how blind people are to racism.

The racism behind the donations that have been made following the sad death of this girl is proven by the fact that similar things do not happen when the death or tragedy is a non-white person. There's no getting away from that certain fact.

[eFestivals]

Urrkkkkk. You are making me grind my teeth a bit. I know what you're saying, but it's not being phrased brilliantly. To say "The racism behind the donations...". Ouch.

How about the whole race thing is put to one side a moment, and consider the sexism angle. There have been a number of male deaths at the London marathon before. Have any of them had as much coverage? As many donations to their charity? Nope.

There's your precedent.

Care to show me where I stated that there weren't other things in the mix too, such as sexism, and empathy?

There have been similar mass out-pourings for males in the past. But the instances of these for both sexes for non-whites are far far lower than the proportion of non-whites within our society.

[jakkijaxp]

Care to show me where I stated that there weren't other things in the mix too, such as sexism, and empathy?

There have been similar mass out-pourings for males in the past. But the instances of these for both sexes for non-whites are far far lower than the proportion of non-whites within our society.

[eFestivals]

You didn't, but many of your points in this whole discussion are undeniably focusing on her race.

no I'm not actually. I'm focusing on the fact that the same doesn't happen with other races.

And just to prove the point I've been making....

She was a pretty, white, middle class female who did a lot of work for charity and had some personal tragedy in her life. The perfect storm.

A less "perfect storm" would have been a non-white. Your words, not mine.

To focus on one 'ism' over the others is a dangerous thing to do, especially in an instance like this where someone has lost their life and a hell of a lot of people just wanted to do something nice.

and yet they don't want to do something nice or as nice, or be nice, if the tragic victim is not white.

Why is it so wrong to point out that simple and clear truth??? What does it damage apart from (hopefully) racist attitudes?

[jakkijaxp]

no I'm not actually. I'm focusing on the fact that the same doesn't happen with other races.

And just to prove the point I've been making....

A less "perfect storm" would have been a non-white. Your words, not mine.

and yet they don't want to do something nice or as nice, or be nice, if the tragic victim is not white.

Why is it so wrong to point out that simple and clear truth??? What does it damage apart from (hopefully) racist attitudes?

[eFestivals]

You're not doing anything wrong by pointing out that 'clear and simple truth' (I don't really think it's that cut and dry, but things rarely are), but I don't think it should overshadow what was achieved.

Sorry, but you will never ever have me agree with an angle on things which is the basis for all that is wrong with the world.

If you don't think that moral issues "should overshadow what was achieved", then you have just justified slavery, compulsory euthanasia for anyone with a hereditary condition, and a million other repugnant things.

Racial discrimination isn't the only thing we are subconsciously conditioned with. Why is it so wrong to point out that simple and clear truth?

Feel free to point them out too.

Just don't go pretending that racism isn't a big part of what happened off the back of this woman's tragic death.

[jakkijaxp]

Sorry, but you will never ever have me agree with an angle on things which is the basis for all that is wrong with the world.

If you don't think that moral issues "should overshadow what was achieved", then you have just justified slavery, compulsory euthanasia for anyone with a hereditary condition, and a million other repugnant things.

Feel free to point them out too.

Just don't go pretending that racism isn't a big part of what happened off the back of this woman's tragic death.

[russycarps]

I have been pointing them out. I don't think you're really reading my posts properly - I'm AGREEING with you on the racism thing, just saying there are a lot of other 'ism's that need to be taken into account as well.

Hence the perfect storm part.

And as for saying I have justified slavery, eugenics and a million other repugnant things by not focusing solely on the race issue when a woman died and a lot of people wanted to do mark that somehow (even though I have clearly said that a black woman would have garnered less attention) - well that is absolutely abhorrent.

And I think you know that full well.

I donated to her charity. I am a runner and I support mental health charities. I would have donated regardless of her race, sex, age, class, etc. Many others wouldn't - but she hit a nerve in people that I think was based more on her sex, age and attractiveness more than her race.

A pretty young black girl would have got more attention than a middle-aged white man.

[jakkijaxp]

I find it odd that it took this womans death for you to donate.

[eFestivals]

And as for saying I have justified slavery, eugenics and a million other repugnant things by not focusing solely on the race issue

I never said any such thing.

I said that what has been achieved off the back of her death justifies nothing that is morally repugnant.

The same money raising achievement can be made without any of the very shit morally repugnant things that have caused the money raising achievement in this instance.

Society would be FAR better if money-raising achievements like this didn't happen at all, alongside a society that wasn't riven with racism and any of the other discriminatory isms.

If society wasn't full of discriminatory practices in the first place then the money would already exist to cover such things.

Edited May 3, 2012 by eFestivals

[jakkijaxp]

I never said any such thing.

I said that what has been achieved off the back of her death justifies nothing that is morally repugnant.

The same money raising achievement can be made without any of the very shit morally repugnant things that have caused the money raising achievement in this instance.

Society would be FAR better if money-raising achievements like this didn't happen at all, alongside a society that wasn't riven with racism and any of the other discriminatory isms.

If society wasn't full of discriminatory practices in the first place then the money would already exist to cover such things.

[eFestivals]

Oh come now. Look at how you phrased it :

You mean look how I've phased something which says something completely different to what you claimed I'd said.

For what it's worth, I can't think of a single thing that would justify anything that is morally repugnant.

Glad to hear it ... now.

We wouldn't be here if you'd not earlier said that the morally repugnant did justify the achievement.

(see above for the proof in your own words)

And over £1million was raised for a charity that needs it.

From one angle that's very good.

From the bigger view it lets society as a whole off the hook and ensures that the same need to beg for the needy remains, rather than society taking responsibility for the issues within society.

society would still be the same whether people donated money or not.

Nope. Society remains the same because people do not try to change it for the better, because they'll happily go along with the bad rather than change things to be good.

why rip apart the good things when they happen too?

because it's not a good thing.

It's only 'good' by taking the shallow view. It changes nothing for the better, it merely puts a sticking plaster on an existing wound without doing anything to cure the wound.

Just imagine the influence for change all of those donators could be, but have chosen not to be. Pay over a few quid, and pretend that everything is much better and much improved when it's not.

Lumping everyone in together and assuming everyone donated for the same knee-jerk media friendly reactions is crazy.

It is crazy. That's why I didn't do anything remotely like that.

I know a lot of runners and most of them donated something. A fairly simple nod to what could have been any one of us, done in much the same way I'm sure other groups of society do when something awful happens. There were 37,000 runners out there with Claire that day after all.

A nod to a pretty white woman, no nod to the various men who have died over the years.

Thus proving it's fuck all to do with "what could have been any one of us", because that would have also applied to those men in past years.

Stop lying to yourself, stop mis-representing what the facts are easily able to prove. It's something entirely different overall to merely being "a fairly simple nod to what could have been any one of us".

Edited May 3, 2012 by eFestivals

[jakkijaxp]

You mean look how I've phased something which says something completely different to what you claimed I'd said.

Glad to hear it ... now.

We wouldn't be here if you'd not earlier said that the morally repugnant did justify the achievement.

(see above for the proof in your own words)

From one angle that's very good.

From the bigger view it lets society as a whole off the hook and ensures that the same need to beg for the needy remains, rather than society taking responsibility for the issues within society.

Nope. Society remains the same because people do not try to change it for the better, because they'll happily go along with the bad rather than change things to be good.

because it's not a good thing.

It's only 'good' by taking the shallow view. It changes nothing for the better, it merely puts a sticking plaster on an existing wound without doing anything to cure the wound.

Just imagine the influence for change all of those donators could be, but have chosen not to be. Pay over a few quid, and pretend that everything is much better and much improved when it's not.

It is crazy. That's why I didn't do anything remotely like that.

A nod to a pretty white woman, no nod to the various men who have died over the years.

Thus proving it's fuck all to do with "what could have been any one of us", because that would have also applied to those men in past years.

Stop lying to yourself, stop mis-representing what the facts are easily able to prove. It's something entirely different overall to merely being "a fairly simple nod to what could have been any one of us".

[eFestivals]

Social media and the ease of online donation is a key reason why there has been no similar nod to others that have died in the past. Stop looking for things to be angry about.

Glad to see you're not just using race as a stick to beat this discussion with now though.

It's very little to do with social media or online donations, and far more to do with other things which then got people's reactions via social media.

You, as a runner, might have otherwise been one of the few who would have known of it otherwise (on the basis that it would most likely come up on specialist running forums). The general public at large might have vaguely known that someone had died during the marathon, if they were taking any interest in the smaller news items.

And I did not say the morally repugnant justified the achievement. We can all twist words around apparently! I said I didn't think that societies ills should overshadow this situation. And I don't. Yes, on a shallow level, a good thing has been done. But it's not at the expense of all the bad things. It's not one or the other. That's bullshit and defeatist.

Nope, just realist.

After all, for most of those who have donated it is one or the other. There is not some huge groundswell of public pressure for the charity Claire supported to have the issues it deals with picked up by the public purse, is there? The people who have donated are able to walk away feeling that they've done their bit for the cause, and now it's no longer their responsibility.

Sad, but very very true.

[jakkijaxp]

It's very little to do with social media or online donations, and far more to do with other things which then got people's reactions via social media.

You, as a runner, might have otherwise been one of the few who would have known of it otherwise (on the basis that it would most likely come up on specialist running forums). The general public at large might have vaguely known that someone had died during the marathon, if they were taking any interest in the smaller news items.

Nope, just realist.

After all, for most of those who have donated it is one or the other. There is not some huge groundswell of public pressure for the charity Claire supported to have the issues it deals with picked up by the public purse, is there? The people who have donated are able to walk away feeling that they've done their bit for the cause, and now it's no longer their responsibility.

Sad, but very very true.

Edited May 3, 2012 by jakkijaxp